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Old 28 March 2023, 11:52 AM   #241
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Thanks for writing that: good to get a similar comparison from another sport. Interesting how they call it ‘the code’, because isn’t there an unofficial position on teams (at least there used to be, I think) called ‘the enforcer’?

What’s somewhat interesting to me is the tension of how ‘playing fair’ is internally policed in a really over-the-top manner. Can’t say I like it, as I dislike all forms of violence and machismo.

Well hockey is a different sport than most in that it’s very hot blooded, full contact and very fast. The violence is built in, but players expected to get hit and dish out hits. When players cross the line they can expect to be called out and drop the gloves.

There has been a lot of discussion about fighting in hockey and the people that don’t understand that it’s actually a pressure valve, that can lead to less violence and not more. There was a time in the early days of hockey where players went after each other with sticks and cases of careers ending from getting hit in the head from someone clubbing them. One player back in the 30s or 40s was never the same in real life again.

The enforcer you talked about was usually a player on each team who was really just a fighter who basically protected the star and smaller players from cheap shots from “the rats” on the opposing teams. There was actually a fraternity of those enforcers and a great deal of respect from each other. And they were very much appreciated by their teammates.

There is also the fact that a hockey fight has a primal testosterone producing affect of ramping up a team that is playing poorly. The tempo of the game usually increases considerably and so often teams will send out an enforcer to start a fight just to jumpstart the team. There is also a lot the fan base that gets off on hockey fights.

These days there are very few enforcers but generally a couple of good players that deal with that aspect. Teams can’t afford a roster spot for just a one dimensional fighter.

Philadelphia Flyers thought that big tough guys were still going to win you games, but with the young speed and talent in the game now, they got left in the dust. So now every team has far more of a balance of speed, talent and still a few rugged hard nose guys that can still play the game.

There have been funny instances of 2 brothers on opposing teams getting into a fight and the mother calling them that night and telling them to never do that again.

There was an early season game where there was a fight and the one player was the best man at the other guys wedding a couple of months earlier in the offseason.

There were guys that fought that were previously roommates when on the road for road games.

After games it wasn’t unheard of for players to go out for a beer together and some meet up by the dressing rooms to chat, generally with former teammates, or guys from other teams they train with in the offseason of do charity stuff with.
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Old 28 March 2023, 12:44 PM   #242
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Well hockey is a different sport… After games it wasn’t unheard of for players to go out for a beer together and some meet up by the dressing rooms to chat, generally with former teammates, or guys from other teams they train with in the offseason of do charity stuff with.
Highly enjoyable post.

I know what you mean about how fighting can get the blood and testosterone pumping and somehow rally a side. It’s somehow part of the mythos of Australian rugby league’s ‘State of Origin’ series, where the first origin game in 1980 had a big fight with many following. That annual series is marketed as ‘state against state and mate against mate’, and as nuts as it sounds, fighting seems like an effect of how momentous and intense the games are.
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Old 28 March 2023, 02:19 PM   #243
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Highly enjoyable post.

I knowwhat you mean about how fighting can get the blood and testosterone pumping and somehow rally a side. It’s somehow part of the mythos of Australian rugby league’s ‘State of Origin’ series, where the first origin game in 1980 had a big fight with many following. That annual series is marketed as ‘state against state and mate against mate’, and as nuts as it sounds, fighting seems like an effect of how momentous and intense the games are.
Ironically in hockey, playoff time, 16 teams make the playoffs, so to win the Stanley Cup you need to win 4 best of seven series (16 wins) and it’s a battle of attrition. But there are rarely any fights.

No team wants to take the chance of extra penalties from cheap shots, because one stupid penalty can cost you a game and ultimately the series, and the cup. So during the most intense hockey imaginable the enforcers were rarely needed in the lineup.

