Full Ceramic - Future or Fad?

[Gravity]

Lately I have been really drawn to the perpetual ceramic, black in particular. The aesthetics are just unlike anything else in the collection and I'm really drawn to how unique and low profile it is. I have always liked the looks of some of the aftermarket "blacked out" pieces but would just never do that to a watch and really like that AP did it in house, which was no easy task. This piece seems to be very similar to the 15407 in that it is a "boutique exclusive" and there is really no exact number on production. We see estimates from AP that they are shooting for 100 pieces a year but now with the white version, will they be making 100 of each or will that cut into the total for each color? I actually would have liked them to just make it a limited edition like the ceramic tourbillon. I for one don't mind paying more for something numbered where you know the exact edition size. Anyway, I don't see the piece discussed much here lately and have been offered one so I thought I'd spark up discussion on it again. Might very well be in the collection soon :)

[systematic.entropy]

Ceramic is still a novelty. It's for people in the know. It is still not known enough in mainstream to not be immediately disregarded as "cheap looking" by laypeople. I think AP has the actual manufacture down pretty well, and I don't think it'll go away.

As far as FULL ceramic? I think the bracelet manufacture is a difficult application. Time will tell if popular general use is too stressful on a ceramic bracelet. Being an exceptionally hard material, ceramic is not good in tension. The primary stress on a bracelet IS tension. Who knows, in three years we may see piles of AP bracelets failing from cyclic loading.

[Lgear080]

Having tried on the black version I can safely tell you it’s not for everyone. It’s so light that it borders on feeling cheap, the bracelet has some sharp edges and it wears so small the original number of links were not adequate for my 7” wrist. That said it’s a real sight to behold and left me questioning if I could sell everything to purchase it.

Legitimately I’d be concerned about dailying the watch as wear and tear wouldn’t be a good idea. Would like a second go around w the correct number of links to reconsider the watch.

[Gravity]

Originally Posted by systematic.entropy

Ceramic is still a novelty. It's for people in the know. It is still not known enough in mainstream to not be immediately disregarded as "cheap looking" by laypeople. I think AP has the actual manufacture down pretty well, and I don't think it'll go away.

As far as FULL ceramic? I think the bracelet manufacture is a difficult application. Time will tell if popular general use is too stressful on a ceramic bracelet. Being an exceptionally hard material, ceramic is not good in tension. The primary stress on a bracelet IS tension. Who knows, in three years we may see piles of AP bracelets failing from cyclic loading.

I find it interesting that ceramic is known for being far superior to steel and most metals for wear and abrasion resistance but many are expressing concerns about it being too brittle and as you mentioned that it may have issues over time with tension wear. I'd like to think that AP worked on this over the decade they were perfecting the process. From what I understand the process involves a hybrid mixture of metals and ceramic and this is one of the reasons it took them so long to find the right one to balance the strengths of each. I'd also think being that this edition was far from rished that AP took their time is testing them as well. Time will tell but it would be devastating for the brand if they had issues with their ceramic process they have been boasting so much about.

[tyler1980]

fad no question. they are super cool but lets be honest. IMO its the same category as TT or YG to some extent. They go in and out of popularity. White metal (SS and therefore WG and PT as far as the color) is always in.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by Gravity

I find it interesting that ceramic is known for being far superior to steel and most metals for wear and abrasion resistance but many are expressing concerns about it being too brittle and as you mentioned that it may have issues over time with tension wear. I'd like to think that AP worked on this over the decade they were perfecting the process. From what I understand the process involves a hybrid mixture of metals and ceramic and this is one of the reasons it took them so long to find the right one to balance the strengths of each. I'd also think being that this edition was far from rished that AP took their time is testing them as well. Time will tell but it would be devastating for the brand if they had issues with their ceramic process they have been boasting so much about.

i don't think AP makes their ceramic cases. someone was talking about that a while back. could be wrong but i vaguely remember it coming up

you still cant change the chemistry of ceramic being hard and more brittle though. Its going to shatter vs dent if you drop it on the floor

