Does the movement make one watch "better" than the another?

[mretzloff]

Every time I read an article about a watch, the author discusses the watch's movement. Why? Does the movement of one watch determine it's quality or ability to tell time?

I hope this doesn't sound too dumb

[f16570]

The movement alone cannot make one better than the other, but this is then down to what your opinion of "better" is? Accuracy provided, number of complications etc, etc.
The 3185 movement in the Exp II & GMT Master II is a renowned movement, but has now been superseded by the 3186 movement, so perhaps newer is better?

[robb01]

Regardless, I think its interesting to read about the movement and its history

[JohnEaton]

Originally Posted by mretzloff

Every time I read an article about a watch, the author discusses the watch's movement. Why? Does the movement of one watch determine it's quality or ability to tell time?

I hope this doesn't sound too dumb

Yes... Does the engine of an automobile determine it's performance?

In my opinion I believe the 3130 or 3135 to be the best workhorse movement out there.

And much has been written that the 4130 movement (Daytona, with it's 72 hour power reserve) is perhaps one of the top ten movements ever produced.

[argee1977]

I'm not 100% convinced, i love the El Primero movement, it looks fantastic with display caseback but it keeps the same time as a normal watch, the sub again is a wonderful in-house movement but again it keeps the same time as normal watches.

I think people get a bit caught up in the in-house movements, for a company the size of Rolex in-house is quite possibly the cheapest option, they have the staff and capability whereas smaller companies don't, so they go out and use what's on the market and put their own improvements into it, does that make it an inferior watch, i don't really think so.

As for older models, as said above, do people who pay a fortune for older 5513s, daytonas, etc pay for the movement think it's inferior, when it's been superseded a few times with 'superior' models, i don't think so as it's the whole package that you buy, the movement is the heartbeat but it needs the whole package to be fully appreciated.

[JohnEaton]

EDIT: Yes to the questions, not the last comment... sorry mretzloff

[mretzloff]

Originally Posted by JohnEaton

Yes... Does the engine of an automobile determine it's performance?

In my opinion I believe the 3130 or 3135 to be the best workhorse movement out there.

And much has been written that the 4130 movement (Daytona, with it's 72 hour power reserve) is perhaps one of the top ten movements ever produced.

Are the movements of PP, VC, AP, Lange, etc. better than Breitling, Omega, Rolex, etc.? What makes one movement better than the other?

Thanks for the info.

[argee1977]

I forgot to say i do mean with similar watches, different complications give you different features, but at a set quality i think that most watches are as good as each other, if there were problems then companies would go to the wall as competition is pretty fierce these days.

To give some examples, IWC take a valjoux movement in parts, not a whole assembly, they then put these parts through a quality procedure, remove certain parts and replace with their own parts, at the end they have a movement that is based on a valjoux but has IWC improvements, but do these improvements actually make the watch better than the base 7750, put them under test and both will more than likely have the same time and gain/lose the same amount each day.

I think the real question is 'what do you expect from a watch'?

[RossInIllinois]

Of course it would. However many brands have fine movements. I for one think Zenith is superior to Rolex when it comes to movements.

[CVerKuilen]

IMHO, Yes, Yes, Yes!!! This is what makes a watch company a watch company! Think of how much technical know-how and achievement is required to design a dial, hands, and a watch case - and compare that to what is required to design a complete movement - 300+ components working simultaneously to produce a stable, accurate time rate.

What make a movement better than another?

Time rate and STABILITY - there are quite a few movements out there today that can keep time to chronometer ratings - however these aren't manufactured to keep stable time during vigorous activity at different levels of wind, etc.

Attention to detail - Technical finishing on bearing surfaces and interacting components, as well as aesthetic finishing such as blued screws, perlage, geneva stripes, bevels, polishing...

Serviceability - The ability of a watch to be put through a service process and retain the qualities that that it desirable from the manufacturer, and the ease of service by the watchmaker.

Longevity / Toughness - The materials a movement is made from make a HUGE difference in how long your watch retains it's original components. The steels that the arbors/pinions/pivots of the watch's gears are made from need to be of top quality to avoid wear over time.
Incorporation of features such as steel or bronze cores that go between places where brass and steel would usually meet tremendously reduces the amount of wear that occurs in these areas, and can save entire bridges and mainplates come service time.

I could go on for hours, but these are some main areas that make the biggest differences. On top of that, who wants a watch that contain the exact same movement as one of 1/4 of the price?

