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Old 13 June 2018, 07:36 PM   #1
Haywood_Milton
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Would-be 1665 DRSD in UK auction....

A would-be Rolex 1665 DRSD is being auctioned in the UK, sale tomorrow, with bids already up to £19,500 apparently (£24,765 with online bidder's commission) :

https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/a...lot-image-link

Look at those case and model numbers! Look at that dial!

A number that late, even if correct, would have neither a straight ROLEX case-back nor a DR dial anyway.

Over a week ago I started contacting the auction house. I have now sent messages through :

- their own website contact form
- their direct email address
- their Facebook page / direct message
- telephone

I understand that others have also alerted them. No response has been forthcoming and the sale continues...

H
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Old 13 June 2018, 07:41 PM   #2
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Hope nobody here is bidding
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Old 13 June 2018, 10:39 PM   #3
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Haywood, I posted a link to it on here last week.

I also have attempted to contact them, I've had no response either.
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Old 13 June 2018, 10:56 PM   #4
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Sorry s1im, I had not spotted your earlier thread.
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Old 13 June 2018, 10:58 PM   #5
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Terrible I will send an email also


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Old 14 June 2018, 01:47 AM   #6
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no problem Heywood, I'm glad you spotted it as well.
Unfortunately its not an auction I have dealt with before.
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Old 14 June 2018, 10:58 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post

I understand that others have also alerted them. No response has been forthcoming and the sale continues...

H
Yep, I tried to alert them via online chat as well, with no response. What's worse is that I believe they know it's not legit.
They refer to it as simply a "Gents automatic steel cased divers watch" in the listing title.
Plus, their sale estimate of 2,000 - 3,000 GBP is ridiculously low for a legitimate piece.
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Old 14 June 2018, 03:53 PM   #8
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Haywood, if I have some details perhaps I post it on Instagram.
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Old 14 June 2018, 04:23 PM   #9
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Haywood, if I have some details perhaps I post it on Instagram.
What details would you like?

H
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Old 14 June 2018, 08:55 PM   #10
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Now at £21,000 plus commission

.....and when I rang the auction house this morning to ask about the sale / why none of the timely messages about the watch had been responded to, I was simply told that "because of the amount of interest in the watch the sale will be going ahead....."

Crikey.
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*Comex:5513,5514,1665x2,16800x2,16600 *Mil sub:5517x2,5513x9,5512 *Submariner:6536/1x2,5508,5513 PCG u/line & double SWISS (America's Cup),5513 giltx2, 5513 m-firstx2,5513 gloss WGx2,1680 Red,1680 White Mk1 & Mk2 *Sea-Dweller:1665 DRSDx3,Great Whitex3 *GMT-Master:6542x2 (1 Bakelite),1675x8 (2 gilt), 16750 & SeaKing 116710LN *Explorer:1016x6 (1 gilt),5500x3,14270 Blackout, Orange 1655 x4 *Milgauss 1019x3 *Cosmo 6263 *RNCD DSSD 116660.
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Old 14 June 2018, 10:29 PM   #11
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SOLD for £21,000 plus commission.

This was after I called the auction house this morning, asking about the lack of response to my many contacts made in good time. They said that "because there is lots of interest in the item, the sale will go ahead."

Ouch.
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*Comex:5513,5514,1665x2,16800x2,16600 *Mil sub:5517x2,5513x9,5512 *Submariner:6536/1x2,5508,5513 PCG u/line & double SWISS (America's Cup),5513 giltx2, 5513 m-firstx2,5513 gloss WGx2,1680 Red,1680 White Mk1 & Mk2 *Sea-Dweller:1665 DRSDx3,Great Whitex3 *GMT-Master:6542x2 (1 Bakelite),1675x8 (2 gilt), 16750 & SeaKing 116710LN *Explorer:1016x6 (1 gilt),5500x3,14270 Blackout, Orange 1655 x4 *Milgauss 1019x3 *Cosmo 6263 *RNCD DSSD 116660.
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Old 14 June 2018, 10:54 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
What details would you like?

H
which auction house. I'll see if they list it in Instsgram and post a question. I'll screenshot it, in case they delete.
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Old 14 June 2018, 10:55 PM   #13
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oops too late.
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Old 15 June 2018, 06:30 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rootbeer7 View Post
which auction house. I'll see if they list it in Instsgram and post a question. I'll screenshot it, in case they delete.
The-saleroom.com. The link that H posted in the OP is still active and pics are still up.