[systematic.entropy]

Originally Posted by Gravity

I find it interesting that ceramic is known for being far superior to steel and most metals for wear and abrasion resistance but many are expressing concerns about it being too brittle and as you mentioned that it may have issues over time with tension wear. I'd like to think that AP worked on this over the decade they were perfecting the process. From what I understand the process involves a hybrid mixture of metals and ceramic and this is one of the reasons it took them so long to find the right one to balance the strengths of each. I'd also think being that this edition was far from rished that AP took their time is testing them as well. Time will tell but it would be devastating for the brand if they had issues with their ceramic process they have been boasting so much about.

Completely agree. I HOPE AP did their homework, and I suspect that they did. But, without actual field testing (and that takes real time), it's all theoretical. However, from an engineering standpoint, ceramic or even a hybrid, just seems like an odd choice for a bracelet. And something like bracelet construction becomes an engineering task of a whole different animal than movement architecture. The loads and forces are of an entirely different magnitude.

I know we are talking about luxury goods here. But, for me, the form has to somewhat follow function. You can't move one step forward in manufacturing with a new material, if you are moving two steps back in performance.

Magic is created when art meets technology in a perfect balance. Maybe AP did it here, maybe it will miss the performance mark. Time will tell.

[Lgear080]

I don’t think the cf would hold up to any serious wear. Even brushing it against a wall. It just feels very fragile.

[Gravity]

Time will definitely tell, but I can't imagine they would have released it without some serious field testing, scrapes, drops and stress tests of all sorts. Real world stress testing shouldn't be hard at all. Bad part here is with so few around, it's almost impossible to try on to get a feel for it. Anyone in LA with one wanting to meet up for a nice single malt and a cigar on me please PM

[PJ S]

Originally Posted by Gravity

…
I'd like to think that AP worked on this over the decade they were perfecting the process. From what I understand the process involves a hybrid mixture of metals and ceramic and this is one of the reasons it took them so long to find the right one to balance the strengths of each.
...

AP, like the majority of the industry, uses the rather mundane Zirconium Oxide form of ceramics.
No metal is contained within the mix, but there are ceramics other industries use which do.
RADO, for the moment, are at the top of the ceramic tree in the watch industry, using the tougher and harder Silicon Nitride in the three LE Hyperchrome Ultralight models produced in 2016.
They also introduced cermet (which is possibly what you were thinking of) back in 93-94, iirc, something which AP has used for the bezel on special edition Offshores (Trulli and Schumacher) and a unique titanium openwork piece.

[T3F]

It sucks, don't buy it. Put me in contact with AP so I can purchase it -- I'm more than happy to do the public service of taking it out of circulation so nobody else makes the terrible mistake of buying one.

In all seriousness, I think ceramic (and just the use of more exotic materials in general) will become more common. It allows to a really unique look and has the technical advantage of being very scratch-resistant, which is huge given the way APs are finished.

[mspeed76]

AP needs to step up their materials game.

Since cermet (which is amazing btw), almost a decade ago, there has been nothing new..

I like forged carbon but even panerais carbotech is better

Concept watches with a titanium bezel are a disappointment

[Gravity]

Originally Posted by PJ S

AP, like the majority of the industry, uses the rather mundane Zirconium Oxide form of ceramics.
No metal is contained within the mix, but there are ceramics other industries use which do.
RADO, for the moment, are at the top of the ceramic tree in the watch industry, using the tougher and harder Silicon Nitride in the three LE Hyperchrome Ultralight models produced in 2016.
They also introduced cermet (which is possibly what you were thinking of) back in 93-94, iirc, something which AP has used for the bezel on special edition Offshores (Trulli and Schumacher) and a unique titanium openwork piece.

Appreciate the insight

[mobster600]

Ill let you guys be the gunniea pigs before i buy one LOLOL

[AK797]

Omega use the ZrO2 on their dials and they look great but I think using it on the case and bracelet is something that AP should specialise more in, nearly everyone agrees they look fantastic with the new vertical style finishing, and while Rolex and PP have a march on them over the RO, this material should be used more widely by AP to keep up with them, esp on the simpler models, the Code is not really going to do it.

