You are not really tipping if you pay with a card.

[VictorGMT]

Really sounds like the opposite problem to me.

There is an payment agreement in place between the server and the establishment, and part of the calculation is the tip.

But the servers can divert the cash tips from the calculation, while all credit card tips are processed via the agreement. And so we are encouraged to tip in cash, to help the servers circumvent the payment agreement.

And of course, the server diverting the cash tip and avoiding federal income tax is the hero while the owner on the hook long term for the rent/mortgage, furniture and fixtures, food costs, base wages, utilities and business risk is the villain.

[Andad]

This tipping thing has been previously beaten up.

It will never be resolved here.

But it does allow us to see the nature of some.

[MrGoat]

Originally Posted by Andad

This tipping thing has been previously beaten up.

It will never be resolved here.

But it does allow us to see the nature of some with death threats et al.

I guess I missed the “death threats”. People here really get that bent out of shape about tipping?

I will say I had some fairly strong views on it on another thread but many points have been made that have made me rethink my tipping habits (including this thread) but I’ve never witnessed a death threat that I can remember over one of these threads.


Sent from my Apple privacy invasion product

[Star Ferry]

Originally Posted by MrGoat

I guess I missed the “death threats”. People here really get that bent out of shape about tipping?

I will say I had some fairly strong views on it on another thread but many points have been made that have made me rethink my tipping habits (including this thread) but I’ve never witnessed a death threat that I can remember over one of these threads.


Sent from my Apple privacy invasion product

There weren’t any. Ignore and carry on

[MrGoat]

Originally Posted by Star Ferry

There weren’t any. Ignore and carry on

Clearly as once I asked the post was edited.


Sent from my Apple privacy invasion product

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by VictorGMT

Really sounds like the opposite problem to me.

There is an payment agreement in place between the server and the establishment, and part of the calculation is the tip.

But the servers can divert the cash tips from the calculation, while all credit card tips are processed via the agreement. And so we are encouraged to tip in cash, to help the servers circumvent the payment agreement.

And of course, the server diverting the cash tip and avoiding federal income tax is the hero while the owner on the hook long term for the rent/mortgage, furniture and fixtures, food costs, base wages, utilities and business risk is the villain.

A few points: I the consumer never made any payment agreement to fund his business operations. He uses my gratuity to subsidize the minimum wage that most all other businesses are bound by, and pays his employees with it. The crappy part about it is that everyone in this scenario views not the employer, but the customer whose tip amount they don't approve of. The customer, who's entered no contracts outside of the legal obligation to pay for the meal. It really is a wild scene.

[VictorGMT]

Originally Posted by pickettt

A few points: I the consumer never made any payment agreement to fund his business operations. He uses my gratuity to subsidize the minimum wage that most all other businesses are bound by, and pays his employees with it. The crappy part about it is that everyone in this scenario views not the employer, but the customer whose tip amount they don't approve of. The customer, who's entered no contracts outside of the legal obligation to pay for the meal. It really is a wild scene.

Yeah, pretty much what I said.

Employee agreed to an arrangement with employer, and circumvents it, and thus the hero.

I get it though. Poverty = Piety. One of the most destructive beliefs extent.

That server has no high value skills and thus has a RIGHT to breach the agreements they accepted.

If they were an employee who had developed high value skills, they would be entitled to their agreement OR LESS.

[330ci]

Originally Posted by VictorGMT

Yeah, pretty much what I said.

Employee agreed to an arrangement with employer, and circumvents it, and thus the hero.

I get it though. Poverty = Piety. One of the most destructive beliefs extent.

That server has no high value skills and thus has a RIGHT to breach the agreements they accepted.

If they were an employee who had developed high value skills, they would be entitled to their agreement OR LESS.

Who gives a crap about the agreement between the employee and the employer. When I leave a tip, it is for my server. That tip is an agreement between the server and I. Any tip I give is expected to go above and beyond whatever meager pay their employer gives. Not as a subsidy to their establishment. If they want my tip to go towards employee pay, they need to structure the menu with tips included in the food price so they can pay them a decent wage plus benefits.


