Harrasment, mobbing and racism at Patek?

[alphadweller]

Hi everyone.

I came across this article (link here) in the Swiss press today. It was published on June 8th. Seven ex-employees were made redundant following harrasment, mobing, psychological pressure, racism and whistle blowing, allegedly.

Personally, If I was in the market for a Patek (which I was, not so long ago but chose a VC instead), I might think twice before pulling the trigger. This kind of practice kind of deteriorates their image, to me at least.

What do you guys think? Would this type of news potentially affect your decision to buy a Patek?

Google translation:

Cases of harassment and racism denounced at Patek Philippe

Several people on Tuesday recounted situations which then worsened when they reported them to high places. The labor inspectorate was seized.

Being under psychological pressure in the workplace is already not acceptable. But when they are followed by sidelining, or even dismissal, when they are denounced, recourse to external intervention seems to be necessary. This is what the Unia union did, alerted by several employees of the prestigious watch brand Patek Philippe, in Geneva. On Tuesday, seven of them recounted their experiences to the press.

An employee thus testified to having undergone mobbing and having had to be hospitalized, so much “the situation had become unlivable”. His manager, who had alerted the hierarchy, said he had seen nothing change with regard to his colleague. He, on the other hand, was first moved, before being fired. Another said he noticed that no measures were taken to protect employees subjected to harassment, stress and various pressures, even if the entities supposed to handle such situations, such as human resources or the personnel committee, had been alerted.

"For fear, I say nothing more"
He therefore chose to fall into line: “In Patek, you just have to bow down, work and above all say nothing. I decided to try to keep my place, and for fear of reprisals, I say nothing more, ”he explained, quoted in a statement from the Unia union. Three women claim for their part to have been "dismissed for example" after rebelling against the methods they deemed inadequate.

Finally, an employee who had denounced the racism of which he was a victim was sidelined and then warned, like those who insulted him, as part of a collective restoration to order. He also ended up being fired.

Unia therefore alerted the Cantonal Office for Inspection and Labor Relations. According to the union, a first "compliance" has been requested. In addition, the facts denounced Tuesday would be the subject of a criminal complaint and two complaints to the Prud'hommes.

The company denies
Joined by the "Tribune de Genève", the management affirms to take into account all the harassment situations which are reported and to have never dismissed an employee who had complained of mobbing. As for the case of racism, she claims to have launched an in-depth investigation which had revealed a dysfunction within the team, including from the employee who had denounced the facts. He was reportedly dismissed after refusing the measures decided upon after this investigation.

[vitalsigns]

Hard to know what's true. These are mere allegations, levied by employees who presumably have something to gain ($ settlement?). Baseless allegations happen all the time. At least in the U.S. it is fairly common for employees to allege ill treatment when fired for performance reasons or otherwise to shake down a former employer for money. I'm not defending Patek because I don't know what the truth is here; but I'm not so naïve as to take mere allegations as truth.

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by vitalsigns

hard to know what's true. These are mere allegations, levied by employees who presumably have something to gain ($ settlement?). Baseless allegations happen all the time. At least in the u.s. It is fairly common for employees to allege ill treatment when fired for performance reasons or otherwise to shake down a former employer for money. I'm not defending patek because i don't know what the truth is here; but i'm not so naïve as to take mere allegations as truth.

+1

[bonsai-man]

+2

[azizu]

So you were looking to buy Patek then opted for VC.
and now you are bashing Patek with this article.
what are you hoping to achieve?
i am not defending Patek or anything, and i can assure you that the EU have one of the strictest regulations in the universe when it comes to protecting labor.
but i also don't appreciate you bashing the brand we love and invested our hard earned money in just because you couldn't get one

[ashbaug2]

Originally Posted by azizu

So you were looking to buy Patek then opted for VC.
and now you are bashing Patek with this article.
what are you hoping to achieve?
i am not defending Patek or anything, and i can assure you that the EU have one of the strictest regulations in the universe when it comes to protecting labor.
but i also don't appreciate you bashing the brand we love and invested our hard earned money in just because you couldn't get one

I think you're reading into the OP's statements with a slightly biased intention. I don't think that's what he's going after, and how's to know he "couldn't get one" and didn't just decide on a VC instead? Happens all the time. I personally have no skin in this game, but your response comes off a bit harsh.

