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Old 1 April 2020, 09:04 PM   #4681
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The other disappointing thing is the constant comparison of countries and their death tolls etc

Each country has a unique demographic and creating a Ďleague tableí is not helpful at all.

Without getting political at all I see one country has been spending a fair amount of time talking about the U.K. today in less than positive terms. I donít see how this helps their own country at all other than to try to make them look better?


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There seems to be more "positioning" by certain, individual countries in the global spotlight than addressing the problem, IMHO.
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Old 1 April 2020, 09:06 PM   #4682
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There seems to be more "positioning" by certain, individual countries in the global spotlight than addressing the problem, IMHO.

Agreed.


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Old 1 April 2020, 09:08 PM   #4683
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https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/...h-15167883.php

I have been following this for awhile. What I do not understand is that the Navy (as do the rest of the US Armed Forces) perform NBC Training regularly. What that ship needs to to is don their NBC suits and have an active drill.

This is an opportunity to test the "B" aspect of our equipment. If this were a "war" we would be in a bad situation with a ship of this importance out of commission.
Thanks for posting.

Thatís a horrifying situation that I knew nothing of. I donít pretend that I even know what you are posting about. I donít.

This will be something I pay close attention to though. Itís a terrifying scenario. But also a bit reassuring in the fact that none of these sailors are yet to fall ill with serious symptoms.

This will be something of a case study in that itís clear everyone on board will be exposed to it. Hopefully no one falls ill from this.
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Old 1 April 2020, 09:13 PM   #4684
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In my opinion, the media have been disgusting, they have continually criticised and seemed to revel in embarrassing people in charge, they have done nothing to help, shown no spirit and have caused panic and chaos when there has been no need. I am all for a freedom of press and their ability to hold any Governments feet to the fire but this is ridiculous, all they seem to do is get so called experts to cast different views to those in charge.

Well put Sir.

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Old 1 April 2020, 09:30 PM   #4685
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Old 1 April 2020, 09:38 PM   #4686
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Posted February 27th in response to a comment made by me. This is not meant to be a "I told you so." Because I really didn't. It was just my best guess at the time and even my answer evolved.

This situation itself truly has evolved. Devolved maybe is a better word.
And that’s exactly what they’ve done. Pretty much destroyed the world economy. Of course our “experts” here in the United States have changed their numbers two or three times and are now down to 100,000 240,000 dead. I’ll bet you a buffalo nickel they will revise that number again significantly. That’s not the worst of it. I can’t speak for any other country other than the United States but the scariest part here is how quickly my fellow citizens have given up their constitutional rights. It happened at an astonishing pace and has me extremely concerned for the future. Fear is the recipe for control.
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Old 1 April 2020, 10:08 PM   #4687
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I disagree that citizens have surrendered their rights. If a business does not want to close, if a person wishes to not “shelter in place” or “socially distance”, they don’t have to. Then, if an official tries to force them or punish them, they can challenge the constitutionality in court. It happens all the time in the US.
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Old 1 April 2020, 10:09 PM   #4688
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What constitutional right have we given up?
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Old 1 April 2020, 10:23 PM   #4689
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I canít speak for any other country other than the United States but the scariest part here is how quickly my fellow citizens have given up their constitutional rights. It happened at an astonishing pace and has me extremely concerned for the future. Fear is the recipe for control.
Brett:

I agree that fear is a recipe for control. But the flip side is that constitutional rights have always had limits.

Both the state and federal government exercised pretty strong measures in the 1918 Spanish Flu, not to mention the repurposing of industry, rationing, curfews and travel restrictions both the states and the federal government in WWII.

And the country survived.

Stay safe.
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Old 1 April 2020, 10:29 PM   #4690
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Of course our “experts” here in the United States have changed their numbers two or three times and are now down to 100,000 240,000 dead. I’ll bet you a buffalo nickel they will revise that number again significantly.
This isn’t a fair criticism. I see you run a business. You have projections for sales and profit. I presume that you revise your projections when you make an investment in your business or when you cut costs and those numbers change.

