the Coronavirus outbreak thread

[erhein]

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

What is the TP situation in your locales?

I'm so confused by toilet paper math that I have no idea how much I have.

[Tha Baron]

Originally Posted by erhein

I'm so confused by toilet paper math that I have no idea how much I have.

They made a calculator to figure out when you'd run out. It was designed for the same people that thought plastic straws were going to end the world.

[superdog]

Originally Posted by andyxxx

I believe we are wasting our time self isolating and all we are doing is prolonging this crisis though it may save lives - may being the operative word once all are tallied.

At the rate of infection it would seem we will need to isolate for several months or until a vaccine is found – this duration is not possible.

Already, after a couple of weeks, economies are badly damaged – we simply cannot go on indefinitely.

We are crippling our businesses and economies and the subsequent death toll (other from the virus) will already be enormous.

(I can't see any reason why my opinion or adding this to the discussion should violate forum rules?)

I think your opinion is valid and worth discussion.

I’m like minded in a lot of ways.

[LandWatch]

Originally Posted by andyxxx

I believe we are wasting our time self isolating and all we are doing is prolonging this crisis though it may save lives - may being the operative word once all are tallied.

At the rate of infection it would seem we will need to isolate for several months or until a vaccine is found – this duration is not possible.

Already, after a couple of weeks, economies are badly damaged – we simply cannot go on indefinitely.

We are crippling our businesses and economies and the subsequent death toll (other from the virus) will already be enormous.

(I can't see any reason why my opinion or adding this to the discussion should violate forum rules?)

You may be right, but it would be a brave politician to proactively decide to go back to work and let it run it’s inevitable course.

The likelihood would be that many more people would die as the overwhelmed NHS could not cope. I think social acceptability and optics play a big part here as the impact would be immediate.

But, you’re right, the economic fallout will be significant ...

And, to a large extent I agree with you. I’m watching Sweden with interest ... as I’m sure other governments are!

[andyxxx]

Originally Posted by HighlandWatch

You may be right, but it would be a brave politician to proactively decide to go back to work and let it run it’s inevitable course.

The likelihood would be that many more people would die as the overwhelmed NHS could not cope. I think social acceptability and optics play a big part here as the impact would be immediate.

But, you’re right, the economic fallout will be significant ...

And, to a large extent I agree with you. I’m watching Sweden with interest ... as I’m sure other governments are!

Yes it will be a difficult decision – but I believe inevitably it will be made.

I fully understand the logic and flattening the curve but we are simply not getting infected quick enough to have this conclude within a few months using the self isolation method (Even if you take it that there a 10 or 20 times the known number actually infected.)

[LandWatch]

Originally Posted by andyxxx

Yes it will be a difficult decision – but I believe inevitably it will be made.

I fully understand the logic and flattening the curve but we are simply not getting infected quick enough to have this conclude within a few months using the self isolation method (Even if you take it that there a 10 or 20 times the known number actually infected.)

Agree, but I think at the moment, we’re in the minority! The economic impact of a long drawn out shut down would be too much to bear. Not to mention the longer term effect on people’s mental health.

I’m lucky, I live in a big house in the country, I retired early, my kids are teenagers able to look after themselves. I can only begin to imagine how hard it must be for city dwellers living in a flat, a couple of young kids, no job etc ...

[superstarmar]

Originally Posted by greggsiam

As for the 5G, a nice summary from a Redditor

I’m just curious, a question if I may .
If 5G is purely and wholly stable and used
for the sole purpose of our technological advancement .
Why are multiple companies creating protection
against 5G radiation and EMF bandwidths ?

[statsman]

So, now there are reports that the US test is giving 30% errors on the negative results.

It seems to me that the US CDC is really not doing well. They blew the first roll out of testing, and now are failing to oversee a good test from themselves and industry. I know everybody loves Dr. Fauci, but we need better from his agency.

[Letsgodiving]

I think we have to defer to the experts for the next month or so but at that point if we don't see a marked improvement in the curve that won't overwhelm the healthcare system some difficult decisions will need to be made by the people in power. Public opinion may very well turn at some point in order to allow the pols to make the difficult decisions that will eventually have to be made.

If we don't give the isolation model a good try you may have a revolt in the healthcare system if they feel they are just being sacrificed in favour of the economy which could be an even bigger issue.

[AzPaul]

Where I live, in Pima County in Arizona, the stats read this way:

Confirmed cases per 100,000 people ~ 23.2
Deaths per 100,000 people ~ 1.1

[erhein]

Originally Posted by andyxxx

I believe we are wasting our time self isolating and all we are doing is prolonging this crisis though it may save lives - may being the operative word once all are tallied.

At the rate of infection it would seem we will need to isolate for several months or until a vaccine is found – this duration is not possible.

Already, after a couple of weeks, economies are badly damaged – we simply cannot go on indefinitely.