Their IG is here: https://www.instagram.com/the_saleroom/
Their FB is here: https://www.facebook.com/saleroom/
Their customer service department can be reached here:
support@auctiontechnologygroup.com or 0203 725 5555.

Even thought the auction has ended, I am sure whoever purchased the watch would be interested to know the facts.
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Old 15 June 2018, 09:38 AM   #15
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On 4th June I completed the web contact form on the auction house's own website. Here is a screen grab of it, with the full text of my submission on the yellow "sticky" :



On 6th June I emailed this to the address published on their website :



On 9th June I wrote this "comment" on the company's Facebook page :



I also tweeted them that day :



On 12th June I wrote to the company through Facebook messenger :



I tried to speak with the valuation team / proprietor earlier this week but was told that no one was available.

About half an hour before the auction started (perhaps an hour and a half before the watch itself was offered), I called again and this time received an audience. The conversation being on speakerphone has been minuted thus :

HE : "Hello, can I help?"

HM :"Good morning, yes. A bit of advice if you could please. I've sent messages through your website contact page and through email, and through your Facebook message, and left a comment on your Facebook page about a lot in today's sale, the Rolex Double Red Sea-Dweller supposedly, which is INcorrect. I've not had a response to anything and the sale still seems to be going ahead. What could I do to try to save you and the potential bidders from going through with that transaction?"

HE : "Um...well...it's not for me to comment."

HM : "Then whom could I speak to, because I've sent messages through all the correct media - your website contact page, email, Facebook page, even Twitter and not had a response to anything, which is unusual."

HE : "As you may be aware we've had a huge amount of interest, um, and as a consequence of that, um, there's a lot of people ready to press the button."

HM : "But if the item is incorrect - and I sent through my credentials for..."

HE : "Well have you...Look, we're just about to start the sale. It's not for me to say. It's not my business..."

HM : "Well that's why I sent it, er, days ago, I think it was the 4th, 5th and 8th were the dates of those early correspondences...er...if it goes ahead the publicity and so on that would arise from it is going to be horrific, particularly when it's on record that all those contacts have been made. I invited correspondence. I gave my credentials at the time. I sit on two of the trade bodies of the jewellery industry..."

HE : "It's up to Mr. Humbert to respond to you if you feel so... I can't speak to you. It's not my business. I'm aware of your interest but, er...we're about to start the sale so it will go ahead, the watch will be offered so that's all I can tell you at this stage."

HM : "Ok, so my messages were received, you've confirmed that much."

HE : "I believe so, yeah."

HM : "Thankyou very much. Ok. Bye."
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*Comex:5513,5514,1665x2,16800x2,16600 *Mil sub:5517x2,5513x9,5512 *Submariner:6536/1x2,5508,5513 PCG u/line & double SWISS (America's Cup),5513 giltx2, 5513 m-firstx2,5513 gloss WGx2,1680 Red,1680 White Mk1 & Mk2 *Sea-Dweller:1665 DRSDx3,Great Whitex3 *GMT-Master:6542x2 (1 Bakelite),1675x8 (2 gilt), 16750 & SeaKing 116710LN *Explorer:1016x6 (1 gilt),5500x3,14270 Blackout, Orange 1655 x4 *Milgauss 1019x3 *Cosmo 6263 *RNCD DSSD 116660.
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Old 15 June 2018, 10:41 AM   #16
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Wow.

I guess contacting the authorities (and perhaps Rolex as well?), and see if they reply to THEIR enquiries.
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Old 16 June 2018, 06:16 AM   #17
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Why was my post deleted !??
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Old 16 June 2018, 08:15 PM   #18
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it didn't, there is just 3 threads about this watch, and you commented on the other!
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Old 16 June 2018, 10:30 PM   #19
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Doh! Long week !!!
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Old 5 July 2018, 11:01 PM   #20
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It has been claimed that the buyer of this watch had read the comments about it on a watch forum, but still chose to proceed with the purchase. Members may find this hard to believe, but it is possible.

Even if he did, I don't believe it changes the position.

May I thus extend the invitation here (as I will elsewhere) for him either to engage with the forum or to message me directly (with his identity protected, if desired). My real name is Haywood Milton and I may be found quite easily in the UK using Google.