There is nothing like playoff hockey. The Stanley Cup is the hardest trophy in sports to win.
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Old 28 March 2023, 03:19 PM   #244
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Ironically in hockey, playoff time, 16 teams make the playoffs, so to win the Stanley Cup… There is nothing like playoff hockey. The Stanley Cup is the hardest trophy in sports to win.
Hey man, this is a baseball thread! I do enjoy these musings on hockey though. Your enthusiasm for it is obvious and good to read.
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Old 28 March 2023, 08:21 PM   #245
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Seems like a reasonable time to rede posit this jewel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm9ROhg_FkQ
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Old 28 March 2023, 08:26 PM   #246
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Seems like a reasonable time to rede posit this jewel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm9ROhg_FkQ
Strange ethos. The pitcher can use a weapon against the batter. But the batter is bare handed against the pitcher. If batters weaponized the bat fewer pitchers would be inclined to intentionally throw at a batter. Fair is fair, after all.
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Old 28 March 2023, 08:42 PM   #247
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Strange ethos. The pitcher can use a weapon against the batter. But the batter is bare handed against the pitcher. If batters weaponized the bat fewer pitchers would be inclined to intentionally throw at a batter. Fair is fair, after all.
It’s part of the code
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Old 28 March 2023, 10:45 PM   #248
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Strange ethos. The pitcher can use a weapon against the batter. But the batter is bare handed against the pitcher. If batters weaponized the bat fewer pitchers would be inclined to intentionally throw at a batter. Fair is fair, after all.
Well it has happened at least four times in the MLB.

In 1965, Giants pitcher (and then-future Hall of Famer) Juan Marichal got mad enough to take a bat to the Dodgers’ Johnny Roseboro’s unprotected head. Roseboro needed 14 stitches, but the two later became close friends. Trauma bonding? https://www.mlb.com/video/marichal-r...ge_video-share

In 1972, during game two of the American League Championship Series, Athletics shortstop Bert Campaneris got hit by a pitch and threw his bat at Tigers pitcher Lerrin LaGrow’s head, just missing him. https://youtu.be/SEBMZBEgxQI

In the 2000 World Series, Roger Clemens threw Mike Piazza’s broken bat at him while Piazza ran to first. A bit confused himself, Clemens explained he was just “filled with energy” and thought the bat was the ball. Um, but why would you throw the ball at the runner, anyway? https://youtu.be/QNTWUPsPrJ8

And in 2014, then-Oriole Manny Machado (a ‘dirty player’ according to Christian Yelich) intentionally threw his bat, during a late swinging strike, at Athletics third-baseman Alberto Callaspo. Machado was in a stink after being pitched at twice and probably also because he was 0 for 7 in his last at bats. But why was he pitched at? Earlier that series, Machado threw his helmet in the direction of A’s third baseman Josh Donaldson after getting tagged out a little too forcibly, and he twice accidentally hit A’s catcher Derek Norris in the face with the follow-through of his swing, smirking instead of asking if Norris was okay (Norris wasn’t, and had to leave the game). Not much in any of it I think, but throwing the bat was insane. https://youtu.be/d9CzjwJja3U
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Old 28 March 2023, 10:52 PM   #249
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… But there are rarely any fights.

There is nothing like playoff hockey. The Stanley Cup is the hardest trophy in sports to win.
except I sometimes miss the old playoff hockey … the Broadstreet Bullies and guys like Probert

Edit: sorry for the thread de rail folks …. Batter up
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Old 28 March 2023, 11:08 PM   #250
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Seems like a reasonable time to rede posit this jewel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm9ROhg_FkQ
That must be a meme for biting off more than you can chew: imagine not only getting hit by a Nolan Ryan pitch, but only seconds later, many of his precisely hammered punches. Can’t believe Ryan didn’t break his pitching hand. I guess that’s what “don’t mess with Texas” means?
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Old 29 March 2023, 01:02 AM   #251
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Hey man, this is a baseball thread! I do enjoy these musings on hockey though. Your enthusiasm for it is obvious and good to read.
Which brings up the existential conundrum if one can hijack one's own thread????

Hmmmmmm.

