Mr. October Watch Spotting

[Cloudchaser]

Great new documentary on Reggie Jackson has been out for just a few days and it's not only a good chronicling of Reggie's career but a great, nostalgic trip for any baseball fan who came of age in the 70's!

And it is fantastic watch spotting! He rocks a ceramic GMT, a 5 digit GMT, a WG Sub, a vintage Daytona, and more in the course of his interviews. Muscle cars, motorcycles, Rolex, and baseball. Good stuff!

A little long for a sports documentary but there's a lot to digest. Well worth it!

[Ballzzz]

What platform?

[Dan Pierce]

Very revealing documentary about one of the greats. It opened my eyes [wider] to some of the obstacles RJ and many others before & after have had to deal with.
The watches & cars were a nice bonus.
dP

[HERITAGE82]

Sounds great... On what platform did you watch it?

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Ballzzz

What platform?

Originally Posted by HERITAGE82

Sounds great... On what platform did you watch it?

X3. Sounds like it’s worth the watch.

[Blansky]

It's on Amazon Prime.

[Ballzzz]

Originally Posted by blansky

it's on amazon prime.

ty

[dddrees]

Somehow I just never liked Reggie Jackson.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by dddrees

Somehow I just never liked Reggie Jackson.

He actually admits to caring what people think and I think that had something to do to with agreeing to do the documentary.

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by dddrees

Somehow I just never liked Reggie Jackson.

Never cared for the MAN either, but the PLAYER is hard to argue with.

[dddrees]

Originally Posted by pickettt

Never cared for the MAN either, but the PLAYER is hard to argue with.

That's the only thing that has me even considering watching this thing.

Pete Rose was actually at one time one of the players I liked the most, well that was until he was found guilty of what he did. That and later finding out what kind of a person he is really like. So what do I know anyway.

[dddrees]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

He actually admits to caring what people think and I think that had something to do to with agreeing to do the documentary.

I have a real hard time taking this statement from this guy seriously, except that possibly he might want to now cleanup his legacy or somehow get a chance to somehow make money from this documentary. Either way he always came across as only thinking about himself. All I can remember is getting sick about hearing him talk about himself. It's been decades ago but I remember getting a kick out of seeing Billy Martin bench him.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by dddrees

I have a real hard time taking this statement from this guy seriously, except that possibly he might want to now cleanup his legacy or somehow get a chance to somehow make money from this documentary. Either way he always came across as only thinking about himself. All I can remember is getting sick about hearing him talk about himself. It's been decades ago but I remember getting a kick out of seeing Billy Martin bench him.

Time can help with some of those older perspectives. In 2023., our memories and views of Billy Martin are different than what their reality was then. I would say that if you got a "kick" out of Billy Martin benching Reggie, this documentary is made for you. Watch Reggie's sit down with Hank Aaron or Julius Erving and you begin to see the man a little differently.

Billy Martin was a raging alcoholic who drank himself to death while still in his 50's. But in 1977, he was still viewed as a scrappy OG everyman.

Watch Reggie's story and see his experience, and you might just see to what extent our views were shaped by a game still struggling to properly contextualize young black professional athletes in America. He played his minor league days in the segregated south.

Reggie doesn't apologize at all for being who he is; that's not what it's about. It's about seeing his story and relating to the fact that we'd all have reacted how he did. Reggie is still Reggie. Very much.

The legacies have played out. Billy Martin was an alcholic racist POS. Reggie is highly respected.by the games' greats, and a HOF player. Might be time to reconsider some of those dated notions (which actually might be the entire point of the doc).

[dddrees]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

Time can help with some of those older perspectives. In 2023., our memories and views of Billy Martin are different than what their reality was then. I would say that if you got a "kick" out of Billy Martin benching Reggie, this documentary is made for you. Watch Reggie's sit down with Hank Aaron or Julius Erving and you begin to see the man a little differently.

Billy Martin was a raging alcoholic who drank himself to death while still in his 50's. But in 1977, he was still viewed as a scrappy OG everyman.

Watch Reggie's story and see his experience, and you might just see to what extent our views were shaped by a game still struggling to properly contextualize young black professional athletes in America. He played his minor league days in the segregated south.