The fact that you think people in the service industry aren't entitled to the money they earned is despicable. I am not expected to pay anyone else's wage in any other business who's services I utilize, so in the best interest of this crappy system, my money should go to where it says it is.

If a business owner is too dumb to come up with a proper business plan, why should it come at a cost to the employees? Personally, I couldn't give 2 shits if the restaurant I'm eating in goes under if they aren't treating their staff as if they're the lifeblood of the business.

I can cook my own food if it means someone is going to be stuffing their pockets while hardworking men and women have to fight for what they earned.

As far as I'm concerned, the general public is a bunch of assholes, and servers have to deal with them all day. I make far more than most of them and if their pay was equal to mine, I still wouldn't trade jobs with them. Just because it isn't the most advanced job in the world, doesn't mean it isn't tough.


The fact that people are talking about what the max a server should make an hour is equally ridiculous. Bring up a higher minimum and everyone cries socialism, meanwhile this thread is promoting communism lol ��


If the owner is jealous of the servers wages, put on an apron and earn that money. using tips to pay employees is some Pimp shit though. I can get good food just about anywhere and cook for myself cheaper, these people really need to realize I go out to support their business and staff. Not one or the other.

As for the value of the skills, the market determines that. If an employee accepts $10/hr that breaks my heart, but ultimately on them. But if I want to give them $20 because they put a smile on my face after dealing with work all day, and the owner took the rest of their credit card tips and $10 of mine to subsidize their wages, leaving them with nothing extra. I'd lose my shit. One of the great things about having money is being able to choose where it goes. I can think of half a dozen ways to funnel money out of this credit tip system without technically committing fraud. I certainly wouldn't expect peoples morals to be above it if they think this is acceptable in the first place.

Tipping is not a complicated system and the only reason people do it, is to embezzle. I've spoke with enough tipped workers to know how these owners and managers operate.

Taking credit card tips is dishonest at best and criminal at worst. Can't imagine ever supporting this crap though.

[DLRIDES]

Originally Posted by MILGAUSS88

You are not really tipping if you pay with a card. At least in some states.
My daughter recently got her first job, and it was at a restaurant.
This is a national chain, and not fast food.
It pays $10/hr which surprised me, as I know several people that have waited tables and few got more than the $4.50/hr minimum wage that our state has for jobs that are tip supported. (They still have to make the federal minimum wages after tips.)

Well, after my daughter had been there a few weeks, she found out that tips paid by card are applied to her $10/hour pay. With the company paying any shortfall of the $10/hour.
If the tip was paid in cash they could keep it.
I did some research and found out yes this is possible.
So, if you truly want to tip your waiter/waitress, keep this in mind.

While doing research, I also found out that required gratuities, don't necessarily go the waiting staff either.

Thanks for posting, I was not aware of this.

[m j b]

Originally Posted by 330ci

Who gives a crap about the...

I don't always agree with my fellow BMW enthusiast here, but I like the way he expresses himself with no cares about who he might piss off. LOL

The obvious (to me) solution for this, is that the establishment should clearly state on the menu and posted above the urinal, how tips are treated/embezzled so that the patrons may act accordingly.

[mjm700]

Originally Posted by MILGAUSS88

You are not really tipping if you pay with a card. At least in some states.
My daughter recently got her first job, and it was at a restaurant.
This is a national chain, and not fast food.
It pays $10/hr which surprised me, as I know several people that have waited tables and few got more than the $4.50/hr minimum wage that our state has for jobs that are tip supported. (They still have to make the federal minimum wages after tips.)

Well, after my daughter had been there a few weeks, she found out that tips paid by card are applied to her $10/hour pay. With the company paying any shortfall of the $10/hour.
If the tip was paid in cash they could keep it.
I did some research and found out yes this is possible.
So, if you truly want to tip your waiter/waitress, keep this in mind.