The initial projections given - I think 2 million dead in the USA - were an estimate of deaths if nothing was done and nature was allowed to take its course. The new numbers are a reflection of what’s more likely with the measures that have been implemented to flatten the curve. Exactly the same revisions happened here after we changed course.

Now you might legitimately disagree with the course of action being taken as a result of those numbers, but the fact that they’re changing in itself isn’t a sign of incompetence or malign intentions.
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Old 1 April 2020, 10:30 PM   #4691
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And thatís exactly what theyíve done. Pretty much destroyed the world economy. Of course our ďexpertsĒ here in the United States have changed their numbers two or three times and are now down to 100,000 240,000 dead. Iíll bet you a buffalo nickel they will revise that number again significantly. Thatís not the worst of it. I canít speak for any other country other than the United States but the scariest part here is how quickly my fellow citizens have given up their constitutional rights. It happened at an astonishing pace and has me extremely concerned for the future. Fear is the recipe for control.
OK Brett. Let me first ask who are "they". I believe They are we = all of us. Globally. Right? We are all in this together Ö.. right?

Numbers change because the situation is fluid. This should not cause any concern. If the number goes lower as you predict then that's fantastic and means the increasingly tighter measures are working ÖÖ. right?

If the world was a normal place right now I might actually agree with you but its not. Historically when many fellow citizens are facing possible death or permanent radical changes to their freedoms people have been willing to temporarily suspend some freedoms for the good of the fight. It has never been looked at as a great concern for the future. In fact its actually been looked upon as a great patriotic sacrifice. I'll use your earlier example of the large number of people who sacrificed their lives in multiple wars.

Why do you think this is any different?

"Fear is the recipe for control" ----- how about "Fear of the unknown is the recipe for overreaction and irrational thought" Now is not the time for fear. Now is the time for brave rational thought and action.
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Old 1 April 2020, 10:39 PM   #4692
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Okay. Let’s not all jump on Brett please.

He too is dealing with this in his way. As we all are. His thoughts are just as valid as everyones thoughts. And his perspective has validity as well.
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Old 1 April 2020, 10:39 PM   #4693
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In my opinion, the media have been disgusting, they have continually criticised and seemed to revel in embarrassing people in charge, they have done nothing to help, shown no spirit and have caused panic and chaos when there has been no need. I am all for a freedom of press and their ability to hold any Governments feet to the fire but this is ridiculous, all they seem to do is get so called experts to cast different views to those in charge.
Good post, concur.
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Old 1 April 2020, 10:39 PM   #4694
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And thatís exactly what theyíve done. Pretty much destroyed the world economy. Of course our ďexpertsĒ here in the United States have changed their numbers two or three times and are now down to 100,000 240,000 dead. Iíll bet you a buffalo nickel they will revise that number again significantly. Thatís not the worst of it. I canít speak for any other country other than the United States but the scariest part here is how quickly my fellow citizens have given up their constitutional rights. It happened at an astonishing pace and has me extremely concerned for the future. Fear is the recipe for control.
Itís pretty exhausting to read your posts. You continue to be wrong, provide terrible hot takes and now the nationís recovery plan is a constitution problem?

ďFear is a recipe for controlĒ

Is that what you think is happening? ...the government trying to control us?
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Old 1 April 2020, 10:41 PM   #4695
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Brett:

I agree that fear is a recipe for control. But the flip side is that constitutional rights have always had limits.

Both the state and federal government exercised pretty strong measures in the 1918 Spanish Flu, not to mention the repurposing of industry, rationing, curfews and travel restrictions both the states and the federal government in WWII.

And the country survived.

Stay safe.
Thank you my friend you and I just disagree. Iím kind of caught up on the ďshall make no lawď part.