Reggie doesn't apologize at all for being who he is; that's not what it's about. It's about seeing his story and relating to the fact that we'd all have reacted how he did. Reggie is still Reggie. Very much.

The legacies have played out. Billy Martin was an alcholic racist POS. Reggie is highly respected.by the games' greats, and a HOF player. Might be time to reconsider some of those dated notions (which actually might be the entire point of the doc).

I don’t disagree with you at all when it comes to Billy Martin or how Blacks were treated.

If I remember and it’s been decades so I could be wrong but Reggie got benched for showing no effort in the outfield.

We’ll see, not to keen on someone as I said who only thought about and talked about himself.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by dddrees

I don’t disagree with you at all when it comes to Billy Martin or how Blacks were treated.

If I remember and it’s been decades so I could be wrong but Reggie got benched for showing no effort in the outfield.

We’ll see, not to keen on someone as I said who only thought about and talked about himself.

It's been decades, and we were young then. You're wrong about that play, though, and the entire sequence. Martin used that sequence, and his managerial authority to isolate Reggie.

Muhammad Ali spent a fair bit of time talking about himself, as did Jordan, LeBron, Jim Brown, Carl Lewis, Mike Tyson, Usain Bolt, Lewis Hamilton, Tiger Woods, John McEnroe, and just about any great from their sport. It's part of what makes them great.

You know who didn't talk about himself much? Jackie Robinson, because that's what was thought to be needed from "the first."

You were influenced as a younger man to resist Reggie because he was simulataneously egocentric and surly. He met the times with anger and we like our black men whiter than that!

Reggie delivered for those Yankee teams that he was alleged to have destroyed from within. The narrative of yesteryear gave way to Reggie's 500+ HRs, 5 WS titles, and his undeniable influence on the next generations (including the Jeter led Yankees).

In fact, Billie Martin owed the rest of his dysfunctional, addicted, mean-spirited career to what Reggie did for the teams that lengthened Martin's run of destroying team morale.

[dddrees]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

It's been decades, and we were young then. You're wrong about that play, though, and the entire sequence. Martin used that sequence, and his managerial authority to isolate Reggie.

Muhammad Ali spent a fair bit of time talking about himself, as did Jordan, LeBron, Jim Brown, Carl Lewis, Mike Tyson, Usain Bolt, Lewis Hamilton, Tiger Woods, John McEnroe, and just about any great from their sport. It's part of what makes them great.

You know who didn't talk about himself much? Jackie Robinson, because that's what was thought to be needed from "the first."

You were influenced as a younger man to resist Reggie because he was simulataneously egocentric and surly. He met the times with anger and we like our black men whiter than that!

Reggie delivered for those Yankee teams that he was alleged to have destroyed from within. The narrative of yesteryear gave way to Reggie's 500+ HRs, 5 WS titles, and his undeniable influence on the next generations (including the Jeter led Yankees).

In fact, Billie Martin owed the rest of his dysfunctional, addicted, mean-spirited career to what Reggie did for the teams that lengthened Martin's run of destroying team morale.

My memory of Reggie is he did that before he played on the Yankees as well. Yeah, I’m not to found of anyone no matter the color who can’t help but talk about himself.

[Bstewart]

Originally Posted by dddrees

My memory of Reggie is he did that before he played on the Yankees as well. Yeah, I’m not to found of anyone no matter the color who can’t help but talk about himself.

Just curious - how old are you?

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by dddrees

I don’t disagree with you at all when it comes to Billy Martin or how Blacks were treated.

If I remember and it’s been decades so I could be wrong but Reggie got benched for showing no effort in the outfield.

We’ll see, not to keen on someone as I said who only thought about and talked about himself.

This is certainly a part of it.

[dddrees]

Originally Posted by Bstewart

Just curious - how old are you?

Why should that matter? Make that case first, because I’m curious why in your opinion that even matters.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by dddrees

Why should that matter? Make that case first, because I’m curious why in your opinion that even matters.

It does matter. As does where you grew up, and in what communities. The lens through which we viewed someone 40+ years ago, someone we never knew beyond what a vested third party wrote or said, is often myopic, a product of both youthful naievete and societal influence.

