Tipping has gotten out of control

[Maleg]

Originally Posted by Blansky

I encountered discrimination yesterday at Tommy Bahamas in Wailea, Maui.

Very upsetting. Me and the Mrs were sitting at the bar where we usually eat, at around 4:30 having a glass of wine and dinner before the blue hairs come out. So an older guy and his wife were next to me and another couple came in and there was only one chair beside them, so the wife sat while the guy stood. The 2 guys were getting along famously. My favorite thing about bar eating is meeting new people. Sometimes.

So anyways the Mrs and I are chatting with each other eating salads with chicken, very good by the way, and the good time Charlie that showed up and talking to the guy beside me was standing with his arms on the back of my chair and juggling my chair. So finally I turned around and asked him to stop.

The two newly minted old bros. turned on me. And then it happened. The guy beside me called me a fuc$i#g tourist. I was shocked and hurt. Not sure why because the entire mall was filled with tourists. But then I remembered the 2 bros. had been extensively discussing the fact they had bought condos, and live in Maui for 6 months of the year.

Me and the Mrs only stay at our timeshare for one month.

I guess when the guy called me a fuc$i#g tourist, I probably shouldn’t have said to him that he reminded me of a marshmallow, but it was heat of the moment. A black cloud descended over our section of the bar.

So anyways shortly afterwards, the marshmallow and wife moseyed out of the restaurant and good time Charlie and his wife sulked a couple of chairs down.

A new couple came and sat beside us and we got to talking with them, but sulking good time Charlie said to him, that he shouldn’t talk to me because I was just a rude tourist. My new bar mate, just looked at him in a quizzical manner and carried on talking to me.

Unfortunately the damage had been done.

Condo ownership vs tourism in paradise had reared its ugly head.

The horror.

There is a derogatory term the real locals use for the tourists. The fact that he used mainland profanity rather than that term should give you license to return fire. My compliments to you for maintaining decorum.

[superdog]

Originally Posted by Blansky

I encountered discrimination yesterday at Tommy Bahamas in Wailea, Maui.

Very upsetting. Me and the Mrs were sitting at the bar where we usually eat, at around 4:30 having a glass of wine and dinner before the blue hairs come out. So an older guy and his wife were next to me and another couple came in and there was only one chair beside them, so the wife sat while the guy stood. The 2 guys were getting along famously. My favorite thing about bar eating is meeting new people. Sometimes.

So anyways the Mrs and I are chatting with each other eating salads with chicken, very good by the way, and the good time Charlie that showed up and talking to the guy beside me was standing with his arms on the back of my chair and juggling my chair. So finally I turned around and asked him to stop.

The two newly minted old bros. turned on me. And then it happened. The guy beside me called me a fuc$i#g tourist. I was shocked and hurt. Not sure why because the entire mall was filled with tourists. But then I remembered the 2 bros. had been extensively discussing the fact they had bought condos, and live in Maui for 6 months of the year.

Me and the Mrs only stay at our timeshare for one month.

I guess when the guy called me a fuc$i#g tourist, I probably shouldn’t have said to him that he reminded me of a marshmallow, but it was heat of the moment. A black cloud descended over our section of the bar.

So anyways shortly afterwards, the marshmallow and wife moseyed out of the restaurant and good time Charlie and his wife sulked a couple of chairs down.

A new couple came and sat beside us and we got to talking with them, but sulking good time Charlie said to him, that he shouldn’t talk to me because I was just a rude tourist. My new bar mate, just looked at him in a quizzical manner and carried on talking to me.

Unfortunately the damage had been done.

Condo ownership vs tourism in paradise had reared its ugly head.

best. line. ever.

thanks for sharing. I got a good chuckle out of that.

[Blansky]

Originally Posted by Maleg

The horror.

There is a derogatory term the real locals use for the tourists. The fact that he used mainland profanity rather than that term should give you license to return fire. My compliments to you for maintaining decorum.

I think the marshmallow did call me a “haole” as well.

One wonders what the cut off is for being Hawaiian. Is it birthright/ancestral or the down payment on a condo.

[OverGeared]

Originally Posted by Blansky

I encountered discrimination yesterday at Tommy Bahamas in Wailea, Maui.
.

