Will Patek fight grey excess like they do with counterfeit?

[QuelleHeureEstIl]

Warning: perennial subject (Marronnier in French)

I think that in this forum we almost all tend to appreciate a healthy watch market (which includes some grey market).

But seeing these 2 pictures today, it symbolizes all the excesses of todays grey market and I cannot imagine that it provides a positive image.

Do you think that Patek is working on starting a hard fight against grey because these images are being the new normal are not positive for the industry image? (Like they did with the counterfeit market)

Source of the images: https://youtu.be/y09O8KkFUfk?t=561

[EEpro]

Inappropriate touching. I can't look.

[wetsum3]

That’s a shame for many reasons

[2nastie]

Too close for comfort…

[Ubiquitous1984]

I don't know if this is related to the grey market issue, but I have been asked to take proof of ID with me to collect my new 5168G, that will be scanned to a "Patek database". I have not had to to do this with my previous two Patek purchases from the same AD. I'm fine to do this to show them they can trust me with popular pieces (that I will not flip them), but I do know that it can offend some customers.

[henrylee]

Are those photos of real or fakes?

[QuelleHeureEstIl]

Originally Posted by Ubiquitous1984

I don't know if this is related to the grey market issue, but I have been asked to take proof of ID with me to collect my new 5168G, that will be scanned to a "Patek database". I have not had to to do this with my previous two Patek purchases from the same AD. I'm fine to do this to show them they can trust me with popular pieces (that I will not flip them), but I do know that it can offend some customers.

Interesting.

In some Asian countries, LVMH brands have been doing this for bags (Louis Vuitton, etc). Their aim was to limit the number of sells by Chinese (Mainlanders). I read that LVMH wanted to globalise this procedure.
This strategy is counteracted by flippers using paid "proxies".

[QuelleHeureEstIl]

Originally Posted by henrylee

Are those photos of real or fakes?

Real watches. Luxury Bazaar is a grey dealer.

[jon_jon]

My take is that there is a reason why a lot of Patek ADs are no longer ADs, with a lot of them cut within the past couple of years. Patek has given ADs a lot of leeway in the past. But with the crazy secondary market, it is too tempting for ADs to make extra profit selling through the backdoor. The gray market exists because someone is sourcing the watches for them.

[Murcielagoboy2]

I see pics like that and it reminds me that Nautilus/Aquanaut have been made by the thousands - most models for many years. Makes me laugh!
Hell, if I was a Gray Market dealer, I'd exploit the moronic hysteria around these models too. It won't last for ever...

[2nastie]

I got to say, these images never make me go: "Oh wow, look how crazy this guy is! This guy must be rich" (which what they want) ... or as kids these days go "Look how ballin' and fire" this guy is.

It honestly takes the uniqueness and pride out of owning a Patek. Looks like I walked into McDonalds and asked for Happy Meal and the guy behind the counter pulls out a bag full of toys and tells you to pick one like nothing.

This is just horrible presentation. Same goes for the storage case of 10+ white ceramic Daytonas.

[HMHM]

Originally Posted by Ubiquitous1984

I don't know if this is related to the grey market issue, but I have been asked to take proof of ID with me to collect my new 5168G, that will be scanned to a "Patek database". I have not had to to do this with my previous two Patek purchases from the same AD. I'm fine to do this to show them they can trust me with popular pieces (that I will not flip them), but I do know that it can offend some customers.

A lot of SEA ADs want business card. It’s more of a verification process, but I suspect it’s to gauge whether the customer is worth investing in a long term relationship with. Different ADs around the world have different verification policy though.

[RHJ]

I don't care at all about the prices, also MSRP will be always out of my reach.
But I suffer seeing dangled together such precious watches like this.
This is unrespectful towards art and craftsmanship

[DonLee]

Originally Posted by Murcielagoboy2

I see pics like that and it reminds me that Nautilus/Aquanaut have been made by the thousands - most models for many years. Makes me laugh!
Hell, if I was a Gray Market dealer, I'd exploit the moronic hysteria around these models too. It won't last for ever...

hard to say... Richard Mille makes more watches per year than Lange, yet RM watches are supposed to be super exclusive and rare...

[QuelleHeureEstIl]

Originally Posted by 2nastie

This is just horrible presentation. Same goes for the storage case of 10+ white ceramic Daytonas.