We are crippling our businesses and economies and the subsequent death toll (other from the virus) will already be enormous.

(I can't see any reason why my opinion or adding this to the discussion should violate forum rules?)

Please don't take this the wrong way because you are certainly not alone in this position. But I wonder how many people would continue to feel this way if they somehow found out that theirs would be one of the lives sacrificed.

[Moggo]

Originally Posted by HighlandWatch

You may be right, but it would be a brave politician to proactively decide to go back to work and let it run it’s inevitable course.

The likelihood would be that many more people would die as the overwhelmed NHS could not cope. I think social acceptability and optics play a big part here as the impact would be immediate.

But, you’re right, the economic fallout will be significant ...

And, to a large extent I agree with you. I’m watching Sweden with interest ... as I’m sure other governments are!

I believe the reason we are doing it is primarily to ‘protect’ a decimated NHS who’s capacity was often at breaking point before this.

Without getting political they can’t afford to let the people see the true state the NHS was in so it’s a cover up exercise as much as anything.

Can you imagine on a world stage the ‘embarrassment’ of a collapsed health service and people dying in the streets?

It’s also become a muscle flexing exercise for countries, constant comparison of services, deaths, action plans etc. Certainly does not feel like the world is in this together.

I dread to think what happens if/when it hits some of the poorer African nations

(I apologise if any remarks break rules, please remove if they do).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moggo]

Originally Posted by Letsgodiving

I think we have to defer to the experts for the next month or so but at that point if we don't see a marked improvement in the curve that won't overwhelm the healthcare system some difficult decisions will need to be made by the people in power. Public opinion may very well turn at some point in order to allow the pols to make the difficult decisions that will eventually have to be made.

If we don't give the isolation model a good try you may have a revolt in the healthcare system if they feel they are just being sacrificed in favour of the economy which could be an even bigger issue.

I think one of the issues is we don’t really have any ‘experts’ in this. It’s so unprecedented that even the appointed experts are floundering.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LandWatch]

Originally Posted by Moggo

I believe the reason we are doing it is primarily to ‘protect’ a decimated NHS who’s capacity was often at breaking point before this.

Without getting political they can’t afford to let the people see the true state the NHS was in so it’s a cover up exercise as much as anything.

Can you imagine on a world stage the ‘embarrassment’ of a collapsed health service and people dying in the streets?

It’s also become a muscle flexing exercise for countries, constant comparison of services, deaths, action plans etc. Certainly does not feel like the world is in this together.

I dread to think what happens if/when it hits some of the poorer African nations

(I apologise if any remarks break rules, please remove if they do).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Africa doesn’t bear thinking about, I agree. Very sad to imagine...

But, on a positive NHS note, finishing the 4000 bed Nightingale Hospital, and the others planned, is an impressive achievement!

[BigBlue1]

Pretty soon if they keep this isolation crap up, people will revolt. It’s only natural to want to go out and live. It’s been 3 weeks and I’m anxious as hell. It’s crazy to tell a whole country to self quarantine and expect such. People are people and we are our own worst enemies. If this continues you will have utter chaos. I don’t want to sound insensitive at all so please allow me to apologize in advance if this is how I sound but as a society we must put in the best safety measures we can as a society that allows us to go on about are days. At this point it has spread well be on containment. We lost this battle and until it’s recognized the world will continue to cripple. It sounds like such a insensitive approach but one that could be reality.

The only way it works is if you..........................Oh wait, it doesn’t

Best wishes to all and humanity

HELP

[superstarmar]

Originally Posted by BigBlue1

Pretty soon if they keep this isolation crap up, people will revolt. It’s only natural to want to go out and live. It’s been 3 weeks and I’m anxious as hell. It’s crazy to tell a whole country to self quarantine and expect such. People are people and we are our own worst enemies. If this continues you will have utter chaos. I don’t want to sound insensitive at all so please allow me to apologize in advance if this is how I sound but as a society we must put in the best safety measures we can as a society that allows us to go on about are days. At this point it has spread well be on containment. We lost this battle and until it’s recognized the world will continue to cripple. It seems like such a insensitive take but one that could be reality.

The only way it works is if you..........................Oh wait, it doesn’t

Best wishes to all and humanity

HELP

Totally agree...
Sweden has taken another approach from
what I’ve heard . Everything is open...
Restaurants, bars , clubs , stores ... etc...
They say what will happen will happen whether
we isolate or not so let it roll !!!
If there’s anyone from Sweden please chime in to
confirm it this true or not...

[Fleetlord]

Originally Posted by erhein

Please don't take this the wrong way because you are certainly not alone in this position. But I wonder how many people would continue to feel this way if they somehow found out that theirs would be one of the lives sacrificed.

The other question I have is, lets say the policies are reversed and all the restrictions are lifted and we go right back to how life was in 2019, but the virus is still clear and present.