That never would have happened at Duke's (or at my wife's favorite: Slappy Cakes.)

[Blansky]

Originally Posted by OverGeared

That never would have happened at Duke's (or at my wife's favorite: Slappy Cakes.)

I probably should stop eating at places above my station in life.

Serves me right.

Jimmy Buffett never wrote any songs about Tommy Bahama restaurants.

[austinp]

Originally Posted by Blansky

I probably should stop eating at places above my station in life.

Serves me right.

Jimmy Buffett never wrote any songs about Tommy Bahama restaurants.

I’m stealing the Marshmallow rip. Perfect mildly offensive comeback. Well done.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Blansky]

Originally Posted by austinp

I’m stealing the Marshmallow rip. Perfect mildly offensive comeback. Well done.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It’s yours.

I mean who doesn’t like marshmallows, right?

[REQUIEMnJADED4U]

Last time I was in LA, I was at some convenience shop right off of Sunset Blvd buying a bottle of water and granola bar. The cashier swung the iPad around and asked me to select my tip amount. I was beyond baffled.

[OverGeared]

Originally Posted by Blansky

One wonders what the cut off is for being Hawaiian. Is it birthright/ancestral or the down payment on a condo.

My litmus test for a legit Hawaiian is your opinion of Captain Cook.

Srsly though, people just love to find any excuse they can to consider themselves "legit" and as many other people as "posers." When my parents hit their mid-50s and moved to Florida, they were down there for less than a year before my mom started referring to everyone else as "snowbirds."

[SDGT3]

Originally Posted by austinp

I’m stealing the Marshmallow rip. Perfect mildly offensive comeback. Well done.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sounds like something Don Rickles would say... BTW, where is he?

[White Collar Boy]

Originally Posted by V25V

Thats an open market. Think you are underpaid, go get a job that will pay you more. If you cannot find that, your market value is evident and you need better or more skills. Our answer seems to be, pay people more for doing the same, or in many cases, less work. It makes absolutely no sense.

Fine in Randian theory, but in practice there are employment regulations to protect people from getting screwed out of what employers said they’d pay.

Asking in genuine good faith: what mechanism within an open market economy protects people in situations where a boss doesn’t pay what was agreed? Not talking about market value, but fleecing.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by White Collar Boy

Fine in Randian theory, but in practice there are employment regulations to protect people from getting screwed out of what employers said they’d pay.

Asking in genuine good faith: what mechanism within an open market economy protects people in situations where a boss doesn’t pay what was agreed? Not talking about market value, but fleecing.

Yes, I’d like to know too Matt.

There will always be a segment of the work force working at the margin. It’s easy to say “upgrade your skills”, but some people, honestly might not have the capacity to do so. The living wage posed earlier is an interesting question.

Of course some of the examples of tipping given here are nonsensical but you can’t make a sweeping statement saying that tipping is out of hand. Some folks depend on them and in fact earn them IMHO

[Maleg]

Originally Posted by White Collar Boy

Fine in Randian theory, but in practice there are employment regulations to protect people from getting screwed out of what employers said they’d pay.

Asking in genuine good faith: what mechanism within an open market economy protects people in situations where a boss doesn’t pay what was agreed? Not talking about market value, but fleecing.

What do you mean by the boss not paying what was agreed? The employees know their base wages are below minimum wage and their total income is based on tips.

[Blansky]

Originally Posted by OverGeared

My litmus test for a legit Hawaiian is your opinion of Captain Cook.

Srsly though, people just love to find any excuse they can to consider themselves "legit" and as many other people as "posers." When my parents hit their mid-50s and moved to Florida, they were down there for less than a year before my mom started referring to everyone else as "snowbirds."

When we first started going to Hawaii 25 years ago, we went to all 4 of the main islands in the first couple of years. Naturally my wife had to buy the guidebooks and we saw every waterfall. Every single one. While on the Big Island she said we had to see Captain Cook’s grave/ monument thing. So we drove around for over 2 hours down every road and trail. Nothing. It’s gotta be here somewhere.

We later found out you can only see it from the water. So my opinion of Captain Cook from that point on has never been on the plus side. I’ve subsequently thrown out all the guidebooks.

