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Old 2 March 2015, 03:00 AM   #151
polarinda
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If u read my first post, i did not say the seller was from HK but just a seller online.
Seems like Ben is the only one with tons of vintage beauties online for sale leading to everyone identifying him from all corners...and me affirming his identity to the effect.

But in case you havent realised, this first post is not about Ben. This thread should be about the watches he sells that i have doubts with..

Ben may not have modified them in any way..but he may have bought them already modified or not..no one knows.

So is asking if such modifications are plausible BEFORE they reach Ben implying that Ben was in some way involved? Surely not. I fail to see why some of you are seeing it that way.

Just because the watch you are selling was modified doesnt mean you did it or that you knew it was done.

Everyday, i see many posts up watches asking for opinions here. When responders say they look genuine without even touching the watch in question, do we ask them to show proof of originality before declaring their opinions valid? Surely not. A doubt is as good as an affirmative opinion online. One say it's fake, the other say is genuine. It's their rights to say whatever they want.

Besides, what makes Ben so special to be immuned to scrutiny if we really wanted to? He is a seller like thousands of sellers online. But my query is not to scrutinise him, but his watches..and specifically about the patina.

They may well be untouched since birth no one will ever know or be able to prove. But i am only asking the availablity of techniques to determine such. No answers so far. That is all i really need to hear.

When buying vintages, surely you cannot just buy the seller. Isnt what this forum is for? Look out for each other? First thing you would ask when thinking of buying one would be "is it real?" Please look around this subforum...queries on vintages pieces is a daily affair and routinely asked and answered with or without authority.
What makes my query so controversial? I really do not know.

And for those who said one needs to show proof if we think something is not genuine, how about this? Next time you comment on a vintage piece to be looking like original and untouched, Prove It Too!

Btw, im neither a dealer or a direct competitor of Ben. Please enjoy buying or selling to him as you wish.


Ps: you are welcomed Subtona :)
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Old 2 March 2015, 07:48 AM   #152
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Trav ofcourse you have the right to ask anything, as anybody have the right to comment their opinion on any watch. I think it will be more right if you post the watch you are interested in at first place and try getting opinions of others about that particular piece. There will always be opinions, some good - some not. You can pick what make sense for you and make your desicion
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Old 2 March 2015, 09:19 AM   #153
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Trav ofcourse you have the right to ask anything, as anybody have the right to comment their opinion on any watch. I think it will be more right if you post the watch you are interested in at first place and try getting opinions of others about that particular piece. There will always be opinions, some good - some not. You can pick what make sense for you and make your desicion
True.
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Old 2 March 2015, 10:16 AM   #154
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I for one don't discount either verison of events and leave it to members here to make their own minds up based on what we know so far till someone posts some definitive proof. There have been some examples of Bens watches in threads posted above that showed he was not always fully on top of his game as far as period correct parts on some watches he had for sale were concerned and hopefully he's improved on that and we don't see any more of those threads. Offcourse buyers will see that in poor light. Also some members mentioned that too many questions needed to be asked to verify the condition of a watch for sale with him and some other sellers since the pictures or advertisement didn't always represent the true condition. I think sellers should ensure that any issues are already stated in their sale ads i.e any defects like crazed dials, scratches, over polished cases, chipped dials stated upfront to be trusted in this game. Then offcourse on the other side, we have members who have actually bought good or excellent examples from him that have stood an RSC or expert evalaution and the buyers are happy with.


Now to the main accusations on this thread about tampered patina or laser welding cases. Discounting what Ben has stated as his reply to the accusations, the only reason that I would like to see proof is so that members here like myself, with no deep technical expertise like the experts, get educated on how to detect a piece they think has been tampered with.
The question to ask is if seller "X" sold a watch with a matching patina on hands and dial and a fat case instead of Ben , would we be able to see it with the same amount of skepticism and ask the same questions and be able to evaluate if it's been tampered with?
Or alternatively if we can't tell, do we always go for a battered well used watch over one that's in perfect condition which always seems to draw in the big prices we are willing to part with? Buying a watch from the original owner is also another way but only if we can tell that it has been serviced with no modifications?
Hence the need to share any knowledge some expert members might have. Secondly, proof is only asked when things go wrong just like in a court, no one asks for proof when businesses do the right thing, only when they are suspected of doing the wrong thing so that both parties are done right by. Offcourse we can act as watchdogs and whistle blowers before the fact but we will need evidence to support that.

But no harm the OP or anyone asking questions and expecting answers to their suspicions, just some semblance of evidence is required from expert members to assist with those assumptions. Else the hobby will just be based on assumptions and not on fact and evidence, which will make watch collecting unattractive as some members here have already stated have quit the game to go modern.
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Old 2 March 2015, 11:12 AM   #155
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Or alternatively if we can't tell, do we always go for a battered well used watch over one that's in perfect condition which always seems to draw in the big prices we are willing to part with? Buying a watch from the original owner is also another way but only if we can tell that it has been serviced with no modifications?
I've been thinking about this as well.