Would you go to a restaurant or bar? Would you go to a sporting event?

Would you go to Disneyland? Movies?

As the rate of infections rise due to the renewed mingling of people, would people be willing to go out and do whatever?

Would there come a point where people would organically decide that they aren't going to do those things out of FEAR, which would crash the economy anyway?

After 9/11, airline flights were resumed on 9/13, but people didn't travel out of organic fear. Hotels, restaurants, theme parks..etc all suffered. Layoffs happened. Economy went into a recession. Not because the government stopped people from doing things, people stopped themselves from doing things out of fear and uncertainty.

If the coronavirus gets "bad" enough to trigger that response, the economy will tank anyway...along with the healthcare system. If restrictions are lifted, it certainly will get worse. There are countless examples around the world of not having or ignoring restrictions in gatherings and the cases blow up from there. Do that everywhere and cases WILL RISE, which will generate FEAR and shut it all down again anyway.

[Moggo]

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

The other question I have is, lets say the policies are reversed and all the restrictions are lifted and we go right back to how life was in 2019, but the virus is still clear and present.

Would you go to a restaurant or bar? Would you go to a sporting event?

Would you go to Disneyland? Movies?

As the rate of infections rise due to the renewed mingling of people, would people be willing to go out and do whatever?

Would there come a point where people would organically decide that they aren't going to do those things out of FEAR, which would crash the economy anyway?

After 9/11, airline flights were resumed on 9/13, but people didn't travel out of organic fear. Hotels, restaurants, theme parks..etc all suffered. Layoffs happened. Economy went into a recession. Not because the government stopped people from doing things, people stopped themselves from doing things out of fear and uncertainty.

If the coronavirus gets "bad" enough to trigger that response, the economy will tank anyway...along with the healthcare system. If restrictions are lifted, it certainly will get worse. There are countless examples around the world of not having or ignoring restrictions in gatherings and the cases blow up from there. Do that everywhere and cases WILL RISE, which will generate FEAR and shut it all down again anyway.

Very good point, I think fear has now been instilled and the way back is not like flicking a switch.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[superdog]

Originally Posted by erhein

Please don't take this the wrong way because you are certainly not alone in this position. But I wonder how many people would continue to feel this way if they somehow found out that theirs would be one of the lives sacrificed.

personally, I would hate it.

but being in NJ, I have already experienced this. and I am asthmatic.

my father is also VERY much at risk.

my aunt is dealing with the virus now.

a few buddies have it.

and I am still of this same mindset. Even if it happens to me. which is of course very possible.

[andyxxx]

Originally Posted by erhein

Please don't take this the wrong way because you are certainly not alone in this position. But I wonder how many people would continue to feel this way if they somehow found out that theirs would be one of the lives sacrificed.

I am certainly prepared to take the remote gamble of dying from this virus and going back to work.

Interestingly, the several elderly people I have spoken to including my Dad, while self-isolating and taking the possibility of death seriously are not frightened.

Any susceptible people could and should be isolated in the best way possible when we go back to work.

[Fleetlord]

Originally Posted by Moggo

Very good point, I think fear has now been instilled and the way back is not like flicking a switch.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

9/11 set the precedent. People will stop their behaviors en masse out of good old fear, once something gets or is perceived to be bad enough.

The chances of another orchestrated terror attack were infinitesimal and the odds that you would get caught up in it, even less, but people freaked out and didn't go anywhere spending their money for enough time to cause a pretty nasty recession.

So, when the cases of COVID-19 skyrocket because....well that's what viruses do when they have plenty of hosts to infect, wouldn't the same thing happen? Maybe more so because the odds of catching this are greater than getting highjacked while going a trip to LA.

[Ferdelious]

Originally Posted by andyxxx

I am certainly prepared to take the remote gamble of dying from this virus and going back to work.

Interestingly, the several elderly people I have spoken to including my Dad, while self-isolating and taking the possibility of death seriously are not frightened.

Any susceptible people could and should be isolated in the best way possible when we go back to work.

I have the same approach. I'll be turning 40 this year and am in good health, also an ex-marathoner so I'm in good shape. I'll risk the 1% chance of dying to help reduce the effects of economic collapse that will come if we continue to quarantine ourselves.

[Star Ferry]

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

The other question I have is, lets say the policies are reversed and all the restrictions are lifted and we go right back to how life was in 2019, but the virus is still clear and present.

Would you go to a restaurant or bar? Would you go to a sporting event?

Would you go to Disneyland? Movies?
.

Personally I'd return to normal as soon as things open. I was in a movie theater on 3/14, crowded restaurant 3/15, airport 3/17 -- and then sick a few days later. There's a risk, and I paid a price. But when I get a chance to go out again, I'll take it. I would go to an NBA game next week if they were still playing. Lots of people, mostly younger, would probably join me.