[domo69]

Fad, just look at the Chanel J12.

[Tomas Eriksson]

From the punishment I have given my ceramic diver over the years Im not worried. True it's a little brittle and small chips could be acquired, but those won't be be visible even two feet away.

Regarding manufacturing, there was a video a few years back showing how AP makes there ceramic cases. Will try to find it

[milgauss1349]

From everything out there st this point fad


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[RHIII]

Originally Posted by milgauss1349

From everything out there st this point fad


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Isn’t that the truth!


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[Burlington]

It will never become mainstream with the type of finishing AP offer - the bracelet taper also means each segment is unique to the next making production that bit more complex.

It’s a great looking watch and if you have the chance to pick one up, seriously worth considering.

Ceramic will never replace stainless steel or PM as the ‘go-to’ for watches, but it’s a fairly amazing, even if a little fragile, alternative.

[AK797]

Originally Posted by domo69

Fad, just look at the Chanel J12.

J12 has been going strong for years now, and replaced Cartier Tank as the Rolex Sub equivalent.

[milgauss1349]

There’s a discussion on CWC WRT ceramic cases and bezels that might be interesting to some. Personally I’ll stick to the usual metals, precious and not, and avoid any potential disappointment. From what the web has to say though ceramic is going the way of big watches and didn’t turn out to be the super material that it claimed to be.

This said the use of 904L is starting to spread to companies like Ball and others in SE Asia which is interesting to see. I’d like to see the use of hardened steels make its way down to more brands but again time will tell...

Ceramic - The Good, Bad and Ugly! Opinions?
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[milgauss1349]

Duplicate

[wiswrist]

I don't think it's a fad. At least not for AP.

The way AP does ceramic is on another level compared to anyone else. AP's ceramic watches don't have the cheap look that some other full ceramic watches do. And I think it all comes down to the hand finishing. Most other CE watches are all polished/shiny/uniform. AP's finished product (essentially finishing CE just like it's SS/PM/TI - with a mixed of polished and brushed surfaces) looks so much more premium IMO.



vs something like this ...

[sechsgang]

Ive had mine for about 8 months now and it's been flawless. Holds up awesome and it's beyond special/low key which is a great mix to have.

[Gravity]

Originally Posted by sechsgang

Ive had mine for about 8 months now and it's been flawless. Holds up awesome and it's beyond special/low key which is a great mix to have.

I do love the "low key" aspect of it.

[domo69]

Originally Posted by AK797

J12 has been going strong for years now, and replaced Cartier Tank as the Rolex Sub equivalent.

I can't speak to this claim, but every time I visit a Chanel boutique is with my wife and 9 of 10 time the SA would see my ROO and would ask me if I would be interest in buying their J12, often offering a heavy discount.
Just my .02

[GB-man]

possible fad but who cares. Sick watch worth buying!

[PJ S]

Originally Posted by domo69

I can't speak to this claim, but every time I visit a Chanel boutique is with my wife and 9 of 10 time the SA would see my ROO and would ask me if I would be interest in buying their J12, often offering a heavy discount.
Just my .02

The J12 is, and always has been, a quality fashion timepiece – it’s never once tried to claim to be anything other than that, and certainly not haute horlogerie.
It’s been around since 1999, and you should spend a bit of time reading about it.

Not sure why you’re complaining about saving money if you took them up on their offer.

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/ch...19-introducing

[Xelorpepsi]

I haven’t had the chance to see the 26579CE in real life, but the watch looks absolutely gorgeous!

Whether it’s a fad or not, only time will tell. Ceramic may not be as popular as a few years back when every single fashionable woman was wearing a J12, but as mentioned earlier they are still going strong. If you go places like Marbella this summer, you’ll see that they remain very popular. The same way, remember what people were saying about the strap of the Aquanaut ten years ago... now everybody would kill to get one!

Anyway, if you purchase one, I can’t wait to read your review!