Buying ragged but honest examples may be the next frontier because at this point, its unlikely that someone cracked a dial, overpolished a case and put together corroded uneven hands on purpose. For my next piece I may consider going with something obviously untampered with but far from perfect.

I'm thinking it may be time to give up on these supposed virginal 50 year old watches unless we are comfortable with knowing they likely had some controlling 'ex-boyfriends' in the past that changed them deep down
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Old 2 March 2015, 11:43 AM   #156
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I've been thinking about this as well.

Buying ragged but honest examples may be the next frontier because at this point, its unlikely that someone cracked a dial, overpolished a case and put together corroded uneven hands on purpose. For my next piece I may consider going with something obviously untampered with but far from perfect.

I'm thinking it may be time to give up on these supposed virginal 50 year old watches unless we are comfortable with knowing they likely had some controlling 'ex-boyfriends' in the past that changed them deep down
Not sure about that. Where do you think all the bad parts go to when they are replaced with good parts?
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Old 2 March 2015, 05:23 PM   #157
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There is a very nice watch here: http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=399747

I am NOT saying this watch has been altered in any way. I am just commenting on the photo representation of the same watch in different photos.
As seen in the photos the impression can vary quite a bit depending of the photo exposure for each photo of the same watch.

So maybe some dealers just like to present most of their watches with a darker looking patina in their photos.

One should ask for a greyscale next to the watch in the photo in order to determine if how the photo is exposed.

To the patina discussion - without pointing at anyone - I have read / heard about following dial procedures: Cigar smoke, cigarette smoke and baking oven.

Bezels put in chemicals and left in the sun to get the ghost look.

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Old 7 March 2015, 01:49 AM   #158
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i would like to hear from people who bought orange patina watches from the seller. we know that tritium develops orange patina when it is stored away from sunlight for YEARS but will lighten up when exposed to sunlight. for those that bought orange patina watches from him, did your patina lighten up when you started wearing it?
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Old 7 March 2015, 01:59 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by jfmiii View Post
i would like to hear from people who bought orange patina watches from the seller. we know that tritium develops orange patina when it is stored away from sunlight for YEARS but will lighten up when exposed to sunlight. for those that bought orange patina watches from him, did your patina lighten up when you started wearing it?
That is a great question
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Old 7 March 2015, 03:26 AM   #160
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when patina is too good to be true

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfmiii View Post
i would like to hear from people who bought orange patina watches from the seller. we know that tritium develops orange patina when it is stored away from sunlight for YEARS but will lighten up when exposed to sunlight. for those that bought orange patina watches from him, did your patina lighten up when you started wearing it?
I got my birth year watch from Ben 3 years ago. It's a 1971 MK. IV 1680 complete with double punched papers. Had it authenticated by RSC and they found no fault with the watch.

The case is still thick but not sharp while the dial has even dark patina. Here's a picture of the watch when it was offered to me, typical of Ben's pictures:



Picture of the watch under broad daylight right after I bought it from Ben:



Latest picture of the watch taken a couple of weeks aho. Notice that the patina of the dial has lightened up but still relatively even and matching in shade with the hands (I replaced the insert with a faded one):



Latest picture with the original insert. Sometimes I think the faded insert makes the patina look lighter due to less contrast:



I've currently put the watch back in its box and plan to keep in the safe for several months, in the hopes that the patina would darken again. Will update you people once I bring it out again after 6 months.

Cheers!
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Old 7 March 2015, 05:14 AM   #161
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Curious to see your findings as any change in color will definitely be an indication that the lume plots are unaltered (at least my opinion as "painted" plots would stay relatively the same shade). My 16800 plots have lightened quite a bit since I first bought it a year ago or so.

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Old 7 March 2015, 06:47 AM   #162
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i would like to hear from people who bought orange patina watches from the seller. we know that tritium develops orange patina when it is stored away from sunlight for YEARS but will lighten up when exposed to sunlight. for those that bought orange patina watches from him, did your patina lighten up when you started wearing it?
It won't lighten overnight, but it will over several years. I have a 16750 that I wear daily that went from a creme patina to white but it occurred over many years not months or even a couple years.
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Old 7 March 2015, 07:44 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by s1nn3d View Post
I got my birth year watch from Ben 3 years ago. It's a 1971 MK. IV 1680 complete with double punched papers. Had it authenticated by RSC and they found no fault with the watch.

The case is still thick but not sharp while the dial has even dark patina. Here's a picture of the watch when it was offered to me, typical of Ben's pictures:



Picture of the watch under broad daylight right after I bought it from Ben:



Latest picture of the watch taken a couple of weeks aho. Notice that the patina of the dial has lightened up but still relatively even and matching in shade with the hands (I replaced the insert with a faded one):



Latest picture with the original insert. Sometimes I think the faded insert makes the patina look lighter due to less contrast:



I've currently put the watch back in its box and plan to keep in the safe for several months, in the hopes that the patina would darken again. Will update you people once I bring it out again after 6 months.