OP, I personally wouldn't take this article, or even any future finding of poor practices as it alleges, to push me away from a Patek, if I were considering one (I'm not, and likely never will be). If I want a watch, it's probably because it speaks to me from a design/aesthetic perspective, and there's no changing that feeling. I'm not excusing racism, not at all; but I believe we can separate people's actions from those of a company. That's my 2-cents.

[77T]

This appears to be a case undergoing adjudication. The OP has presumed guilt - I can’t tell which side will prevail but am fairly certain it wasn’t Patek who ran to the tabloid.

My best reaction is this: time for some Calatrava cherish…




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[IBDOC]

Originally Posted by azizu

So you were looking to buy Patek then opted for VC.
and now you are bashing Patek with this article.
what are you hoping to achieve?
i am not defending Patek or anything, and i can assure you that the EU have one of the strictest regulations in the universe when it comes to protecting labor.
but i also don't appreciate you bashing the brand we love and invested our hard earned money in just because you couldn't get one

Everything else aside, Switzerland is decidedly and emphatically not part of the EU.

The article itself is basically a one-sided description of an individual enployee’s labor dispute from the labor union’s POV. Don’t really see what the basis for discussion would be here.

[Bosscheto]

I have no idea, what is happening in Patek, I live in Switzerland, but I hope this is properly investigated. With regards to VC, last year there was a massive scandal in Switzerland with Richemond, you can google it, was all over the papers.

Basically, when the factories were closed down - Richemond received government support, (which I do not blame them for, if the government is closing down your factories) but Richemond refused to pay the bonuses for 2019 (Bonuses are paid typically at the end of first quarter of the following year) citing potential liquidity issues, slashed flat 20% all salaries BUT increased with 40% the compensation package of their 8 man team board of directors.

For reference, Patek did not ask for government support, (which was surprising considering they invested over 1 billion in the new building without any credit. "Sterns do not like banks", Thierry Stern said) paid in full the bonuses for the previous year and did not decrease the salaries. Patek was voted officially as best employer in the Watch Industry for 2020 btw.

In Switzerland we hear rumors about Patek at least once a year. Thierry is divorcing, the kids do not like watches, Patek will be sold ... bla bla bla. We are used to it. In Suisse Romand there is a great pride that a Family owned and family run company is so successful.

LVMH and Richemond would buy it in a heartbeat. One of the reasons why we see such a massive premium on the secondary market is the great way the company is managed. Which is tricky because the Sterns pay special attention to collectors while producing a high number of watches over 60K. You look at FP Journe, the success is incredible, but this year will see the succession plan and also we are talking about less than 2k watches a year including the Elegante collection.

I do not trust Richemond, and trust them less after last year, they are gready and if they are ready to screw there own employees, why would they hesitate to screw their collectors?

P.S. These are serious allegations for Patek, let's wait and see.

[alphadweller]

Hold your horses. I like Patek watches and I could have had the Calatrava I was after. Me choosing VC has nothing to do with this whole affair, I bought it a month ago. I'm not bashing Patek, only saying if this is true, it would tarnish their image and would certainly make me reconsider a purchase decision.

So, what you're saying is because you bought Patek watches, we shouldn't talk about the bad stuff going inside their walls, allegedly? Just because it suits you? Heard of freedom of speech?

Originally Posted by azizu

So you were looking to buy Patek then opted for VC.
and now you are bashing Patek with this article.
what are you hoping to achieve?
i am not defending Patek or anything, and i can assure you that the EU have one of the strictest regulations in the universe when it comes to protecting labor.
but i also don't appreciate you bashing the brand we love and invested our hard earned money in just because you couldn't get one

No quite, I did write "allegedly" and there's a question mark in the title.