That snowbird thing is hilarious. So true. How quickly we become “regulars” or “natives”.

[Maleg]

Originally Posted by brandrea

Yes, I’d like to know too Matt.

There will always be a segment of the work force working at the margin. It’s easy to say “upgrade your skills”, but some people, honestly might not have the capacity to do so. The living wage posed earlier is an interesting question.

Of course some of the examples of tipping given here are nonsensical but you can’t make a sweeping statement saying that tipping is out of hand. Some folks depend on them and in fact earn them IMHO

Pre-pandemic your points were all valid. But post pandemic US businesses that never had tipping before now demand tips. Tipping has become ubiquitous. In that respect, tipping has gotten out of hand.

[JParm]

Originally Posted by Blansky

When we first started going to Hawaii 25 years ago, we went to all 4 of the main islands in the first couple of years. Naturally my wife had to buy the guidebooks and we saw every waterfall. Every single one. While on the Big Island she said we had to see Captain Cook’s grave/ monument thing. So we drove around for over 2 hours down every road and trail. Nothing. It’s gotta be here somewhere.

We later found out you can only see it from the water. So my opinion of Captain Cook from that point on has never been on the plus side. I’ve subsequently thrown out all the guidebooks.

That snowbird thing is hilarious. So true. How quickly we become “regulars” or “natives”.

I think we're 25 years behind you, Blansky. We have been to Oahu, Maui and Kauai, and we are taking the kids to the Big Island for my 40th birthday later this year.

We have no intention of finding Captain Cook monument but will be night snorkeling with the Manta Rays.

[Blansky]

Originally Posted by JParm

I think we're 25 years behind you, Blansky. We have been to Oahu, Maui and Kauai, and we are taking the kids to the Big Island for my 40th birthday later this year.

We have no intention of finding Captain Cook monument but will be night snorkeling with the Manta Rays.

Sounds like a blast. It’s amazing how every different island is a different experience and then people sort of gravitate to their favorite after a while.

Like I’ve said we’ve been close to 50 times now. Maui is number one for us but we still may do a week at a different one just for variety.

Our favorite thing and most memorable is still morning walks 3-10 miles, while the sun is coming up. And of course, sunsets.

My wife and I were talking about all the stuff that’s happened on trips, she had a piece of wood go through her foot, I got sepsis one time, I got vertigo for 5 days one time, we were on our morning walk one year when North Korea supposedly released missiles to the US. One time we got stuck in the airport for something like 14 hours due to a malfunctioning plane. We’ve rented motorcycles, bicycles, kayaks. We took scuba lessons. Her boss was the inventor of the pacemaker, and we spent time on his compound on the Big Island years ago.

And we got to know a lot of bartenders.

I sure with kids the memories are amazing also.

It’s just too bad nobody is around to record your memories for posterity……..oh wait….never mind.

[Old Geezer]

Originally Posted by superdog

Was in Miami a few weeks ago.

They include 20% on everything. As gratuity.

But…they also have an another line for additional gratuity. And the service is, in my experience, provided with a frown. No smiles. No nice attitude. No friendly.

And god forbid you left that additional line blank and went back the next day.

It was frustrating to say the least.

Just got back from Miami yesterday. 18% to 20% added to every meal we dined out whether it was 5 or 6 of us or just my wife and I. A couple of places had a mysterious "FL Fee". I asked about it and got vague responses. I suspect it's just a sucker fee.
There was only one time I added additional tip. The service for the most part sucked in Miami proper and Miami Beach.
I actually don't mind a gratuity being added since I'm tipping anyways but at least crack a smile.

[OverGeared]

Originally Posted by JParm

We have no intention of finding Captain Cook monument but will be night snorkeling with the Manta Rays.

Manta snorkel/diving is an unreal experience. We did it last year and I was almost in shock as to how close they get and how enormous they are when they're brushing past you. Bring a camera (or rent a GoPro from the tour boat) because once it's over the experience will seem so unreal that you'll struggle to be sure if it really happened. Photographic evidence will help a lot.

The best thing about Captain Cook's monument is that it's perpetually covered in red paint. His landing point is of historical significance, but the man doesn't deserve a monument.

He was probably a sh!tty tipper, too.