Cheers!
Very nice piece
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Old 13 March 2015, 07:00 AM   #164
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This thread is living proof that in today's world anyone with a strong personality and a keyboard is an instant "expert".
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Old 13 March 2015, 11:08 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by s1nn3d View Post
I got my birth year watch from Ben 3 years ago. It's a 1971 MK. IV 1680 complete with double punched papers. Had it authenticated by RSC and they found no fault with the watch.

The case is still thick but not sharp while the dial has even dark patina. Here's a picture of the watch when it was offered to me, typical of Ben's pictures:



Picture of the watch under broad daylight right after I bought it from Ben:



Latest picture of the watch taken a couple of weeks aho. Notice that the patina of the dial has lightened up but still relatively even and matching in shade with the hands (I replaced the insert with a faded one):



Latest picture with the original insert. Sometimes I think the faded insert makes the patina look lighter due to less contrast:



I've currently put the watch back in its box and plan to keep in the safe for several months, in the hopes that the patina would darken again. Will update you people once I bring it out again after 6 months.

Cheers!
hi I would say that your pics make it look better than it looks in Bens pic. lovely watch.
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Old 13 March 2015, 11:16 PM   #166
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why are the lume color of all the watches purchased from this seller and posted in this thread have the same color?
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Old 14 March 2015, 12:54 AM   #167
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No it not the same !
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Old 14 March 2015, 01:00 AM   #168
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Here is mine , which bought from ben
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Old 14 March 2015, 01:05 AM   #169
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And here another one , not the same colour
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Old 14 March 2015, 05:56 AM   #170
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To answer the Op's original question, here is a pic of a modern watch. NIce patina, no?
So the answer is "yes" a dial can easily be manipulated as well as the bezel insert and I will say (of course IMHO) that the vast MAJORITY of those fine, vintage examples out there for sale are FAR from virginal… if you know what I mean…
Have a great day!
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Old 14 March 2015, 06:03 AM   #171
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This thread is living proof that in today's world anyone with a strong personality and a keyboard is an instant "expert".
Is that coming from an expert?
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Old 14 March 2015, 07:43 AM   #172
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Old 14 March 2015, 11:41 AM   #173
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this thread is going places....
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Old 14 March 2015, 11:55 AM   #174
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To answer the Op's original question, here is a pic of a modern watch. NIce patina, no?

So the answer is "yes" a dial can easily be manipulated as well as the bezel insert and I will say (of course IMHO) that the vast MAJORITY of those fine, vintage examples out there for sale are FAR from virginal… if you know what I mean…

Have a great day!

"Virginal" LMAOOOOO !!!!

🙈🙈🙊🙈🙉🙊🙈🙉🙊


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Old 14 March 2015, 12:24 PM   #175
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This thread rocks


time travel would explain it all handily.
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Old 14 March 2015, 12:37 PM   #176
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This thread is living proof that in today's world anyone with a strong personality and a keyboard is an instant "expert".
Strong personalities have always controlled conversations, not just in today's world. The "get off my lawn" shit is getting old.
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Old 14 March 2015, 07:36 PM   #177
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To answer the Op's original question, here is a pic of a modern watch. NIce patina, no?
So the answer is "yes" a dial can easily be manipulated as well as the bezel insert and I will say (of course IMHO) that the vast MAJORITY of those fine, vintage examples out there for sale are FAR from virginal… if you know what I mean…
Have a great day!
Picture tells a thousand words
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Old 15 March 2015, 12:43 AM   #178
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Strong personalities have always controlled conversations, not just in today's world. The "get off my lawn" shit is getting old.
So true. Some people should just stick to new watches and forget about vintage...
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Old 15 March 2015, 01:39 AM   #179
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Here are two I bought from the seller in question at the same time. 1965 GMT and 1968 5513. Patinas are different. Bought over a year ago when I fully admit my knowledge of vintage was minimal. He told me they were all original when quite clearly the bezel inserts are later replacements. From everything I've looked into the dials seem accurate and untampered. So the patinas are not all the same, but the descriptions of the watches he sells are not accurate, at least in my case.

[IMG][/IMG]
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Old 15 March 2015, 02:24 AM   #180
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Here are two I bought from the seller in question at the same time. 1965 GMT and 1968 5513. Patinas are different. Bought over a year ago when I fully admit my knowledge of vintage was minimal. He told me they were all original when quite clearly the bezel inserts are later replacements. From everything I've looked into the dials seem accurate and untampered. So the patinas are not all the same, but the descriptions of the watches he sells are not accurate, at least in my case.

[IMG][/IMG]
Very nice GMT....
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