[uscmatt99]

Originally Posted by Letsgodiving

I think we have to defer to the experts for the next month or so but at that point if we don't see a marked improvement in the curve that won't overwhelm the healthcare system some difficult decisions will need to be made by the people in power. Public opinion may very well turn at some point in order to allow the pols to make the difficult decisions that will eventually have to be made.

If we don't give the isolation model a good try you may have a revolt in the healthcare system if they feel they are just being sacrificed in favour of the economy which could be an even bigger issue.

There is a social contract at stake. Health care providers are risking their lives daily in an attempt to save as many lives as possible. When the public at large gives up their end of the contract in terms of social distancing, that's where a bulk of health care providers will throw in the towel and walk out. And that's not just those caring for COVID-19 patients. Hospitals cannot function without nurses, technologists, environmental services, physicians. This is a problem that was exacerbated by poor decision making and preparedness on the part of government and short-sighted business leaders who had their ears, and dumped in the laps of providers who are now being asked to risk their health and the health of their loved ones.

[andyxxx]

Originally Posted by Fleetlord

The other question I have is, lets say the policies are reversed and all the restrictions are lifted and we go right back to how life was in 2019, but the virus is still clear and present.

Would you go to a restaurant or bar? Would you go to a sporting event?

Would you go to Disneyland? Movies?

As the rate of infections rise due to the renewed mingling of people, would people be willing to go out and do whatever?

.

The virus will almost certainly still be present when we go back to work without a vaccine- which is one of the reasons I think we should go back now and save the economy.

I for one would carry on as normal (barring the fact many of the restaurants and bars will never re-open) and I think most of the population would, barring some people with health concerns and elderly.

[Blansky]

As had been stated many times on this thread, the reason for the quarantine is simply to let the medical community have time to prepare. Time to accumulate resources and time to answer some of the basic questions on the tendencies of this virus.

There is no doubt that we have to let the virus runs it's course throughout the population, but the quarantine is to let us prepare. I'm sure the death toll will be significant but until there is a vaccine all we can do is prepare.

Then we open the doors, and perhaps try to protect the most vulnerable, but nobody is going to want to stay quarantined for months on end, even those who are vulnerable. And our economic system will not allow it.

[daveathall]

Originally Posted by erhein

But I wonder how many people would continue to feel this way if they somehow found out that theirs would be one of the lives sacrificed.

If my relations were to grieve, I would hope that it was for me that they were grieving and no one else in my family. Sadly though, thats not how it works.

[Fleetlord]

Originally Posted by uscmatt99

There is a social contract at stake. Health care providers are risking their lives daily in an attempt to save as many lives as possible. When the public at large gives up their end of the contract in terms of social distancing, that's where a bulk of health care providers will throw in the towel and walk out. And that's not just those caring for COVID-19 patients. Hospitals cannot function without nurses, technologists, environmental services, physicians. This is a problem that was exacerbated by poor decision making and preparedness on the part of government and short-sighted business leaders who had their ears, and dumped in the laps of providers who are now being asked to risk their health and the health of their loved ones.

After all these conversations, this is really the terminus of all of it.

You can't expect the health care professionals to risk their lives, exposed to massive viral loads on a daily basis, while people do whatever they want to and exacerbate the problem, rather than assist in resolving it. It's ridiculous when you think about it.

[uscmatt99]

Originally Posted by Ferdelious

I have the same approach. I'll be turning 40 this year and am in good health, also an ex-marathoner so I'm in good shape. I'll risk the 1% chance of dying to help reduce the effects of economic collapse that will come if we continue to quarantine ourselves.

Would you still expect care to be provided by the health care system if you or your family members you were in contact with fell ill? Would you sign a contract that you will forego any healthcare needs that arise for you or family members until you could be confirmed COVID-19 negative and could be cared for without risk to your providers? What if you end up having a mild course of the disease and infect others at your workplace who were pressured to come back if restrictions were eased?

I don't mean to single you out It's just that we all need to think of the ramifications of our actions, and your post is a good jumping off point.

[Fleetlord]

Originally Posted by uscmatt99

Would you still expect care to be provided by the health care system if you or your family members you were in contact with fell ill? Would you sign a contract that you will forego any healthcare needs that arise for you or family members until you could be confirmed COVID-19 negative and could be cared for without risk to your providers? What if you end up having a mild course of the disease and infect others at your workplace who were pressured to come back if restrictions were eased?

I don't mean to single you out It's just that we all need to think of the ramifications of our actions, and your post is a good jumping off point.

I wonder if it would ever get to a point where health insurance companies ( along with Medicare) would just deny coverage of COVID-19 treatment(s) due to people not taking due care in avoiding contracting it? It would essentially be, "if you don't care, we don't care"...DENIED

If they did, I bet a lot of tunes would change...