It's a fine line. If you find yourself with negative dated opinions about people you actually never knew, then you'll likely lump Reggie with Frank Robinson and Bobby Bonds. The narratives are products of the news cycle of that day.

What I've found is that people of a certain era tend to rely on antiquated opinions created by the journalists of that day, while quickly discounting modern journalists as fake.

The sit downs Reggie had with Hank Aaron (obviously not long before Hank passed) in the documentary, at Hank's kitchen counter, say it better than I ever could.

Do yourself a favor. Have a dram and watch the doc. Or at least re-read the history of those A's and Yankees teams (you're essentially siding with Finley and Martin).

At least that way you'll be better informed on the subject.

He asked how old you are because you are making yourself seem older than you are.

[dddrees]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

It does matter. As does where you grew up, and in what communities. The lens through which we viewed someone 40+ years ago, someone we never knew beyond what a vested third party wrote or said, is often myopic, a product of both youthful naievete and societal influence.

It's a fine line. If you find yourself with negative dated opinions about people you actually never knew, then you'll likely lump Reggie with Frank Robinson and Bobby Bonds. The narratives are products of the news cycle of that day.

What I've found is that people of a certain era tend to rely on antiquated opinions created by the journalists of that day, while quickly discounting modern journalists as fake.

The sit downs Reggie had with Hank Aaron (obviously not long before Hank passed) in the documentary, at Hank's kitchen counter, say it better than I ever could.

Do yourself a favor. Have a dram and watch the doc. Or at least re-read the history of those A's and Yankees teams (you're essentially siding with Finley and Martin).

At least that way you'll be better informed on the subject.

He asked how old you are because you are making yourself seem older than you are.

But I don’t put Reggie Jackson in the same group as Frank Robinson, maybe I missed something but as far as I can remember those two just don’t belong in the same group. I have much more respect for Frank Robinson. Although I know of Bobby Bonds I just don’t know much about the man other than he was a pretty talented ball player so I have no reason to lump him in with a show boat whose only interest seemed to be about himself.

Oh, hell I get things wrong all the time, that’s why spending time here can sometimes be worth it in the first place. In fact that’s part of the reason I take the approach I often take. People don’t always like it, but often I’ve found you’ll get much more feedback and more information that way. Heck you yourself didn’t go into much of an explanation and probably wouldn’t had I not even posted in the first place. That sir is exchanging information, and that doesn’t often take place when all parties agree with each other. By the way people do that regardless of their age for various reasons, get things wrong that is.

I may very well take a look at it, we’ll just see.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by pickettt

This is certainly a part of it.

Ted Williams was similarly accused. He's the greatest hitter of all time (and maybe the greatest fighter pilot and sport fisherman too) but he was an asshole to nearly everyone around him. The "press" infuriated him and he returned the favor. By all acounts, even his own, he was a selfish and arrogant jerk.

But he's Ted Williams. And a reputation for "dogging it" in the outfield never changed that.

Baseball has a term, "eye wash." It's things players do to either look good/stylish or things players do because some people care more about appearances than outcomes.

If someone singles to RF and the RFer doesn't "hustle" to the ball, everyone on the field understands that it's still a single regardless of how hard he runs to it. So much of "hustle" in baseball is actually "eye wash."

Make sure your 40+ years old opinion isn't based on the eye wash of yesteryear.

I challenge anyone to show examples of Reggie Jackson, Ted Willliams, Frank Robinson or Bobby Bonds "dogging it" when a real outcome was on the line. What you'll actually find in those scenarios is passion and even fight.

"Charlie Hustle" is a myth. Baseball players who go all out all the time are eye wash...and often injured. The fans sure do love it, though!

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

It does matter. As does where you grew up, and in what communities. The lens through which we viewed someone 40+ years ago, someone we never knew beyond what a vested third party wrote or said, is often myopic, a product of both youthful naievete and societal influence.

It's a fine line. If you find yourself with negative dated opinions about people you actually never knew, then you'll likely lump Reggie with Frank Robinson and Bobby Bonds. The narratives are products of the news cycle of that day.

What I've found is that people of a certain era tend to rely on antiquated opinions created by the journalists of that day, while quickly discounting modern journalists as fake.