[Perdu]

I've had a few watchmakers in Geneva tell me they think Rolex's best movement is the 3135. I did not get into why. As I understand it everything in movement design is compromise, so various movements are going to have their individual strengths and weaknesses. For example, my Omega has better winding efficiency and rotor pivot bearings than Rolex. My Rolex has a better shock system, microsteller adjustments and a balance bridge. I'm still learning about this stuff.

[JohnEaton]

Originally Posted by mretzloff

Are the movements of PP, VC, AP, Lange, etc. better than Breitling, Omega, Rolex, etc.? What makes one movement better than the other?

Thanks for the info.

I think "better" is too broad a term for me to answer your question.

Better as in more ornate? Cotes de Geneve may be found on the PP, VC and others, but you may want an exhibition caseback.

Better as in most power reserve? For accuracy and power reserve a Seiko Kinetic or a Citizen Eco Drive are hard to beat. Some mechanical watches have a ten day power reserve (PAM,) a 3130/3135 around 48 to 52 hours, a 4130 around 72 hours.

Better as in most accurate = Atomic clock, quartz, if mechanical then certainly a tourbillon before the more simple movements.

But do you need to be more accurate than COSC standards? Or is simply meeting COSC accurate enough for everyday use?

A tourbillon is usually beautiful, expensive and accurate, BUT delicate. I don't own a tourbillon, but if I did I certainly would not wear it in a work environment.

A movement that is fairly easy to service is a big plus, therefore the design of the movement is important, I have read that the 4130 is easier to work on than the 4030 movement.

For all around use I think the Rolex 3130 (no date) or 3135 (date) are accurate enough (meet or exceed COSC standards) and rugged...

(Plus, I love the way a 3130 or 3135 sings.)

I am not familiar enough with non-Rolex movements to answer the remainder of your question...

[Perdu]

Originally Posted by CVerKuilen

Time rate and STABILITY - there are quite a few movements out there today that can keep time to chronometer ratings - however these aren't manufactured to keep stable time during vigorous activity at different levels of wind, etc.

Can you tell us what the difference between rate and stability is? I did not realise you should expect a chronometer to keep to COSC throughout the unwinding of the spring. Something I've never checked on my Rolex.

[JohnEaton]

Originally Posted by Perdu

Can you tell us what the difference between rate and stability is? I did not realise you should expect a chronometer to keep to COSC throughout the unwinding of the spring. Something I've never checked on my Rolex.

Some Panerai have ten days power reserve, both hand wound and self winding...

I understand that the hand wound is limited to 8 days reserve to prevent a slowing of the movement when the power reserve is almost depleted.


Personally, I've not noticed a difference of accuracy with the 3130, 3135 or 4130 movements due to amount of winding of the mainspring. (Not saying there is not a difference, just that if there is it is so small that I have not noticed it.)

[haakon59]

Yes, of course it does. This being said, there are obviously many companies which manufacture fine movements--one person mentioned Zenith, which used to win a great number of prizes for accuracy in the 1960's, but you can say the same about PP, VC, AP, Breguet, etc. All car companies, for example, make their own motors and those motors are able to make the car drive down the road, but they vary quite a lot in reliability, power, etc. Watch companies of course are striving for accuracy, and most of them have this done rather well now. Even so, there are differences.

[RsqVet]

For me the real issue is; is the movement in house or a well developed derivative of a generic or is it a pure generic.

If it's a pure generic then I can pretty easily figure the value of the movement and since I am mainly intrested in tool type watches, figure the value of a decent case, and 99% of the time when you do this you find that some name on the dial adds 1k or more to the price and nothing to the value of the watch.

Kind of cracks me up how so much of swiss watches these days are design this and brand that all with the same guts.....

Oh well, keeps me intrested in the Rolex and a few others, as for ETA they are a very good product but I have some nice watches that feature thier movements in a no-name case... good value at a few hundred bucks or so.

[S2000_driver]

I've always wondered how many components there are in the 3135. I did a brief search but did not find any posts...

[Andad]

Yes, that should go into the 'dumbest forum question' box.

Answer:- 'yes'.

[airhkg]

Yes!

"A watch without a balance wheel is a watch without a soul".

[sleedawg]

Originally Posted by mretzloff

Does the movement of one watch determine it's quality or ability to tell time?