H
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Old 7 July 2018, 04:54 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
It has been claimed that the buyer of this watch had read the comments about it on a watch forum, but still chose to proceed with the purchase.
If that information came from the auction house, I'd take it with a boulder of salt. Even if it were true, they knew that the watch was not legitimate from the start, and are complicit in fraud in my eyes.
Just look at the careful and deliberate wording of the listing as to not directly call it a "Rolex Sea Dweller" but a "Gents automatic steel cased divers watch" instead.
Further, they were told that the watch was not a legitmate piece by both you and I (and probably others), and they chose to do nothing and let the auction run.
I also noticed that they withheld the final hammer price. Where you would normally see it, it states "Auctioneer has chosen not to publish the price of this lot".
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Old 7 July 2018, 09:54 PM   #22
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I think their normal practice may be not to reveal the sale price on the online bidding platform, a choice each auctioneer may take and not anything in itself necessarily sinister.

It seems to be a matter of record that the watch sold for £21,000 plus commission which means the winning bidder would have actually paid over £26,000 for it.

Whether the bidder wishes to return it, keep it or flush it down the loo, and whether he was aware of what he was buying or not, makes no difference.

There seems to be much further for this to run.

H
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*Comex:5513,5514,1665x2,16800x2,16600 *Mil sub:5517x2,5513x9,5512 *Submariner:6536/1x2,5508,5513 PCG u/line & double SWISS (America's Cup),5513 giltx2, 5513 m-firstx2,5513 gloss WGx2,1680 Red,1680 White Mk1 & Mk2 *Sea-Dweller:1665 DRSDx3,Great Whitex3 *GMT-Master:6542x2 (1 Bakelite),1675x8 (2 gilt), 16750 & SeaKing 116710LN *Explorer:1016x6 (1 gilt),5500x3,14270 Blackout, Orange 1655 x4 *Milgauss 1019x3 *Cosmo 6263 *RNCD DSSD 116660.
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Old 10 July 2018, 12:44 AM   #23
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I made similar contact with them prior to the auction (though not quite to the extent of Haywood)
its a strange reaction from the auction house,
an auction house I had had previous dealings with sold what they thought was a omega chronograph, it was the day of the auction and I saw it online, and it was fake, it sold for a good price, I let the auction house know, and they spoke to the buyer, and he returned the watch the same day, both auction house and buyer were happy (not sure about the seller)
tbh, from this auction houses reaction, I won't be getting anything from them.
Not sure if there is somewhere to complain to the-saleroom?
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Old 10 July 2018, 07:35 PM   #24
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Quote:
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I made similar contact with them prior to the auction (though not quite to the extent of Haywood)
its a strange reaction from the auction house,
an auction house I had had previous dealings with sold what they thought was a omega chronograph, it was the day of the auction and I saw it online, and it was fake, it sold for a good price, I let the auction house know, and they spoke to the buyer, and he returned the watch the same day, both auction house and buyer were happy (not sure about the seller)
tbh, from this auction houses reaction, I won't be getting anything from them.
Not sure if there is somewhere to complain to the-saleroom?
It is established that Humbert Ellis received a number of clear warnings about the watch; good on you for making the effort. It is equally clear that they consciously decided to continue with the sale and why

I understand that the company behind thesaleroom was made aware of this at the highest level immediately after the sale. I am happy they their view of it is what it should be. The matter is on-going.....as is my involvement to see that it remains so!
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*Comex:5513,5514,1665x2,16800x2,16600 *Mil sub:5517x2,5513x9,5512 *Submariner:6536/1x2,5508,5513 PCG u/line & double SWISS (America's Cup),5513 giltx2, 5513 m-firstx2,5513 gloss WGx2,1680 Red,1680 White Mk1 & Mk2 *Sea-Dweller:1665 DRSDx3,Great Whitex3 *GMT-Master:6542x2 (1 Bakelite),1675x8 (2 gilt), 16750 & SeaKing 116710LN *Explorer:1016x6 (1 gilt),5500x3,14270 Blackout, Orange 1655 x4 *Milgauss 1019x3 *Cosmo 6263 *RNCD DSSD 116660.
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Old 10 July 2018, 10:34 PM   #25
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Haywood, tried to send you a pm and your box is full, regarding both this watch and another thing.
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Old 10 July 2018, 10:59 PM   #26
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Quote:
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Haywood, tried to send you a pm and your box is full, regarding both this watch and another thing.
There's a little room now if you're quick

I almost prefer to leave it full, as you should see the enquiries I get...!
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*Comex:5513,5514,1665x2,16800x2,16600 *Mil sub:5517x2,5513x9,5512 *Submariner:6536/1x2,5508,5513 PCG u/line & double SWISS (America's Cup),5513 giltx2, 5513 m-firstx2,5513 gloss WGx2,1680 Red,1680 White Mk1 & Mk2 *Sea-Dweller:1665 DRSDx3,Great Whitex3 *GMT-Master:6542x2 (1 Bakelite),1675x8 (2 gilt), 16750 & SeaKing 116710LN *Explorer:1016x6 (1 gilt),5500x3,14270 Blackout, Orange 1655 x4 *Milgauss 1019x3 *Cosmo 6263 *RNCD DSSD 116660.
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Old 4 September 2018, 12:23 AM   #27
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I have been keeping up the pressure on Humbert & Ellis.