While doing research, I also found out that required gratuities, don't necessarily go the waiting staff either.

YES - I had the exact same experience last summer when my son had a summer job in DC. It was not a big tipping restaurant, so the tips never were enough to get him to minimum wage. Meaning he never saw a single tip.

Very different than pooling tips. I think a total fraud on customers who think they are giving a little extra to employees, not simply offsetting the employer's expenses. Just raise the price if that is really necessary. At least that is on the up and up.

In all honesty, it was a summer job for my son to make a little spending money for college, but i can see how it would really impact employees.

[The explosion of tipping for everything is a totally separate topic. No, I am not tipping for taking a muffin out of a case and handing it to me...]

***DC actually passed a ballot measure last month (initiative 82), which eliminates the ability to offset tips against minimum wage phased over the next 5 years.

[mjm700]

Originally Posted by m j b

I don't always agree with my fellow BMW enthusiast here, but I like the way he expresses himself with no cares about who he might piss off. LOL

The obvious (to me) solution for this, is that the establishment should clearly state on the menu and posted above the urinal, how tips are treated/embezzled so that the patrons may act accordingly.

[Runnin' Rebel]

I know a number of Hotel Workers in Las Vegas -
For the casino food and beverage workers the IRS has implemented an outrageous tip compliance plan that they have instituted for cocktail/food servers and bartenders. The IRS has forced an arbitrarily calculated per hour cash tip program they think these workers make per hour depending on what shift they work.

As an example, a casino cocktail server or bartender that works a swing shift which is usually 16:00 or there about until midnight or 1am give or take what 8 hours would be after the start time is and the IRS says they are making 25.00 per hour in tips,( example ) and which may or less be true for some. Some make more some make less depending on location of their station.

The casino corporations are obligated to tax that worker on what the IRS says they think they make in tips per hour and it effects their paycheck with the new compliance amounts. Some of the workers receive a much smaller pay check or no check due to the new regulations because the new compliance amount is now being counted as income and taxed accordingly on the paycheck.

Big fight has ensued between the unions and IRS and hopefully they both come to an agreement on a fair compliance amount for all workers receiving cash tips. I’m all for the workers that pay a FAIR share of taxes on their actual cash tips but some are getting run over by big government and some are doing ok.

The IRS compliance is voluntary for workers and they have to sign legal papers, but for those who opt out of the compliance program the IRS said they will be automatically audited and better keep extremely accurate records of what cash tips they have made on work days. Most have signed the documents.

Also during conventions, banquets and reception parties in the hotel convention centers the hotel is charging a 24% service charge on all food and beverage during a hosted ( free bar and food that whatever corporations like Amazon pay for attendees ) party. The only problem the workers that work it get 15.5% and the hotel locks up the rest per the CBA that was signed between the union and hotel. That needs to change.

Recently I was at Caesar’s Palace at a conference and it was a cash bar and they now use only a cashless system, credit card only, no more cash bars. Those bartenders receive what ever tip you leave them on the credit card receipt and that can’t go to anyone but that particular worker. They’re able to keep the full tip amount and are paid right after the event in cash by the hotel and it’s easy to verify via the paper work shift report at conclusion of event.

[subtona]

Originally Posted by MILGAUSS88

That's kind of rude.
As I mentioned, I know several people that have waited tables.
I realize how hard the work is.
And I prefer that my tip goes to supplement their income, not subsidize the restaurant for their pay.

I thought some other people might feel the same way, and like to make sure their waiter receives the tip as well.
(This does not apply to California, as mentioned above. But there are 49 other states. Sorry if there are other exceptions I am not aware of.)

I didn’t take it as rude. It is a fantastic movie scene where a debate ensues over tipping in defense of the server.


Personally I believe and fight for fair wages and find it disgusting that the employer would circumvent the minimum wage laws by Treating their employees that way.