Originally Posted by 77T

This appears to be a case undergoing adjudication. The OP has presumed guilt - I can’t tell which side will prevail but am fairly certain it wasn’t Patek who ran to the tabloid. My best reaction is this: time for some Calatrava cherish…
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Very interesting, thanks for bringing this to my attention . I’ll have a look at the Richemont stories too.

Originally Posted by Bosscheto

I have no idea, what is happening in Patek, I live in Switzerland, but I hope this is properly investigated. With regards to VC, last year there was a massive scandal in Switzerland with Richemond, you can google it, was all over the papers.

Basically, when the factories were closed down - Richemond received government support, (which I do not blame them for, if the government is closing down your factories) but Richemond refused to pay the bonuses for 2019 (Bonuses are paid typically at the end of first quarter of the following year) citing potential liquidity issues, slashed flat 20% all salaries BUT increased with 40% the compensation package of their 8 man team board of directors.

For reference, Patek did not ask for government support, (which was surprising considering they invested over 1 billion in the new building without any credit. "Sterns do not like banks", Thierry Stern said) paid in full the bonuses for the previous year and did not decrease the salaries. Patek was voted officially as best employer in the Watch Industry for 2020 btw.

In Switzerland we hear rumors about Patek at least once a year. Thierry is divorcing, the kids do not like watches, Patek will be sold ... bla bla bla. We are used to it. In Suisse Romand there is a great pride that a Family owned and family run company is so successful.

LVMH and Richemond would buy it in a heartbeat. One of the reasons why we see such a massive premium on the secondary market is the great way the company is managed. Which is tricky because the Sterns pay special attention to collectors while producing a high number of watches over 60K. You look at FP Journe, the success is incredible, but this year will see the succession plan and also we are talking about less than 2k watches a year including the Elegante collection.

I do not trust Richemond, and trust them less after last year, they are gready and if they are ready to screw there own employees, why would they hesitate to screw their collectors?

P.S. These are serious allegations for Patek, let's wait and see.

[CastorKrieg]

Originally Posted by Bosscheto

For reference, Patek did not ask for government support, (which was surprising considering they invested over 1 billion in the new building without any credit. "Sterns do not like banks", Thierry Stern said) paid in full the bonuses for the previous year and did not decrease the salaries. Patek was voted officially as best employer in the Watch Industry for 2020 btw.

This is one of the reasons why I respect Patek as a company - Thierry can come across as too brash or direct but when it comes to life decisions his heart is always in the right place. I still remember this quote from an interview:

I know that if I have Patek Philippe well secured with good reserves, when bad times will come, I can save Patek. Most of the brands today they don’t have any reserves, and I don’t understand that.

Which executive will be honest enough to talk like that?

The article in the OP doesn't contain a single concrete allegation.

[Billfav]

Not sure how the news media is in Switzerland or the EU, but (in my opinion) here in the US they run with any alleged scandal or story with unnamed sources they can get there hands on (not saying this is the case here with PP).

Then there is a court of public opinion based on these allegations and unnamed sources, which I am glad based upon the replies in this thread does not seem to apply. Until an investigation is done I take stories like that and many others in the media with a grain of salt and would not think twice about pulling the trigger on a PP until the facts are in.

Thanks to the OP for the post, and especially the translation. I did have to google what mobbing was.

[italiafan]

Don’t care in the least.

[AK797]

You keep saying allegedly and that is absolutely right, we see so much trial and revenge by media and social media nowadays that victims are now becoming just as oppressive with mere allegations, so I'd wait on anything until there is due process and an official and/or judicial verdict has been given.

[Bosscheto]

Patek is in a very specific position because it is hugely profitable, but not that big and often has anti Stern campaigns and speculations for sales. Even Forbes wrote an article a couple of years ago, and Thierry Stern addressed it publicly, which is rare.
Maybe is the Geneva situation, AP does not have the same problems, they are family owned, not entirely family run, but have strong family presence in the board of directors.

