End of Crypto?

[Mifune]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Side question: Cost difference to produce a physical $1 versus $100 Fed Res Debt Note currency...

Extra bonus question... versus a US Mint silver Dollar money.

I don't have information on cost basis for those currency items... but suffice to say that gold, silver platinum sovereigns are not rare, limited or without price influence manipulation.

My point was not the currency itself but what backs them.

[SDGT3]

The way to make money in crypto is to sell the computers needed to "mine" as well as the electricity to power those operations.

[Mifune]

Originally Posted by dmash

I’m not against crypto and dabbled in it around 2016 on the first ‘run up’.

But anybody with half a brain can put together that when a bunch of underage kids are even making money and screaming ‘to the moon’ rocket emoji, and talking about how they’ll never need a job……it’s pretty obvious it’s not going to last.

Blackrock
Fidelity
iTrust Capital
Sequoia Capital
Galaxy Digital
Grayscale investments
Microstrategies
Tesla
and
Sovereign nations... and I can go on and on.

this can't possibly be the list of under-aged kids screaming 'to the moon'...

[Mifune]

Originally Posted by scarlet knight

One of my employees told me her son was into crypto. I told her it had no store of value. The Treasury can print money, corporations have profits, bonds are backed by revenues, bridge tolls, sewer, water, etc.Even gold can be sold for a price. Crypto is based on nothing.

Going to nuthin’ fast.

At its last peak Bitcoin was a 1.3 trillion dollar asset and was in the top ten of ALL ASSETS in terms of value... saying 'No store of value' makes ZERO sense.

before you say 'where is the value now' take a look at the other legacy market valuations and you will see that no assets class was left unaffected by the effects of the worlds financial troubles.

The treasury quantitative easing is primarily the reason we are in this economic situation we are in now, so making a state that the fed can print money is not ideal and misguided. IN FACT, the fed does not 'print money', the fed prints currency and that IS NOT the same thing. USD is NOT money.

[Mifune]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

The way to make money in crypto is to sell the computers needed to "mine" as well as the electricity to power those operations.

manufacturing or reselling asics units is indeed one way of making money in crypto... just like being a general contractor is a way to make money in real estate.

Energy usage is the main 'talking point' for people that do not understand what really occurs in the mining segment. are you sure you want to go there?

[Mifune]

Originally Posted by AzPaul

Tom Brady has had better months.

Truff!

[Mifune]

Originally Posted by huncho

yeah it will get worse for sure, a lot of alts will go to 0 and the space will be abandoned. lol

it's been a long standing understanding that all crypto assets 'trend towards zero' when compared to bitcoin... this is borne out of the reality of the technicals and onchain analysis.

that being said, there is still money to be made in alternative coins/tokens.

my personal philosophy is that I invest in alts in order to gain on Bitcoin because atl coins have a tendency to move faster than Bitcoin.

Originally Posted by huncho

i used to think eth will be up there with btc long term but it feels like that's gonna be a giant question mark now given that it's a essentially a security and always at the center of all these defi borrowing scandals. it feels like almost everything it was meant to be used for is gonna be heavily pushed back on now

Ethereum isn't a challenge to Bitcoin... its not even in the same class of asset. as you know, Bitcoin is a Commodity and everything else is a Security, plain and simple.

[Mifune]

Originally Posted by brandrea

So how do you conduct business in a currency that fluctuates 13% in one day?

I dont think the vast majority, specially enterprise scale entities do not trade or conduct in something like Bitcoin, though you could.

if you use blockchain to conduct a transaction doesn't mean you hold those assets in the token used for that transaction.

The brilliance of Blockchain is that transactions settle in seconds, is immutable, extracts the effects of 'middlemen' and banking institutions, can be automated, is peer to peer or Business to business, and much more.

if folks don't think blockchain isn't integrated in enterprise scale business, you better think again.

[huncho]

Originally Posted by Mifune

it's been a long standing understanding that all crypto assets 'trend towards zero' when compared to bitcoin... this is borne out of the reality of the technicals and onchain analysis.

that being said, there is still money to be made in alternative coins/tokens.

my personal philosophy is that I invest in alts in order to gain on Bitcoin because atl coins have a tendency to move faster than Bitcoin.




Ethereum isn't a challenge to Bitcoin... its not even in the same class of asset. as you know, Bitcoin is a Commodity and everything else is a Security, plain and simple.

yeah my point was that i always thought the two that would ultimately weather any storm are btc and eth. i know they're totally different and what i was saying is i don't know if eth is now as safe as btc as a long term hold because it's a security and the downfall of ftx will potentially bring a lot of scrutiny to eth. btc has no competition in that industry so it's in its own class

[Mifune]

Originally Posted by Mac-Apple

Imaginary money , and imaginary Items (NFT) all will be worthless very soon . Ever hear of One in the hand ? I’ll stick with physical items . Can’t help but think how many billions people will be out . Baseball cards are the next thing to tank unfortunately.