I left a bad review on their Google listing last week.

While there had otherwise been no reviews for months, immediately after I posted my stinging comments about the faked up DRSD a "Victoria Ivanova" posted this five star recommendation:

"I bought the Rolex watch of my partners dreams for him in a recent auction. It has now been fully restored and I think is now more important to him than I am! Everyone at Humbert and Ellis were so mega helpful, a truly great auction house!"

What's that I'm smelling?

In the last 24 hours the situation has become even more interesting.

Overnight, a chap using the name "David Worrow" tried to put two shocking reviews of me or my businesses online. The first was under www.miltonsdiamonds.com, referring to me as its boss and saying that I was an "axxxhole of biblical proportions." The latter is arguable, but the former is not --- that's not one of my websites! His second review was against one of my businesses' Google listings, as follows:



We do not appear to have any record of Mr. Worrow having done business at that shop.

However, look at the name of this chap, blowing smoke up Humbert & Ellis nine months ago:



The same David Worrow? Yes, according to Google.

Who could question any of the reviews of Humbert Ellis? I am sure that he is no more connected than any of the reviewers......he says, eyes drifting to the name of the chap at the bottom here...



So while no-one from Humbert & Ellis seems to wish to engage with my communications about the bad watch they sold, one of their champions wishes to make up fake reviews of my businesses and me?

Then, further revelation.....should we be surprised if both Jonathan Humbert and Victoria Ivanova were listed among the friends of a David Morrow on Facebook? (screen-grabs illustrated on another forum)?

Since they were posted on the other forum, has Jonathan Humbert's personal entry been deleted from Facebook?

Is there something wotten in Whittlebury?

This nonsense does nothing to diminish my intention to keep working on the case...
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*Comex:5513,5514,1665x2,16800x2,16600 *Mil sub:5517x2,5513x9,5512 *Submariner:6536/1x2,5508,5513 PCG u/line & double SWISS (America's Cup),5513 giltx2, 5513 m-firstx2,5513 gloss WGx2,1680 Red,1680 White Mk1 & Mk2 *Sea-Dweller:1665 DRSDx3,Great Whitex3 *GMT-Master:6542x2 (1 Bakelite),1675x8 (2 gilt), 16750 & SeaKing 116710LN *Explorer:1016x6 (1 gilt),5500x3,14270 Blackout, Orange 1655 x4 *Milgauss 1019x3 *Cosmo 6263 *RNCD DSSD 116660.
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Old 4 September 2018, 04:55 AM   #28
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Haywood, this case proves both positive and negative sides of the new world and social media. I recently had to watch a vile attack against my business by a poster and her friends. All sorts of allegations were posted. I responded with dignity asking for time and a private conversation. Eventually she disappeared. Your reputation is unquestionable to those that know.
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Old 4 September 2018, 09:04 PM   #29
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Thanks for that.

A little more digging this morning shows Facebook friendships link Jonathan Humbert, David Worrow, Victoria Ivanova and Shelley Scribbins.

Five star Google reviews of Humbert Ellis have been submitted by people with the names Jonathan Humbert, David Worrow, Victoria Ivanova and Shelley Scribbins.

Go figure.
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Old 5 September 2018, 12:49 AM   #30
DaytonaSubmariner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
Thanks for that.

A little more digging this morning shows Facebook friendships link Jonathan Humbert, David Worrow, Victoria Ivanova and Shelley Scribbins.

Five star Google reviews of Humbert Ellis have been submitted by people with the names Jonathan Humbert, David Worrow, Victoria Ivanova and Shelley Scribbins.

Go figure.
It should NEVER have to come to this. That you have to be a detective to figure out who's covering for who.

Any legitimate business would have thanked all of you for bringing this to their attention prior to the sale. Big auction houses pull high profile items all the time if there is a question about the history or legitimacy all the time, even at the last minute. Their reputation is at risk if they put something up that isn't exactly what they say it is.
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