Rolex is so big, it is pointless to even speculate around them. Everything is so secretive and toned down, very conservative as a culture. The biggest story around them last year was that it turned out they have both several large buildings in Geneva, and the tenants had no idea that the owner is Rolex. They have subsidiaries running their financial investments with different names. It turned out they own two major buildings in London as well.

Needless to say, last year Rolex paid everything in full - salaries, bonuses did not take government support and kept on business as usual. AP took little support - 1 or 2 million, and then donated it to charity, and also opened their new Museum which is quite impressive.

Ironically part of the speculations were that Rolex will buy Patek because they are aligned often with ADs, common positions on trading shows, both companies quite conservative, and at the same time fundamentally different - one is artisanal hand made (although some purist will debate this) - the other is the finest industrial luxury product ever made.

[Robine]

Wait - are you saying that the usual way of running a company, as it is being preached by the single source of truth, the U.S., with being listed on a stock exchange, managed with a short-term view and a focus on shareholder value, knee-jerking to Wall Street analyst named Brad or Tyler, with a high Gini coefficient in the company and a CEO/Chair duality, bullshit advertising and ruthless harvesting of customer data, no employee rights and a total neglect of stakeholders needs....

....is not ideal, and both Rolex and PP and doing something right in the way they are running their businesses???????

What's next - no more ice cubes in Brad's Bordeaux?

[Will_L]

If true it would be sad to hear that these things happen at any company.... but it hasn't been proven yet, so we do not know.

We do know that all big brands on this world, directly or indirectly, rely on cheap (child) labor in countries that are the worst. Heck, the world championships soccer is build on (according to Amnesty) 6500 building casualties and slave labor......

And nobody cares........ And these facts are out in the open and proven. So no, i do not think that this incident will tarnish the Patek brand

[nosignalbmwdriver]

Lol who’s reading this trash

[DoctorA]

If true, it would be real sad! I’ve been looking to get my first Patek but will have to wait and see if those are true allegations or mere disgruntled employees!! Not that Patek is waiting on my decision or waiting for my business but to me it’s a matter of principle

I always believe the truth lies in the middle, but also know that no smoke without fire. I will maintain a neutral position for now until more is revealed either way.

[Uros]

In todays world these allegations are quite heavy. Patek should probably run full independent inquiry and publish results…


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[DoctorA]

Originally Posted by Uros

In todays world these allegations are quite heavy. Patek should probably run full independent inquiry and publish results…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I totally agree! And while those allegations have not been confirmed, I’m a little puzzled with the lack of response from Patek!

Allegations are part of companies daily routine, but when it comes to racism, harassment and unfair treatment, you usually hear a statement from the company. Which I’m hoping to see from Patek

I will not be taking a side but watching the situation closely

[unknown]

And even if so....
Once talked to a Jew who said me he would never buy a Lange cause it’s German.

Some people are just nuts I think.

Just get over it

[vman]

Originally Posted by unknown

And even if so....
Once talked to a Jew who said me he would never buy a Lange cause it’s German.

Some people are just nuts I think.

Just get over it

I've heard this argument many times. As I Jew, I do not have a problem with Germany or German goods and services. While I can understand the sentiment, it is pointless because to move on forward, we gotta stop fighting wars of the past.

[azizu]

Originally Posted by Bosscheto

I have no idea, what is happening in Patek, I live in Switzerland, but I hope this is properly investigated. With regards to VC, last year there was a massive scandal in Switzerland with Richemond, you can google it, was all over the papers.

Basically, when the factories were closed down - Richemond received government support, (which I do not blame them for, if the government is closing down your factories) but Richemond refused to pay the bonuses for 2019 (Bonuses are paid typically at the end of first quarter of the following year) citing potential liquidity issues, slashed flat 20% all salaries BUT increased with 40% the compensation package of their 8 man team board of directors.

