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Old 4 October 2020, 03:42 AM   #1
Winzy
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Does 1665 MKI Without HEV Exist?

Hi All,

First time to the forum. Appreciate all the input.

I recently ran into a 1665 MKI Without HEV. Does such watch really exists? Any idea what is the story behind this vintage?
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Old 4 October 2020, 06:13 AM   #2
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Yes, they do! Post some pix!!!
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Old 4 October 2020, 07:20 AM   #3
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I believe there was such a thing. Google a writer called Perezcope and you’ll find a comprehensive write-up.
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Old 4 October 2020, 08:12 AM   #4
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Welcome, you start very expensive ;-)
Yes, they exist and are extremely rare!


Photo from 'The Vitage Concept'


Description from 'The Vitage Concept'
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Old 4 October 2020, 08:18 AM   #5
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Does 1665 MKI Without HEV Exist?

I asked for the price ..... This 1665 DRSD MK1 non-valve is priced at USD450,000 (status mid August 2020)
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Old 4 October 2020, 03:10 PM   #6
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Bmb15. That’s the watch I came across at Central, Hong Kong. Will try to share more pics if they would allow me to take a few shots of it.
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Old 4 October 2020, 05:39 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by bmb15 View Post
I asked for the price ..... This 1665 DRSD MK1 non-valve is priced at USD450,000 (status mid August 2020)
Compared to million dollar Daytonas, this is good value.
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Old 4 October 2020, 05:58 PM   #8
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Compared to million dollar Daytonas, this is good value.

You say "good value" = not expensive?
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Old 4 October 2020, 06:11 PM   #9
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Here are some shots of this 1665 Mk1 w/o HEV







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Old 4 October 2020, 06:19 PM   #10
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Old 4 October 2020, 06:44 PM   #11
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Does 1665 MKI Without HEV Exist?

To start authentification of Double Red Sea-Dwellers here you find a very useful summary of information:
http://www.drsd.com/watch-info/

If you visit the seller, also take photos and a video under UV light. Also macros of all dial areas are very helpful.

In case you really consider to buy this watch, I recommend you to personally bring this very rare DRSD for authentification to Rolex in Geneva.

Of course you should also make a contract with the seller, in case parts of this watch are not genuine, especially the case w/o HEV, but also the dial, hands, bezel insert, bracelet, and caliber. The crystal (should be a superdomed T39 plexi) is not so important at that price level, you can try to get a genuine one later. But an original T39 gives you a stunning view onto the dial, not comparable with Rolex service crystals.

I hope that helps you to start, waiting for news.
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Old 4 October 2020, 08:03 PM   #12
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Does 1665 MKI Without HEV Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rootbeer7 View Post
I believe there was such a thing. Google a writer called Perezcope and you’ll find a comprehensive write-up.
Yes, here it is ...
https://www.google.de/amp/s/perezcop...ing-watch/amp/
https://www.google.de/amp/s/perezcop...e-by-side/amp/
... also with references therein.
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Old 5 October 2020, 11:26 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winzy View Post
Hi All,

First time to the forum. Appreciate all the input.

I recently ran into a 1665 MKI Without HEV. Does such watch really exists? Any idea what is the story behind this vintage?

Yes, this type of Sea-Dweller exists. There are two types though.

First there are Single Red Sea-Dwellers (SRSD) from the 1.6 million range which were born without valve before Rolex learned of the issues posed by helium. Some SRSDs were later updated with a valve and given to SEALAB 3 Aquanauts and personnel (around Oct. 1968).

The second type are non-valve Sea-Dwellers from the 1.7 million range. These cases were manufactured before Rolex learned of the issues posed by helium. Once it became clear that a helium valve was needed, Rolex produced three new batches of watches with 2.117, 2.128 and 2.247 million case numbers, all with the Patent Pending casebacks. Many of these watches were given to U.S. Navy divers and commercial divers for testing purposes.

All this while the 1.7 million SD cases remained unused. After the valve proved viable, Rolex manufactured the 2.6 million SDs. At the same time, they retrofitted the valve to the earlier 1.7 million cases and began selling the Sea-Dweller to the general public.

1.7 million non-valve SDs have movement numbers in the D800k range. This is a clear indication these watches were assembled in 1970/71. It is unknown why they don't have a valve but given the production date they are by no means prototypes as often claimed.

The following example was sold in November 1971:

https://www.kaplans.se/sv/auktioner/2068/vara/696331


Cheers

Jose
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Old 5 October 2020, 11:34 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pereztroika View Post
Yes, this type of Sea-Dweller exists. There are two types though.