To my understanding, these grey dealers want to show that they *own* their stock. (It also shows that watches are like potatoes for them...)

Because shady new dealers tend to only have pictures on their mobile phone/social media pages, zero stock but are part of whatsapp groups to quickly source a reference.
Some other dealers mainly have consignment pieces.

[beshannon]

Originally Posted by RHJ

But I suffer seeing dangled together such precious watches like this.
This is unrespectful towards art and craftsmanship

People like that only care about money.

This is what ruins hobbies

[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by QuelleHeureEstIl

Warning: perennial subject (Marronnier in French)

I think that in this forum we almost all tend to appreciate a healthy watch market (which includes some grey market).

But seeing these 2 pictures today, it symbolizes all the excesses of todays grey market and I cannot imagine that it provides a positive image.

Do you think that Patek is working on starting a hard fight against grey because these images are being the new normal are not positive for the industry image? (Like they did with the counterfeit market)

Would it be a more "positive image" if PPs plummeted in value on the secondary market?

Say you could get hold of a 5711 in unworn condition for $2000 s/h, would PP & collectors prefer that situation?

Some people are never happy!

[EEpro]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

Would it be a more "positive image" if PPs plummeted in value on the secondary market?

Say you could get hold of a 5711 in unworn condition for $2000 s/h, would PP & collectors prefer that situation?

Some people are never happy!

Everyone wants an exclusive club that somehow only they are able to get into. Shut the gates behind me but let me in!

[VFA]

Originally Posted by Murcielagoboy2

I see pics like that and it reminds me that Nautilus/Aquanaut have been made by the thousands - most models for many years. Makes me laugh!
Hell, if I was a Gray Market dealer, I'd exploit the moronic hysteria around these models too. It won't last for ever...

And daytona hundreds of thousands.

[QuelleHeureEstIl]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

Would it be a more "positive image" if PPs plummeted in value on the secondary market?

Say you could get hold of a 5711 in unworn condition for $2000 s/h, would PP & collectors prefer that situation?

Some people are never happy!

My main question had actually 2 dimensions:

A) Supply: PP has to supply watches to the collectors' wrists (not the flippers' drawers).
Official AD struggle daily to explain to angry collectors why they will not get watches, but the shop next door and the grey dealers can provide you everything with big stock.
Internet make this issue very visible (cf the 2 images)

B) Prices: If you browse WatchAnalytics, todays prices are obviously distorted and some references are doomed for a big correction.
But one of PP main mission is to "protect" the value retention of its watches. Fighting grey market could actually do the opposite and drive the prices down. PP would have to give good reasons to big collectors why their collection value decreased.

[HMHM]

I do think if Patek, Rolex or AP wanted to solve this, they could have settled this. For a lot of this grey dealers they have a steady stream of supply from their network of ADs. Or else it is quite hard to accumulate so many watches of the same kind. Sure they are a few bad flippers out there, but think about it - how many 5711R or a 5167A will an AD sell to one flipper? If the AD does that, clearly they have some sort of involvement in the scheme. I think what the manufacturers should do is penalise the AD hard, set an example that if the AD is dishonest, their licence will be taken away.

https://youtu.be/nM536alZdAA

If you watch the above video (subtitled), the watch was unworn/uncut, and the booklet was even kept sealed in the plastic. May I ask if this is standard Patek Philippe practice? Or is this one unique AD who knew what they were doing exactly? Also the watch was sold in July 2021, and by September it has already been resold. 2 months

[ts3]

Originally Posted by Murcielagoboy2

I see pics like that and it reminds me that Nautilus/Aquanaut have been made by the thousands - most models for many years. Makes me laugh!
Hell, if I was a Gray Market dealer, I'd exploit the moronic hysteria around these models too. It won't last for ever...

Quite a few dealers have changed their business model towards watch investing / buy and hold rather than ensuring high inventory turns at decent margins. Some will be left holding the bag...

[PPcollector]

Originally Posted by ts3

Quite a few dealers have changed their business model towards watch investing / buy and hold rather than ensuring high inventory turns at decent margins. Some will be left holding the bag...

Don’t mind being a bag holder in this day and age…

[Incroyable12]

On his Youtube Roman Sharf says he sources his watches from all over the world notably the Middle East and Hong Kong/Tokyo.

It's kind of like the art market where borders are meaningless. Doesn't matter if it's in Tokyo or Mexico City.