It's all above my pay grade.
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Old 29 March 2023, 01:27 AM   #252
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Oh yes, I forgot you kicked this one off! With the words, “I don’t follow baseball but…”. There’re now as many pages as there are regular innings in a game, but half of them are on hockey.
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Old 29 March 2023, 02:01 AM   #253
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Oh yes, I forgot you kicked this one off! With the words, “I don’t follow baseball but…”. There’re now as many pages as there are regular innings in a game, but half of them are on hockey.
Maybe the tread had become too slow so I changed channels to hockey.
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Old 29 March 2023, 02:16 AM   #254
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I hear this is the hockey thread?
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Old 29 March 2023, 03:06 AM   #255
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I hear this is the hockey thread?
Keep your head on a swivel and your stick on the ice.
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Old 29 March 2023, 05:13 AM   #256
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That must be a meme for biting off more than you can chew: imagine not only getting hit by a Nolan Ryan pitch, but only seconds later, many of his precisely hammered punches. Can’t believe Ryan didn’t break his pitching hand. I guess that’s what “don’t mess with Texas” means?
It's a bad look all the way around, that's for sure.
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Old 29 March 2023, 05:32 AM   #257
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It's a bad look all the way around, that's for sure.
LOL. My favorite part of that incident is the age difference between the two.
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Old 29 March 2023, 05:34 AM   #258
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I guess other sports have their own way of dealing with "internal infractions".
There are certainly consequences to actions, as there should be.
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Old 29 March 2023, 07:13 AM   #259
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LOL. My favorite part of that incident is the age difference between the two.
Right? If I recall correctly Nolan Ryan was something like 46 and Robin Ventura was 26. Ventura toted a wheel barrow full of old man asswhoopin'

That's what you get when you charge the man.
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Old 29 March 2023, 07:45 AM   #260
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Like hockey, fighting in baseball has declined. But it does happen and it can be great.

Here is one of my favorites: https://youtu.be/vbdvlX1j77w
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Old 29 March 2023, 07:46 AM   #261
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Like hockey, fighting in baseball has declined. But it does happen and it can be great.

Here is one of my favorites: https://youtu.be/vbdvlX1j77w
Yeah that's a classic. It also happens off camera.
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Old 29 March 2023, 08:19 AM   #262
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Yeah that's a classic. It also happens off camera.
I bet you have stories for days about the ones we never see!

I have two close friends whose brief minor league careers ended with fights in an office with THEIR OWN MANAGER. The alpha is stronger in the game than fans realize!

Product of the 70's that I am, I loved the fights and the contact at second and the plate. The game has changed!
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Old 29 March 2023, 11:47 PM   #263
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I bet you have stories for days about the ones we never see!

I have two close friends whose brief minor league careers ended with fights in an office with THEIR OWN MANAGER. The alpha is stronger in the game than fans realize!

Product of the 70's that I am, I loved the fights and the contact at second and the plate. The game has changed!
Yeah, people have no idea. I am not surprised by that. Virtually 100% of professional athletes are extraordinarily competitive alpha males and it shows. More often than not, the fights aren't even malicious, just a result of emotions getting the best of you. I believe Matt made a comment about the violence and machismo, unfortunately a lot of that is ingrained in the game, even from guys you wouldn't expect it from. You just don't see it.
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Old 31 March 2023, 06:32 AM   #264
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A decent article.

The comments section was sort of mixed.


https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/27/s...a98d9ddd0088d2
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Old 31 March 2023, 07:06 AM   #265
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Thanks Blansky. Will get to this later today. Gee, Adam Wainwright can really sing. https://sports.yahoo.com/mlb-opening...204745547.html
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Old 31 March 2023, 07:12 AM   #266
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I love all of the new rules, but still have this feeling that they could have handled the shift differently.

Brandon Belt bunted for a couple of doubles last year. Ohtani could have bunted for doubles at about a.333 clip (he'd need to homer at least a .165 clip to equal that). I know, bunts suck, but the shift would have shifted quickly, if you will. The whole "they should just hit it the other way" isn't quite as realistic as those people claim, but I think for a certain type of lefthanded hitter, that bunt double was wide open. I think, but we never saw it play out.

The big opening for SB as a result of the pitch clock and throwover changes are going to change the catching position a bit, too.