First there are Single Red Sea-Dwellers (SRSD) from the 1.6 million range which were born without valve before Rolex learned of the issues posed by helium. Some SRSDs were later updated with a valve and given to SEALAB 3 Aquanauts and personnel (around Oct. 1968).

The second type are non-valve Sea-Dwellers from the 1.7 million range. These cases were manufactured before Rolex learned of the issues posed by helium. Once it became clear that a helium valve was needed, Rolex produced three new batches of watches with 2.117, 2.128 and 2.247 million case numbers, all with the Patent Pending casebacks. Many of these watches were given to U.S. Navy divers and commercial divers for testing purposes.

All this while the 1.7 million SD cases remained unused. After the valve proved viable, Rolex manufactured the 2.6 million SDs. At the same time, they retrofitted the valve to the earlier 1.7 million cases and began selling the watches to the general public.

1.7 million non-valve SDs have movement numbers in the D800k range. This is a clear indication these watches were assembled in 1970/71. It is unknown why they don't have a valve but given the production date they are by no means prototypes as often claimed.

The following example was sold in November 1971:

https://www.kaplans.se/sv/auktioner/2068/vara/696331


Cheers

Jose
That's awesome information - I never knew that the movement serial numbers could be traced to certain time periods, is there any reference for this?
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Old 5 October 2020, 11:42 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by interestedwatcher View Post
That's awesome information - I never knew that the movement serial numbers could be traced to certain time periods, is there any reference for this?
Yes it is possible to trace the numbers back based on the serial numbers and other details. Here's a little except from my database:

1967
– 1602913: D73,158 (ROW, non-valve, Bradley)
– 1602915: 64,14X (ROW, non-valve, Koblick)
– 1602922: D71,617 (ROW)
– 1602926: D69,145 (ROW, non-valve)

1967?
– 1719767: D803,643 (non-valve)
– 1719785: D831,617 (non-valve)
– 1719786: D796,549 (non-valve)
– 1719787: D233564 (non-valve)
– 1721685: D834,144 (non-valve, sold in Nov. 1971)
– 1759659: D829,517 (non-valve, altered with SRSD dial)

1968
– 1820177: D69,043 (Dr. Ralph W. Brauer)

1969
– 2117410: D397,445
– 2117471: D362,707
– 2117475: D394,669

1969
– 2128245: D390,518
– 2128269: D363,266
– 2128275: D377,731

1969
– 2247966: D548,691
– 2247986: D547,409
– 2247995: D549,761

1970/71
– 2665630: D804,035
– 2665650: D832,967
– 2665706: D837,993


I wrote two extensive articles on this topic:

The Sea-Dweller Chronicles: Genesis Of The Decompressing Watch

The Sea-Dweller Chronicles: Dry Run And Teaming Up With Comex


Cheers

Jose
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Old 5 October 2020, 02:49 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pereztroika View Post
Yes it is possible to trace the numbers back based on the serial numbers and other details. Here's a little except from my database:

1967
– 1602913: D73,158 (ROW, non-valve, Bradley)
– 1602915: 64,14X (ROW, non-valve, Koblick)
– 1602922: D71,617 (ROW)
– 1602926: D69,145 (ROW, non-valve)

1967?
– 1719767: D803,643 (non-valve)
– 1719785: D831,617 (non-valve)
– 1719786: D796,549 (non-valve)
– 1719787: D233564 (non-valve)
– 1721685: D834,144 (non-valve, sold in Nov. 1971)
– 1759659: D829,517 (non-valve, altered with SRSD dial)

1968
– 1820177: D69,043 (Dr. Ralph W. Brauer)

1969
– 2117410: D397,445
– 2117471: D362,707
– 2117475: D394,669

1969
– 2128245: D390,518
– 2128269: D363,266
– 2128275: D377,731

1969
– 2247966: D548,691
– 2247986: D547,409
– 2247995: D549,761

1970/71
– 2665630: D804,035
– 2665650: D832,967
– 2665706: D837,993


I wrote two extensive articles on this topic:

The Sea-Dweller Chronicles: Genesis Of The Decompressing Watch

The Sea-Dweller Chronicles: Dry Run And Teaming Up With Comex


Cheers

Jose

Hello Jose,

I know your articles, they are extremely interesting and very well written!

Do you have them as a printed brochure?
Would very much like to get them from you!

I have a DRSD w/ HEV from the mid 70's.
Rolex does not want to tell me the year of its production. Does your database trace serial numbers until 1976?