[rolexpatek363]

Originally Posted by QuelleHeureEstIl

Prices: If you browse WatchAnalytics, todays prices are obviously distorted and some references are doomed for a big correction.
But one of PP main mission is to "protect" the value retention of its watches. Fighting grey market could actually do the opposite and drive the prices down. PP would have to give good reasons to big collectors why their collection value decreased.

Your link to an Instagram page is devoid of any info on prices, and why is it that you claim "todays prices are obviously distorted and some references are doomed for a big correction"?

How could PP possibly "fight the grey market"? The grey market is completely outside PP's control.

Are you trying to talk the market down because you want to buy a steel Nautilus?

[DonLee]

Originally Posted by EEpro

Everyone wants an exclusive club that somehow only they are able to get into. Shut the gates behind me but let me in!

this*

People complain about prices and difficulty to get a watch. But most people WANT to get a certain watch because it is specifically hard to get and it's an achievement, as well as a showoff piece. Would you like that Nautilus just as much if you knew EVERYONE could get it? People would move onto other watches that were more difficult to get, and people would wish they were one of those too.

[QuelleHeureEstIl]

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

Your link to an Instagram page is devoid of any info on prices, and why is it that you claim "todays prices are obviously distorted and some references are doomed for a big correction"?

Because of the acceleration of the price increase in 2021 and even more in the beginning of 2022. It can be seen on almost all brands and models. Many models (AP, Rolex, PP, etc) saw a +20% YTD! I personally cannot imagine a total crash but a big correction would not be a surprise.

Remember that grey dealers work with a 10% margin. What would happen to many of them if the market crashes by 15%...
By putting pressure on 2nd market prices, manufactures could clean massively the grey market.

Originally Posted by rolexpatek363

Are you trying to talk the market down because you want to buy a steel Nautilus?

I am the kind of guy who will disregard something he loved only because now everybody loves it.

I love the Nautilus (I cannot hate them), now my eyes are on other pieces. :)

[gqmagic]

Originally Posted by QuelleHeureEstIl

Warning: perennial subject (Marronnier in French)

I think that in this forum we almost all tend to appreciate a healthy watch market (which includes some grey market).

But seeing these 2 pictures today, it symbolizes all the excesses of todays grey market and I cannot imagine that it provides a positive image.

Do you think that Patek is working on starting a hard fight against grey because these images are being the new normal are not positive for the industry image? (Like they did with the counterfeit market)

Source of the images: https://youtu.be/y09O8KkFUfk?t=561

Bullshit posts like this should stay on YouTube and Instagram.

They just keep dragging this forum further into the gutter.

[QuelleHeureEstIl]

Originally Posted by gqmagic

Bullshit posts like this should stay on YouTube and Instagram.

They just keep dragging this forum further into the gutter.

Ok boomer. ;)

Why so much acrimony and hate in most of your posts about todays' Internet...

No offense, but you totally miss the point.

We like it or not, these actors (youtube/IG influencers, grey dealers/influencers, patekaholic, patekworld_, etc) massively influence what is happening today especially on a 60k units per year manufacturer.

They are one of the major root causes, PP needs to push the break for the Nautilus.

What is wrong for naively asking to the community if they see PP/Rolex/AP/Richemont and Co. taking measures against the grey market like they did with counterfeit. You know... maybe following what LVMH/Kering is currently doing...

Maybe you could give your point about projects you see probable (transition to some centralized online certificates/warranty cards, verticalization of the AD network, centralisation of the allocation process, controls about ownership, centralisation of ownership controlling, etc.).

[MILGAUSS88]

Originally Posted by jon_jon

My take is that there is a reason why a lot of Patek ADs are no longer ADs, with a lot of them cut within the past couple of years. Patek has given ADs a lot of leeway in the past. But with the crazy secondary market, it is too tempting for ADs to make extra profit selling through the backdoor. The gray market exists because someone is sourcing the watches for them.

I talked to a former AD, recently.
Patek wanted him to up his inventory from $2 million to $10 million. This was pre covid, back when you could go into the store and find most models in stock.
When he did not agree to those terms, they cut him.

Unless he was selling to grays, there was no way they could turn that kind of inventory.
To the contrary I think Patek's policy has created more inventory for the grays.

Only your largest stores could handle this kind inventory I believe. (Present situation excluded, where every model has a buyer.)