Most MLB catchers tend toward either framer/receiver or thrower; it's only a handul of guys that are great framers AND great throwers. We've been seeing framers thrive as SB decline. This may shift that trend toward the throwers, but it will be exciting to see it play out.

One of the best defensive catchers ever told me a few years back that his theory is that catchers will stop blocking balls in the dirt in the near future, and these rules changes could even speed that process up.

The theory there is that modern baserunners are increasingly taught to run on the "down angle" (the moment they see that the ball is on a trajectory that shows it will hit the dirt), and that average major league running speed then makes it nearly impossible to block a ball in the dirt, collect it and get to your feet, and still throw that headstart out. So he theorizes that MLB catchers will have as their only chance a pick and throw.

And since MLB catchers are actually so amazingly good at picking balls out of the dirt, they will pick a high enough percentage of balls to make the down anglers adapt. And when the ball doesn't get picked cleanly, the runner was going to be safe anyway. And in the instances where the catcher misses entirely, and it goes to the backstop, the runner is running head down and (with some help from middle infielders) sliding into second. Guys who go on the "down angle" only reach second currently (at the MLB level), even when the pitch gets by the catcher, so it wouldn't, in most cases, result in the runner taking third. It's a pretty interesting theory and he remains influential with current catchers. Who knows!

The pitcher's underrated defense against the SB, though, was his ability to hold the ball and vary that timing. With that largely gone, and the number of throws limited...it might not matter who the catcher is.

Somewhere, Rickey is wondering how many bases Rickey could steal if Rickey came out of retirement.
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Old 31 March 2023, 07:14 AM   #267
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Yeah, people have no idea. I am not surprised by that. Virtually 100% of professional athletes are extraordinarily competitive alpha males and it shows. More often than not, the fights aren't even malicious, just a result of emotions getting the best of you. I believe Matt made a comment about the violence and machismo, unfortunately a lot of that is ingrained in the game, even from guys you wouldn't expect it from. You just don't see it.
Hopefully nothing like the sauna fight scene in Eastern Promises. Idea for a post-career coffee table book? Losing it in the Locker Room. Could include all sports, with a photographed dramatisation of Roger Federer taking it to Stan Wawrinka behind closed doors, tennis’s unseen version of “keep my wife’s name out your f—— mouth!”
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Old 31 March 2023, 07:16 AM   #268
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With things like rule changes...., there is always the law of unintended consequences.

We'll see.
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Old 31 March 2023, 07:46 AM   #269
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Hopefully nothing like the sauna fight scene in Eastern Promises. Idea for a post-career coffee table book? Losing it in the Locker Room. Could include all sports, with a photographed dramatisation of Roger Federer taking it to Stan Wawrinka behind closed doors, tennis’s unseen version of “keep my wife’s name out your f—— mouth!”
Here's my favorite, told to me from the person who had the most to lose by telling the story.

A ball. 2002. The manager is an average-sized former MLB journeyman middle IF who made his chops in the early '70's. Decent career (a ring even), but no pension and trying to work his way through. The player is a beast physically, 6-2, 230; he's a 1B and a stereotypical alpha.

Manager tells the player, in his office, that they can settle their beef right then and there, in that little office, and that the loser will leave the team.

Turns out, if you fight your manager, especially in his office, even with an invitation, the organization will release you before you get back to your locker, basically.

When he was released moments later, he was told not to worry...that even if he'd have won the fight, they'd have still released him and kept the manager.

The player told me that when he left the manager's office after that fight, his first thought was that he finally believed the guy had played in the Bigs.

Player never played affiliated ball again, despite having been the org's up and coming HR guy at the time. The manager was done after a few more seasons there.

I know another former minor league pitcher who was challenged to a fight in the manager's office. He responded by clearing the manager's desk of everything. They exchanged verbal unpleasantries, but there was no physical altercation. He, too, was released quickly, never to play affiliated ball again.
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Old 4 April 2023, 08:14 AM   #270
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Must admit, with this new pitch clock I’m enjoying the pace more.
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