There isnít a clause in the first amendment that says ďUnless of course thereís a virus and an unelected national doctors say soĒ. Once a slippery slope has been established itís all downhill from there. We see it already happening all over the US with a different amendment now donít we? We have other first world western nations that in times past had basically the same type of First Amendment rights we have in the United States and youíve seen those diminished considerably so if youíre counting on our sophistication and progress as a free country to prevent that from happening here thereís that as a precedent. I feel that you believe government will relinquish the unprecedented power they just took when all this is said and done but Iíll believe it when I see it. If you recall your history when they initiated the income tax they promised it would go away just as soon as we paid for World War I. How did that work out?
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Old 1 April 2020, 10:41 PM   #4696
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Question:

Is there a list of countries that are not embracing, or unable to embrace the social distancing standards? I know I saw a few.

Clearly, some eastern countries had a lockdown.
Some western countries are doing what they can and most people are adhering.

But it appears some countries are doing mostly nothing. I’m curious which ones they are. I’d like to follow them and see how things unfold there in comparison.
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Old 1 April 2020, 10:45 PM   #4697
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Itís pretty exhausting to read your posts. You continue to be wrong, provide terrible hot takes and now the nationís recovery plan is a constitution problem?

ďFear is a recipe for controlĒ

Is that what you think is happening? ...the government trying to control us?
Yes itís unpopular to disagree on this thread. I disagree with you yet Iím not hammering you over the head with an emoji or criticizing you.

But I have this on my side. The very people that told you 2 1/2 million Americans were going to die have revised their position on it two or three times now. Letís see how many more times they revise it. In last nights news conference they already prepared us for just that.
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Old 1 April 2020, 10:45 PM   #4698
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Look, with case numbers and deaths doubling every few days, in two weeks we will either have the curve flattened or we (“we” being pretty much the world) will be in a hell of a mess- hospitals overwhelmed everywhere, not just Italy, Spain and NYC. Know what? Two weeks will get here, whether we like it or not.

I do think it’s time to prepare for that world. We will need:

1. Testing on demand, nationally (and internationally)
2. Ready availability of gloves, masks and sanitizer.
3. Availability of any medicines that could be of use.
4. Availability of ventilators.
5. Citizens to behave - maintain Social distance as we resume our lives (as we must,inevitably), stay clean, most vulnerable to self quarantine- preferably due to a desire to help as well as social pressure (social pressure is constitutional until the masks go on and the torches come out).
6. Assist other nations in the world in need, as soon as possible.

I know the US leadership is working on 1 and 4. Hopefully 2, 3 and 6 as well. Number 5 is on us.
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Old 1 April 2020, 10:47 PM   #4699
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Someone we know directly great grand mother just died, mid 90s and 3 forms of cancer however she was tested and came back positive for covid and died this week. She will be counted as a covid death. There is great area here with the numbers is all i guess in trying to say.

As she should be, if the virus is what caused her death. Not to be blunt, and sorry for the loss.
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Old 1 April 2020, 10:47 PM   #4700
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Question:

Is there a list of countries that are not embracing, or unable to embrace the social distancing standards? I know I saw a few.

Clearly, some eastern countries had a lockdown.
Some western countries are doing what they can and most people are adhering.

But it appears some countries are doing mostly nothing. I’m curious which ones they are. I’d like to follow them and see how things unfold there in comparison.
Sweden is one - currently advising no gatherings of more than 50 people, avoiding social contact if over 70 or at risk and working from home if possible - that is far less stringent than the rest of Europe. I see their example was mentioned positively upthread which confused me as their mortality rate is worse than the USA and more than half of Europe.

It also might be about to get worse for them...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ockdown-europe
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Old 1 April 2020, 10:50 PM   #4701
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Question:

Is there a list of countries that are not embracing, or unable to embrace the social distancing standards? I know I saw a few.

Clearly, some eastern countries had a lockdown.
Some western countries are doing what they can and most people are adhering.