If you think 'physical' assets are not immune to variance, manipulation or fluctuations in pricing... guess again.

Bitcoin is not 'imaginary money' it is real money, the hardest monetary asset ever created and used.

if gold is supposed to be more valuable than seashells based on rarity, guess what... Gold is not rare. Bitcoin is orders of magnitude more rare than Gold.

when the price of gold goes up, they merely mine more... when the price of gold goes down, they mine less.

Simply because you can hold something in your hand does not make that thing hold more value or more real... the effects of Bitcoin are real.

[Mifune]

at this point...

if you are one that is not needing an asset that can hold value long term, have the ability to grow in value thru adoption and 'network effect' and MOST IMPORTANTLY, insulate your net worth against constant currency fragmentation caused by fed issuance, the asset isn't for you.

[superdog]

I suppose I should have known this might be a little contentious.

It was a genuine question about yesterdays news.

As I mentioned, all the markets appear to be in lock step. And I suppose todays CPI data is effecting crypto too.

Interesting times.

[superdog]

Fwiw, I really thought btc was going to absolutely tank. I’m surprised that it hasn’t.

[Mifune]

Originally Posted by superdog

I suppose I should have known this might be a little contentious.

It was a genuine question about yesterdays news.

Interesting times.

I am just trying to make the topic exist with a sense of clarity and not conflation, mischaracterization or outright falsehoods.

I dont think anyone is upset or flagrant.

I waited to respond to let all the opinions come out then addressed them all at once for clarity.

[HHIslander]

Originally Posted by Mifune

Bitcoin is not 'imaginary money' it is real money, the hardest monetary asset ever created and used.
.

if it's real money, then why is it's value entirely determined by how many dollars it can be exchanged for it? Considering the massive price fluctuations in BTC as compared to USD, not to mention the additional transaction costs when making a purchase, and also the potential for a triggered taxable gain, why would anyone choose to use BTC over USD in a transaction?

[Blansky]

Originally Posted by SDGT3

The way to make money in crypto is to sell the computers needed to "mine" as well as the electricity to power those operations.

Reminiscent of the California Gold Rush of 1849ish.

The big money was made not by the guys mining/panning for gold, but from the stores and infrastructure that sold them the means to, and took their money when they showed up in town.

[superdog]

Originally Posted by Mifune

I am just trying to make the topic exist with a sense of clarity and not conflation, mischaracterization or outright falsehoods.

I dont think anyone is upset or flagrant.

I waited to respond to let all the opinions come out then addressed them all at once for clarity.

I don’t think you are doing anything wrong.

I’m actually learning quite a bit from you.

[mountainjogger]

Originally Posted by Mifune

you just made my point... faith in value is all we have regardless of the asset class. not gold, not art, not real estate... nothing physical is truly immutable, physical assets being the basis of your personal idea of value.

what is immutable, is rarity. gold isn't rare, real estate isn't rare art can be rare but is still being generated to this day and into the future and that makes it dilutive.

Bitcoin is rare. there are 47 million millionaires in the world, that means there are not even enough bitcoin for each millionaire to own one full coin.



that is a mischarictarization of the reality of what is happening on a proof of work blockchain because the mining community is not made up of some guy in his basement working math equations.

lets just take your idea of the functionality of bitcoin as being some guy in his basement, this is actually... a good thing.

that is called 'decentralization' and is the first order idea of what Bitcoin represents.

Some guy in his basement, can not generate coins, alter code or corrupt data. the data is immutable, the code is protected against 51% attack and the coins are limited to 21 million.

The bitcoin chain is the strongest most secure network ever designed.

Unregulated means unregulated.

[dmash]

Originally Posted by Mifune

Blackrock
Fidelity
iTrust Capital
Sequoia Capital
Galaxy Digital
Grayscale investments
Microstrategies
Tesla
and
Sovereign nations... and I can go on and on.

this can't possibly be the list of under-aged kids screaming 'to the moon'...

You misinterpret my post to fit your narrative.

I didn't say those people don't exist. I'm saying there's ALSO all these kids making those comments.

Nice try though

[austinp]

Originally Posted by superdog

I don’t think you are doing anything wrong.

I’m actually learning quite a bit from you.

Me too. Thanks MF. I like hearing both sides of this one.


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[superdog]

Originally Posted by austinp

Me too. Thanks MF. I like hearing both sides of this one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Exactly.

I genuinely don’t think I’ll ever invest in crypto. But never say never.

[Old Geezer]

I never invested in crypto, it just seemed like another get rich quick or ponzi scheme and those generally don't work out too well.
I do have a relative in FL that got in a few years ago. He pulled gains out along the way and invested in real estate. He owns 4 rental properties free and clear and a couple of empty lots. I don't know how he is weathering the down turn but he did well for a while and at least has a few assets.