For reference, Patek did not ask for government support, (which was surprising considering they invested over 1 billion in the new building without any credit. "Sterns do not like banks", Thierry Stern said) paid in full the bonuses for the previous year and did not decrease the salaries. Patek was voted officially as best employer in the Watch Industry for 2020 btw.

In Switzerland we hear rumors about Patek at least once a year. Thierry is divorcing, the kids do not like watches, Patek will be sold ... bla bla bla. We are used to it. In Suisse Romand there is a great pride that a Family owned and family run company is so successful.

LVMH and Richemond would buy it in a heartbeat. One of the reasons why we see such a massive premium on the secondary market is the great way the company is managed. Which is tricky because the Sterns pay special attention to collectors while producing a high number of watches over 60K. You look at FP Journe, the success is incredible, but this year will see the succession plan and also we are talking about less than 2k watches a year including the Elegante collection.

I do not trust Richemond, and trust them less after last year, they are gready and if they are ready to screw there own employees, why would they hesitate to screw their collectors?

P.S. These are serious allegations for Patek, let's wait and see.

thanks for the informative response.
i find it hard to trust Richemont and LVMH too, Patek is the brand i love and adore. their watches are pieces of art.
i find every $ spent in Patek as something that will remain for my kids and hopefully appreciate in value. i don't feel the same about about ALS, VC, Blancpain, Breguet, Richard Mille etc
hard to explain

[azizu]

Originally Posted by unknown

And even if so....
Once talked to a Jew who said me he would never buy a Lange cause it’s German.

Some people are just nuts I think.

Just get over it

hard not to enjoy a Porsche or a Mercedes just because it was made in germany. espically when the product is great and holds value well

however with ALS, the product is great but doesn't hold value (at all )
i've always think that the free market is good judge of actual worth of goods...why aren't people lining up to buy ALS like they are with PP and AP?

[Fort Rolex]

Let’s give this traction and try and get demand down ;)

[tom2517]

Whether the allegations are true or not it won’t change much. Child labor connected with Nike, Apple, and etc., and what happened? The products still sells like hot cakes. As long as the product is good (and in Patek's case even appreciate in value), people will turn a blind eye.

[Robine]

Originally Posted by vman

I've heard this argument many times. As I Jew, I do not have a problem with Germany or German goods and services. While I can understand the sentiment, it is pointless because to move on forward, we gotta stop fighting wars of the past.

And why would you? Faith is not nationality, and the current Germans have not harmed anybody.

[watchucallit]

The issue with Lange is more than being German-- at one point Lange worked closely with the Nazi leadership. Nevertheless, I don't hold the current company responsible for the actions or beliefs of what others thought or did in the distant past unless the same sentiment is present within the company culture. I am Jewish and I have no issue buying and in fact own 3 Lange pieces

Originally Posted by unknown

And even if so....
Once talked to a Jew who said me he would never buy a Lange cause it’s German.

Some people are just nuts I think.

Just get over it

[RoscoPico]

Originally Posted by azizu

hard not to enjoy a Porsche or a Mercedes just because it was made in germany. espically when the product is great and holds value well

however with ALS, the product is great but doesn't hold value (at all )
i've always think that the free market is good judge of actual worth of goods...why aren't people lining up to buy ALS like they are with PP and AP?

it's a good point, however, i really don't buy watches with any concern of future value. i pretty much understand it's money spent on a hobby i enjoy. i also don't trust the market, or masses of people, in general. if i did i would believe 40k is reasonable for a daytona.

Originally Posted by watchucallit

The issue with Lange is more than being German-- at one point Lange worked closely with the Nazi leadership. Nevertheless, I don't hold the current company responsible for the actions or beliefs of what others thought or did in the distant past unless the same sentiment is present within the company culture. I am Jewish and I have no issue buying and in fact own 3 Lange pieces

touche