[White Collar Boy]

Originally Posted by Maleg

What do you mean by the boss not paying what was agreed? The employees know their base wages are below minimum wage and their total income is based on tips.

I just mean withholding pay. I know the US tiered wage system (with ‘tipped minimum’ and ‘sub-minimum’ wages in most states) is different from the Australian context I’m in, but I imagine people still sometimes have the problem of getting paid at all or what they are due.

From earlier posts, Pickettt and V25V briefly mentioned open market economics. Not really knowing anything about economics myself, but being curious and also sensitive about labour exploitation as I’ve experienced it and seen a lot of it firsthand, I was wondering how an open market resolves income theft by some small business owners.

Aware I’m an outsider commenting on another country’s (assuming USA here) customs, I don’t want to be annoying about this. I do wonder if the expanded tipping issue is only ostensibly about money, and more about how the world is changing in ways that take a little of the old dignity away. Such as feeling good about giving a gratuity to someone because you want to, and because it feels right.

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by White Collar Boy

From earlier posts, Pickettt and V25V briefly mentioned open market economics. Not really knowing anything about economics myself, but being curious and also sensitive about labour exploitation as I’ve experienced it and seen a lot of it firsthand, I was wondering how an open market resolves income theft by some small business owners.

Aware I’m an outsider commenting on another country’s (assuming USA here) customs, I don’t want to be annoying about this. I do wonder if the expanded tipping issue is only ostensibly about money, and more about how the world is changing in ways that take a little of the old dignity away. Such as feeling good about giving a gratuity to someone because you want to, and because it feels right.

I think we're talking about two different things here; One is whether or not someone should improve their marketability if they don't earn what they believe is fair. The second is who should pay for it if that person has no motivation to improve his/her earning power.
As for tipping in general, personally, I take very good care of those who take care of me...but I don't OWE it to those who just show up and phone it in.

[Blansky]

As I’ve said on the 5 other tipping threads we’ve had, I’m a big tipper but I also believed that this is basically a well financed lobbying effort by large corporations to screw the public and get them to pay their employees wages so that the corporations can maximize profits. Isn’t it amazing every business has an iPad all of a sudden with a “guilt tip” added feature.

The whole restaurant business model has been able to get away with this scam since forever.

No other business gets to cry that they can’t pay their employees wages, so you have to. And other businesses are picking up on the scam.

It’s basically one big guilt trip. “ Alms for the poor”.

Pay your damn employees.

[Moondoggy]

Originally Posted by Blansky

As I’ve said on the 5 other tipping threads we’ve had, I’m a big tipper but I also believed that this is basically a well financed lobbying effort by large corporations to screw the public and get them to pay their employees wages so that the corporations can maximize profits. Isn’t it amazing every business has an iPad all of a sudden with a “guilt tip” added feature.

The whole restaurant business model has been able to get away with this scam since forever.

No other business gets to cry that they can’t pay their employees wages, so you have to. And other businesses are picking up on the scam.

It’s basically one big guilt trip. “ Alms for the poor”.

Pay your damn employees.

This 100% i vaguely remember a while ago there was a movement in the hospitality industry to actually pay the workers a decent wage and erode tipping was in NY from memory, well guess what the industry had a hissy fit and basically said we will sack all our workers and close shop.

How tipping started is a very interesting story in itself.

[OverGeared]

Originally Posted by Blansky

Pay your damn employees.

This is (or at least should be) the keystone of this whole discussion. In a better world, people would be paid what they're worth by their employers, and any kind of gratuity would be a welcome-but-not-expected perk. But we don't live in that world, and while I understand the thought process of someone who sees people working for tips and says they should "improve their marketability if they don't earn what they believe is fair," there are myriad mechanisms in America's economy to keep people from doing just that.

It's an unfair system designed to f*** the people at the bottom. I don't have the ability to change that system any more than anyone else here, but we do have the ability to recognize people in need and act accordingly.

[Blansky]

Originally Posted by OverGeared

This is (or at least should be) the keystone of this whole discussion. In a better world, people would be paid what they're worth by their employers, and any kind of gratuity would be a welcome-but-not-expected perk. But we don't live in that world, and while I understand the thought process of someone who sees people working for tips and says they should "improve their marketability if they don't earn what they believe is fair," there are myriad mechanisms in America's economy to keep people from doing just that.