But it appears some countries are doing mostly nothing. Iím curious which ones they are. Iíd like to follow them and see how things unfold there in comparison.
My understanding is that the U.K. and the Netherlands both started out with minimal strictures from the government, but backtracked to the stance of most other developed nations as they numbers started to rise. Sweden is still trying a minimalist approach, but the Swedes may have a unique culture that allows it to work (would love to hear from anyone on the ground in Sweden).
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Old 1 April 2020, 10:51 PM   #4702
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Sweden is one - currently advising no gatherings of more than 50 people, avoiding social contact if over 70 or at risk and working from home if possible - that is far less stringent than the rest of Europe. I see their example was mentioned positively upthread which confused me as their mortality rate is worse than the USA and more than half of Europe.

It also might be about to get worse for them...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ockdown-europe
Thank you. Going to look into this now.
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Old 1 April 2020, 10:56 PM   #4703
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I canít speak for any other country other than the United States but the scariest part here is how quickly my fellow citizens have given up their constitutional rights. It happened at an astonishing pace and has me extremely concerned for the future. Fear is the recipe for control.
Huh?
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Old 1 April 2020, 10:56 PM   #4704
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Another question:

Any info out there on how exercise and keeping yourself healthy helps?

As an asthmatic, I’m working harder to keep my lungs healthy. I’ve always exercised, but I’m now making a point to push my cardio higher to ensure I’m increasing lung capacity. I did hill runs yesterday for example.

And I’ve noticed that I’m using my inhaler less. Just a day or so, so far, but I’ll take whatever I can get.

Anyone posting exercise and healthy lifestyle to help combat getting severe symptoms? I’d love to check out the data or any information on that.

I think it’s telling that out of a ship full of healthy sailors, none of them yet have fallen ill with severe symptoms even while the virus is spreading through the ship.

Can’t find anything about it though.
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Old 1 April 2020, 10:59 PM   #4705
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Many people share different views about unlimited freedoms and rights versus certain reasonable controls for the benefit of the whole.

Staying out of the political, Iíd say some might benefit from considering the philosophy of Justice.

Letís raise the bar - illuminate our social responsibilities in the current situation, and the near-term future, versus a rigid constructionist interpretation of inalienable rights.

Tell me how life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness can really exist if we canít temporarily sacrifice its unlimited exercise in order to save lives?

Otherwise, one has succumbed to the tyranny of intolerance.

Aristotle, Bentham, JS Mill, Locke, Kant, Rawls are all recommended reading.

Iím not holier than anyone - just sharing in the spirit of reflection in our current condition.


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Old 1 April 2020, 11:08 PM   #4706
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Another question:

Any info out there on how exercise and keeping yourself healthy helps?

As an asthmatic, Iím working harder to keep my lungs healthy. Iíve always exercised, but Iím now making a point to push my cardio higher to ensure Iím increasing lung capacity. I did hill runs yesterday for example.

And Iíve noticed that Iím using my inhaler less. Just a day or so, so far, but Iíll take whatever I can get.

Anyone posting exercise and healthy lifestyle to help combat getting severe symptoms? Iíd love to check out the data or any information on that.

I think itís telling that out of a ship full of healthy sailors, none of them yet have fallen ill with severe symptoms even while the virus is spreading through the ship.

Canít find anything about it though.

Good point, I can't remember where in the sea of info I have looked at, but I did read somewhere that maintaining health with cardio and lung capacity was beneficial as well as eating healthy to boost immune function... not sure on the validity of the info, but common sense leads me to believe it... AKA the sailor situation...

but I know sometimes an over active immune system can be a problem too, wasn't that the case with younger healthy people with the Spanish Flu? So should exercise more, less or do the same (which is minimal anyway, hard to get motivated with depressing news everyday)?? Should we take vitamins? I don't kniow.
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Old 1 April 2020, 11:09 PM   #4707
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Many people share different views about unlimited freedoms and rights versus certain reasonable controls for the benefit of the whole.

Staying out of the political, Iíd say some might benefit from considering the philosophy of Justice.