The sit downs Reggie had with Hank Aaron (obviously not long before Hank passed) in the documentary, at Hank's kitchen counter, say it better than I ever could.

Do yourself a favor. Have a dram and watch the doc. Or at least re-read the history of those A's and Yankees teams (you're essentially siding with Finley and Martin).

At least that way you'll be better informed on the subject.

He asked how old you are because you are making yourself seem older than you are.

If the suggestion is that people have/had a particular view of Reggie Jackson’s character because it had been framed for them by the attitude toward black players at the time, I would disagree. Whether or not he became a different person later in his life is a different argument. I don’t have first hand information as to his “unlikeability.”, but I’m one degree of separation from it.

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

Ted Williams was similarly accused. He's the greatest hitter of all time (and maybe the greatest fighter pilot and sport fisherman too) but he was an asshole to nearly everyone around him. The "press" infuriated him and he returned the favor. By all acounts, even his own, he was a selfish and arrogant jerk.

But he's Ted Williams. And a reputation for "dogging it" in the outfield never changed that.

Baseball has a term, "eye wash." It's things players do to either look good/stylish or things players do because some people care more about appearances than outcomes.

If someone singles to RF and the RFer doesn't "hustle" to the ball, everyone on the field understands that it's still a single regardless of how hard he runs to it. So much of "hustle" in baseball is actually "eye wash."

Make sure your 40+ years old opinion isn't based on the eye wash of yesteryear.

I challenge anyone to show examples of Reggie Jackson, Ted Willliams, Frank Robinson or Bobby Bonds "dogging it" when a real outcome was on the line. What you'll actually find in those scenarios is passion and even fight.

"Charlie Hustle" is a myth. Baseball players who go all out all the time are eye wash...and often injured. The fans sure do love it, though!

I think your concentration on demographic is misplaced.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by dddrees

But I don’t put Reggie Jackson in the same group as Frank Robinson, maybe I missed something but as far as I can remember those two just don’t belong in the same group. I have much more respect for Frank Robinson. Although I know of Bobby Bonds I just don’t know much about the man other than he was a pretty talented ball player so I have no reason to lump him in with a show boat whose only interest seemed to be about himself.

Oh, hell I get things wrong all the time, that’s why spending time here can sometimes be worth it in the first place. In fact that’s part of the reason I take the approach I often take. People don’t always like it, but often I’ve found you’ll get much more feedback and more information that way. Heck you yourself didn’t go into much of an explanation and probably wouldn’t had I not even posted in the first place. That sir is exchanging information, and that doesn’t often take place when all parties agree with each other. By the way people do that regardless of their age for various reasons, get things wrong that is.

I may very well take a look at it, we’ll just see.

You are 100% correct; I expanded because of your input. Thank you for engaging with an open mind!

I mention Robinson and Bonds specifically because they were of that time. Both were known more as the players you describe than was Reggie. And neither won titles, very likely because they struggled with teammates. Reggie crossed racial lines in the clubhouse better than they did. Many of Reggie's closest friends on those teams were white.

Robinson was a better all around player than Reggie, as was Bonds (Barry Bonds' father incidentally). Robinson is a HOFer (with better stats than Reggie) and Booby Bonds was close.

But not many people won 5 WS as a cleanup hitter. Pretty short list. Barry Bonds sure isn't on it.

There have been many Octobers in baseball but only one "Mr. October." That will always say more than one play in RF in 1977 where Billy Martin set him up on purpose (look at where he was positioned on that play).

[dddrees]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

You are 100% correct; I expanded because of your input. Thank you for engaging with an open mind!

I mention Robinson and Bonds specifically because they were of that time. Both were known more as the players you describe than was Reggie. And neither won titles, very likely because they struggled with teammates. Reggie crossed racial lines in the clubhouse better than they did. Many of Reggie's closest friends on those teams were white.

Robinson was a better all around player than Reggie, as was Bonds (Barry Bonds' father incidentally). Robinson is a HOFer (with better stats than Reggie) and Booby Bonds was close.

But not many people won 5 WS as a cleanup hitter. Pretty short list. Barry Bonds sure isn't on it.

There have been many Octobers in baseball but only one "Mr. October." That will always say more than one play in RF in 1977 where Billy Martin set him up on purpose (look at where he was positioned on that play).