[77T]

Originally Posted by superdog

I genuinely don’t think I’ll ever invest in crypto. But never say never.

I am in that camp as investment - yet I hold some traditional mutual funds and ETFs that have stakes in the companies that benefit from crypto, one step removed. I mean the mining, networking, data centers, computer makers, chip makers and the energy consumption.

It’s the downstream effect created by the demand for those products. As someone said earlier, those who sell into the crypto ecosphere or provide services to it will benefit no matter what the coins or NFTs are doing on exchanges stripping or inflating values.

Like Levi Strauss selling jeans to miners in the 1800’s - he couldn’t lose by staying one step removed from the gold rush.


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[Chester01]

Good riddance. It allows the interwebs to be the wild west and folks to extort or ripoff people with 0 accountability. The fact that crypto was even a thing, just speaks to the current generations exaltation of everything tech, that no one thought well hey, i mean isnt that what we have money for, so sure how can be interweb this, well I have an idea, like interweb money. It never added anything, was not backed by anything or any country, and its value simply up to the vicissitudes of the masses and investors. No thanks.

[OverGeared]

I love how every BTC/NFT argument turns even the most hardcore libertarian crypto-zealots into metaphysical hippies by the end of it. Once their wannabe ironclad defenses of this fake system are broken down, they're always reduced to the same old, "oh yeah? Well, when you think about it, how much of what anyone owns is actually, like, real, y'know? So what's the difference?"

I'd be curious to see how many of these guys saying crap like "BTC is soaring" are also insisting in other threads that Nautilus prices are about to turn a corner.

Any day now, fellas! You're gonna be so right one day, and then we'll all be sorry!

[enjoythemusic]

As i see it, whatever scheme is used to inject additional (as needed) 'currency' to keep consumers confident and consuming is probably desirable. At some point, it may become unpalatable to keep injecting central bank currency for fear of ever-higher devaluation (a.k.a. inflation). And so an alternative, to keep consumers consuming, starts becoming more of a necessity. After all, there is only so much central bank currency that can keep being injected until the perceived value (buying power) reaches its 'intrinsic value' (loss of confidence). Right now the world is experiencing this in action, with a quickening in 'higher' prices for virtually everything as priced in currency.

Perhaps, just perhaps, at some point a new scheme of some sort may be needed to keep confidence with various currency schemes, though migrating to new ones as Europe did with the Euro may make the most sense. One currency, the Euro, eliminated the need for central bankers to micromanage multiple currencies.

If you think about it, today the markets (stocks, bonds, oil, real estate, etc) and handling of transactions are already mostly electronic. In a sense, the world already widely accepts virtual currency each and every day. Every time you use your credit card, for example, or write a check, or electronically transfer funds....

There are far more electronic (virtual) Dollar Debt Notes, for example, than actual physical currency. Rest assured whatever new scheme is needed to keep the confidence and consumer spending going already has years of planning by central banks, it simply has not been implemented yet.

This is not a post for or against concerning BTC or any non-central bank form of transaction for goods and services. We all know the world already accepts virtual currencies (Dollar, Euro, etc).

The bigger question may be how are currencies looked upon if they can be expanded endlessly with a few easy computer keystrokes versus having to be 'worked for'. In the case of debt forgiveness, such as the currently proposed student loan scheme within the USA, may destroy confidence.

How is one to price goods and services that have intrinsic value in an environment of ever-higher currency availability and ease of debt forgiveness due to the ease of creating / destroying a currency via a few computer keystrokes?

If CONfidence is destroyed....

[joeychitwood]

It seems that in addition to computers and large amounts of power to solve puzzles, confidence and belief in crypto is the other absolute requirement for it to be valued.

[Dan Pierce]

Originally Posted by Kinnakeet

I’ll be just fine never buying crypto.

This.

Originally Posted by brandrea

X2. Not in a million years

And that.
dP

[330ci]

Originally Posted by JoeJoeBobo

As this thread progresses BTC is soaring.

Originally Posted by JoeJoeBobo

I believe this thread is less then 24hrs old and in that time BTC is soaring…facts.

Institutional investors and whales are probably doing everything in their power to keep this house of cards afloat. Having dipped below $17k twice now, theres definitely trouble maintaining critical support levels. The market seemed to be rebounding alright, but I have a feeling things are about to get real messy after the quick reversal.

[HMHM]

I think the collapse of crypto will be great! At least young adults will have a sense of reality that without hard work and a proper career, money doesn’t fall from the sky. Show up to work at 8am in the morning and get things done instead of dreaming about being a crypto billionaire like SBF who now might end up in jail. Bloomberg is comparing FTX to Theranos and Madoff - that’s definitely two people you don’t want to be associated with…