I think the best thing to do is go to your local mall and play w. a Swatch automatic watch. I believe it comes with an ETA 2824 movement. This I believe the least expensive movement the Swatch corporation makes and is about a 30 year old design that is still used today. Then go to an Omega dealer and play with an older Seamaster Pro which is based on the 2892-A2 (Omega calls this the 1120 movement I believe) which is a decedent of the 2824 movement and about a 10 year old design. Both are ETA movements made by the Swatch corporation but it's amazing how different the feel of the movements.

Examples of what to look for.
Playing with the winding crown.
Feel how the rotor spins freely and the noise it makes.
Setting the time and how easily the gears moves.
Yes, both will keep COSC standard time but one is more a lower end model, the other a high end build.

ETA movements (for now) supply about 70-90% of all watch movements. (I'll have to look for the article that put out the statistic) Some companies will take ETA movements and use them exactly as they come from the Swatch Group factory, and others will just "decorate" the rotor and few other parts with their branding. Some will actually modify the movement and improve on the watch.

So, the bottom line is yes... a movement does make one watch better than another.

[James T]

Originally Posted by sleedawg

I think the best thing to do is go to your local mall and play w. a Swatch automatic watch. I believe it comes with an ETA 2824 movement. This I believe the least expensive movement the Swatch corporation makes and is about a 30 year old design that is still used today. Then go to an Omega dealer and play with an older Seamaster Pro which is based on the 2892-A2 (Omega calls this the 1130 movement I believe) which is a decedent of the 2824 movement and about a 10 year old design. Both are ETA movements made by the Swatch corporation but it's amazing how different the feel of the movements.

Examples of what to look for.
Just playing with the winding crown. Feel how the rotor spins freely and the noise it makes. The movement quality is night and day. Even setting the time and how easily the gears move shows night and day the difference between the two. Yes, both will keep COSC standard time but one is more a lower end model, the other a high end build.

ETA movements (for now) supply about 70-90% of all watch movements. (I'll have to look for the article that put out the statistic) Some companies will take ETA movements and use them exactly as they come from the Swatch Group factory, and others will just "decorate" the rotor and few other parts with their branding. Some will actually modify the movement and improve on the watch.

So, the bottom line is yes... a movement does make one watch better than another.

but it is still just made to tell time, right??!!

[sleedawg]

Originally Posted by James T

but it is still just made to tell time, right??!!

Yeah. Why own a watch when you have a cell phone or others can tell you the time.

I'm just answering the question about why do watch reviews focus on the movement. If it never mentioned anything about the movement, then the watch really comes down to the fashion/style of the watch which makes it pure jewelry and not a piece of engineering. There has to be a reason why mechanical watches are coming back in vogue after the whole quartz era.

[James T]

Originally Posted by sleedawg

Yeah. Why own a watch when you have a cell phone or others can tell you the time.

I'm just answering the question about why do watch reviews focus on the movement. If it never mentioned anything about the movement, then the watch really comes down to the fashion/style of the watch which makes it pure jewelry and not a piece of engineering. There has to be a reason why mechanical watches are coming back in vogue after the whole quartz era.

oh well.. i am one of those who consider a luxury watch, in our case a ROlex.. as a piece of jewelry...i am really not concerned at the movement as it will give you the same information as a quartz will anyway... i am just concerned about how it looks from the outside... my opinion...

[cody p]

i'll just say yes.

[Jedi]

Originally Posted by JohnEaton

Yes... Does the engine of an automobile determine it's performance?

In my opinion I believe the 3130 or 3135 to be the best workhorse movement out there.

And much has been written that the 4130 movement (Daytona, with it's 72 hour power reserve) is perhaps one of the top ten movements ever produced.

This whole Top 10 business with the 4130 is a whole load of codswallop. It all started with a one liner in a watch magazine review and it's been perpetuated via forums like this one online to the level of urban myth. A particular forum member was very fond of quoting this one obscure quasi-factoid.

It's impossible to quantify a top 10 list of movements without first specifying the criteria.

[Singslinger]

Some manufacturers such as Patek Philippe and Lange & Sohne take pride in the intricacies of their movements, which often come with gold/platinum rotors or plates. The more complicated the movement, the greater the perception of quality - after all, if you're paying big bucks, you'd want to know that the insides of the watch are worth the money.

Of course a cheapo quartz watch would probably be much more accurate than the most complicated Patek...