I never said Jackson wasn’t a great player, now did I? I just don’t think much of him as a man.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by pickettt

I think your concentration on demographic is misplaced.

Consider the totality of the reserve clause, the rise of Latin American camps (invented by the Dodgers), the international draft rules, and the resultant significant decline in African American population in MLB, and it could be said that my focus on demographic might seem more placed.

When the reserve clause was overturned, the percentage of Black, American born players was nearing 20%. It is now hovering around 6%.

The African American talent pool did not get smaller or less talented in that time period. Something happened. What was it?

MLB focused on signing international players who they could control longer and for cheaper, and not only because of the economics. Those players also happened to be far more reliant (due to language and culture) on teams than did American born players.

Modern baseball fans have come to understand that. Older fans still have their head in the sand. Demographic matters in baseball, especially as things like the WBC make the game international.

Without realizing it, focusing on (purported) 40+ year old personality traits of someone you don't know brings the demographic into play as much as anything else.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by dddrees

I never said Jackson wasn’t a great player, now did I? I just don’t think much of him as a man.

I thought we had agreed that Jackson was a great player but not as good as Robinson? That's what I had thought.

I don't know Reggie personally and would feel very strange about judging "him as a man."

That's actually much of my point. You don't know him as a man at all. You know OF the 40+ year old PERSONA of "Reggie." You sound like my grandad talking about Ali.

As a man? Do you judge others on what you've heard or read or do you reserve judgement until you know them?

We don't know these people. We judge them from afar, in a way that doesn't pass the first sniff test in the real world. And then we cling to that notion for the rest of our days. And as part of that process, we become immune to how weird it sounds to judge them "as a man."

Anyway, Reggie Jackson, the baseball player, a man I don't know personally and can't vouch for "as a man," has quite a few Rolex watches in his watch collection. Also some cool cars. I learned that from an interesting baseball documentary someone else I don't know made about him.

But I don't think his documentary will be as widely viewed as Dahmer's or anything, unfortunately.

[dddrees]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

I thought we had agreed that Jackson was a great player but not as good as Robinson? That's what I had thought.

I don't know Reggie personally and would feel very strange about judging "him as a man."

That's actually much of my point. You don't know him as a man at all. You know OF the 40+ year old PERSONA of "Reggie." You sound like my grandad talking about Ali.

As a man? Do you judge others on what you've heard or read or do you reserve judgement until you know them?

We don't know these people. We judge them from afar, in a way that doesn't pass the first sniff test in the real world. And then we cling to that notion for the rest of our days. And as part of that process, we become immune to how weird it sounds to judge them "as a man."

Anyway, Reggie Jackson, the baseball player, a man I don't know personally and can't vouch for "as a man," has quite a few Rolex watches in his watch collection. Also some cool cars. I learned that from an interesting baseball documentary someone else I don't know made about him.

But I don't think his documentary will be as widely viewed as Dahmer's or anything, unfortunately.

You’re right typically we don’t know these people and many people for that matter that well. But I do know what I saw him do and what I heard him say over and over again and from that bit of what I saw and heard I didn’t like him as a man nor a person.

People make judgements all the time, and yes my judgement can only be based on what I saw and heard.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by pickettt

If the suggestion is that people have/had a particular view of Reggie Jackson’s character because it had been framed for them by the attitude toward black players at the time, I would disagree. Whether or not he became a different person later in his life is a different argument. I don’t have first hand information as to his “unlikeability.”, but I’m one degree of separation from it.

That is my suggestion exactly. I have no idea what person he was or is or if that's changed.

If you think Curt Flood's killing of the reserve clause didn't impact how the next generation of black players was treated, I (or Occam's Razor) certainly can't change your mind.

Read about what Al Campanis thought. Then look at how he acted relative to the signing of young players and how he changed the Dodgers and the industry as a result of those views.

He was proud of those changes and was open about why he made them.

To view that in a vacuum and think that it didn't impact that generation in the ways now commonly accepted is to choose to be misinformed.

Baseball has changed more in the last 10 years than it did in the 85 preceeding. But the fans who stopped caring 11 years ago or more still cling to the same tropes (in this case, the black man didn't hustle in the outfield so should be judged as a man).