Letís raise the bar - illuminate our social responsibilities in the current situation, and the near-term future, versus a rigid constructionist interpretation of inalienable rights.

Tell me how life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness can really exist if we canít temporarily sacrifice its unlimited exercise in order to save lives?

Otherwise, one has succumbed to the tyranny of intolerance.

Aristotle, Bentham, JS Mill, Locke, Kant, Rawls are all recommended reading.

Iím not holier than anyone - just sharing in the spirit of reflection in our current condition.


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Excellent post
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Old 1 April 2020, 11:09 PM   #4708
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Originally Posted by 77T View Post
Many people share different views about unlimited freedoms and rights versus certain reasonable controls for the benefit of the whole.

Staying out of the political, I’d say some might benefit from considering the philosophy of Justice.

Let’s raise the bar - illuminate our social responsibilities in the current situation, and the near-term future, versus a rigid constructionist interpretation of inalienable rights.

Tell me how life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness can really exist if we can’t temporarily sacrifice its unlimited exercise in order to save lives?

Otherwise, one has succumbed to the tyranny of intolerance.

Aristotle, Bentham, JS Mill, Locke, Kant, Rawls are all recommended reading.

I’m not holier than anyone - just sharing in the spirit of reflection in our current condition.


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Tyranny is the suspension of constitutional rights. It happens one little piece at a time. And the only way it can happen is by a group citizens saying that it’s OK to do this little bit and then a little bit more and then a little bit more and then a few years down the line we find ourselves with no rights. We are going to see some huge supreme court cases over this whole mess and I welcome it. I’m still fascinated how some of you still think once unemployment hits 40%, and that’s predicted by the fed, that these people will all just sit home and say oh well. We have massive problems coming from that in the very near future.

Anyway I don’t see why some people here are so offended by someone having a dissenting opinion. What’s wrong with that? I have not been offensive or slandered anyone. I also have not broken any rules nor will I. I thought this thread was to discuss the topic of the virus and give our opinions. If some people only want a cut and paste of the articles defending their opinions I have tons of them.
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Old 1 April 2020, 11:10 PM   #4709
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Another question:

Any info out there on how exercise and keeping yourself healthy helps?

As an asthmatic, Iím working harder to keep my lungs healthy. Iíve always exercised, but Iím now making a point to push my cardio higher to ensure Iím increasing lung capacity. I did hill runs yesterday for example.

And Iíve noticed that Iím using my inhaler less. Just a day or so, so far, but Iíll take whatever I can get.

Anyone posting exercise and healthy lifestyle to help combat getting severe symptoms? Iíd love to check out the data or any information on that.

I think itís telling that out of a ship full of healthy sailors, none of them yet have fallen ill with severe symptoms even while the virus is spreading through the ship.

Canít find anything about it though.
I think I read that diabetics fare poorly with the disease. In the US, type 2 diabetics usually get diabetes from poor nutrition, leading to obesity, meaning their respiratory system is strained just moving their big masses around.

So, itís probably a good idea to keep hearts and lungs strong (as well as general immunities).
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Old 1 April 2020, 11:12 PM   #4710
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Another question:

Any info out there on how exercise and keeping yourself healthy helps?

As an asthmatic, Iím working harder to keep my lungs healthy. Iíve always exercised, but Iím now making a point to push my cardio higher to ensure Iím increasing lung capacity. I did hill runs yesterday for example.

And Iíve noticed that Iím using my inhaler less. Just a day or so, so far, but Iíll take whatever I can get.

Anyone posting exercise and healthy lifestyle to help combat getting severe symptoms? Iíd love to check out the data or any information on that.

I think itís telling that out of a ship full of healthy sailors, none of them yet have fallen ill with severe symptoms even while the virus is spreading through the ship.

Canít find anything about it though.
Purely anecdotal Seth, but our daughter is asthmatic and our GP told us to keep her on her puffer twice daily, which is exactly what we are doing.

Be well my friend.
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