It's an unfair system designed to f*** the people at the bottom. I don't have the ability to change that system any more than anyone else here, but we do have the ability to recognize people in need and act accordingly.

While I agree, but when you start with a system that’s upside down, mainly a business doesn’t pay it people, then it’s basically garbage in, garbage out from that point out.

When the initial premise is wrong, everything that follows is wrong.

Start over. Band aids don’t work. Every company that starts a business has employee wages included in the business plan……except food service/restaurants.

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by OverGeared

This is (or at least should be) the keystone of this whole discussion. In a better world, people would be paid what they're worth by their employers, and any kind of gratuity would be a welcome-but-not-expected perk. But we don't live in that world, and while I understand the thought process of someone who sees people working for tips and says they should "improve their marketability if they don't earn what they believe is fair," there are myriad mechanisms in America's economy to keep people from doing just that.

Just for clarity, my statement applies to all, not just those who work for tips. As a black man born to two drug addicts, I'm keenly aware of the mechanisms in place here in the United States to keep people poor. I also acknowledge the opportunities available here to make something of oneself should we pursue success instead of pursuing reasons not to succeed. Of course, I realize my case is anecdotal.

[TheVTCGuy]

I have a semi-funny, interesting story about tipping. I play poker once a month at the local casino. We are talking 1-3 No limit or 4-8 limit, so a few hundred dollars is risked (and usually lost). It is customary when you win a pot, to tip the dealer. It is totally up to you of course, but I can tell you players at the table will “encourage” players to do this. One night, there was a very nasty man… Just take my word for it. He NEVER tipped the dealer, after winning some very nice pots, we “encouraged” him to throw her a lousy dollar when he is winning these big pots, but he said basically to …. Well, mind our own business. These are friendly games and people not showing respect are made miserable buy a lot of methods from other players. Anyway, what we did at the table, whenever A@@ Hole won a pot, EVERYONE of us other players tipped the dealer. He screamed and yelled but we ignored him. He called the floor (management) who told him anyone can tip the dealer at anytime regardless of who won the pot. He blew a gasket, but we were enjoying it so much we kept doing it. As a matter of fact, we would all fold pre-flop and tip the (very nice) dealer so he couldn’t play and just got more angry. Finally he left the casino and we all clapped.

Anyway, that’s my tipping story.

[Moondoggy]

My understanding and happy to be corrected is tipping started with slavery, in simple terms one slave was better then the other so to retain the more “productive” slave they offered them money which was initially unheard of.

When the word was out well we all know money talks.

Tipping is out of control in the US, how to dilute it I am unsure, maybe employee and employer meet half way as a starting point.

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by Blansky

As I’ve said on the 5 other tipping threads we’ve had, I’m a big tipper but I also believed that this is basically a well financed lobbying effort by large corporations to screw the public and get them to pay their employees wages so that the corporations can maximize profits. Isn’t it amazing every business has an iPad all of a sudden with a “guilt tip” added feature.

The whole restaurant business model has been able to get away with this scam since forever.

No other business gets to cry that they can’t pay their employees wages, so you have to. And other businesses are picking up on the scam.

It’s basically one big guilt trip. “ Alms for the poor”.

Pay your damn employees.

Originally Posted by OverGeared

This is (or at least should be) the keystone of this whole discussion. In a better world, people would be paid what they're worth by their employers, and any kind of gratuity would be a welcome-but-not-expected perk. But we don't live in that world, and while I understand the thought process of someone who sees people working for tips and says they should "improve their marketability if they don't earn what they believe is fair," there are myriad mechanisms in America's economy to keep people from doing just that.

It's an unfair system designed to f*** the people at the bottom. I don't have the ability to change that system any more than anyone else here, but we do have the ability to recognize people in need and act accordingly.

Yes exactly. This is how it works in France. Servers are paid a real wage. They are treated as professionals, with respect and essential to the restaurant. Customers pay the price, including gratuity.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

Yes exactly. This is how it works in France. Servers are paid a real wage. They are treated as professionals, with respect and essential to the restaurant. Customers pay the price, including gratuity.

Back to the … “what is a living wage” question.

I agree with you FWIW.