Best wishes!
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Old 5 October 2020, 03:09 PM   #17
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Nice to see you here Perezcope
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Old 5 October 2020, 07:15 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmb15 View Post
Hello Jose,

I know your articles, they are extremely interesting and very well written!

Do you have them as a printed brochure?
Would very much like to get them from you!

I have a DRSD w/ HEV from the mid 70's.
Rolex does not want to tell me the year of its production. Does your database trace serial numbers until 1976?

Best wishes!
Thank you for your feedback, glad you find them interesting. So far, the articles are only available online, sorry.

If you DM me the case and movement number of your watch I can check with my database.


Cheers

Jose
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Old 5 October 2020, 10:31 PM   #19
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I thought the early 1665s had partial serial numbers engraved inside the case back. I don't see that on this example. Maybe there were exceptions.
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Old 5 October 2020, 11:59 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by swish77 View Post
I thought the early 1665s had partial serial numbers engraved inside the case back. I don't see that on this example. Maybe there were exceptions.
The 1.6 million SRSDs (including Dr. Brauer's 1.8 million) and the 1.7 million non-valve DRSDs do not have this feature.


Cheers

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Old 6 October 2020, 02:49 AM   #21
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Hi Jose,

Thanks for your detailed information on non-valve DRSD. Interesting to know that such watch do exist. As an intelligent guess, would it be possible to estimate how many of these pieces are out there?
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Old 6 October 2020, 09:16 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Winzy View Post
Hi Jose,

Thanks for your detailed information on non-valve DRSD. Interesting to know that such watch do exist. As an intelligent guess, would it be possible to estimate how many of these pieces are out there?

As of now there are 11 pieces from the 1.7 mil range registered in my database. Difficult to say how many were made in total. Not many imo!

To me these non-valve DRSDs are an absolute mystery given they were assembled in 1970/71. Perhaps they were made for special markets or maybe they were demonstration pieces of some sort. In any case they are super rare and certainly something special from a collecting point of view.

Btw, the watch you're referring to which is up for grabs at The Vintage Concept in HK was sold at Phillips HK in May 2018 for more than USD 600k.

https://www.phillips.com/detail/rolex/HK080118/953


PS: Can you get pictures of the movement please?


Cheers

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Old 6 October 2020, 10:18 AM   #23
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@pereztroika

Thank you thank you thank you.

I only have 3 regular SDs but am overwhelmed and delighted with all that I've learnt today on both of your articles.
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Old 6 October 2020, 03:46 PM   #24
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Brilliant information Jose. Really enjoy the website.
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Old 6 October 2020, 09:15 PM   #25
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Does 1665 MKI Without HEV Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winzy View Post
Bmb15. That’s the watch I came across at Central, Hong Kong. Will try to share more pics if they would allow me to take a few shots of it.

You went again to the seller and have more information + photos about this specific 1665 DRSD Mk1 w/o HEV?

Are you just curious or really interested in buying a DRSD?

Just to be crystal clear: I have no commercial relationship with the dealer and don't want to sell my Mk4 DRSD!
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Old 6 October 2020, 09:45 PM   #26
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Does 1665 MKI Without HEV Exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pereztroika View Post

Btw, the watch you're referring to which is up for grabs at The Vintage Concept in HK was sold at Phillips HK in May 2018 for more than USD 600k.

https://www.phillips.com/detail/rolex/HK080118/953
Thanks, interesting link to the auction.
Sold in May 2018 for 4'900.000 HK$ : 7,75 (today) = 632'000 US$ (today)

The asking price in August 2020 was 450'000 US$. Either "cheap" today (I'm joking) or not a good investment with about 30% lost in 2 years, at least ...
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Old 7 October 2020, 03:34 AM   #27
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Does 1665 MKI Without HEV Exist?

@OP

Quote from the Phillips auctions page:

"We are deeply indebted to scholars John Goldberger, Jatucka and Jose Pereztroika for their invaluable assistance during the research of this timepiece."

You see, you got one of the few experts worldwide to share his information about this very rare watch with us; in your first thread, and you also received a bunch of photos ... time to tell us more?
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Old 8 October 2020, 03:25 AM   #28
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Hi bmb15,

Totally agree with you that we are blessed to have such expert research from them. Am also humbled with the generosity to share.

I have yet to make my way to Vintage Concept to view the watch. Will definitely be sharing when I do get my hands on it. Doesn’t surprise me one bit that they are reading this thread as well and expecting my visit.
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Old 21 November 2020, 05:00 AM   #29
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I have yet to make my way to Vintage Concept to view the watch. Will definitely be sharing when I do get my hands on it.
How did the story continue?
Please give us an update!
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