The Rolex Forums   The Rolex Watch

ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX


Go Back   Rolex Forums - Rolex Watch Forum > Rolex & Tudor Watch Topics > Rolex WatchTech

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 19 December 2017, 07:03 PM   #1
RolexWombat
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: US
Watch: Depends on the day
Posts: 71
Almost +60s/day when worn, but less than +1s/day when not worn

So I bought this (used 2 years old) 114060 and I love everything about it... except it's time keeping ability. But the behavior is a bit strange and I was hoping maybe someone here could explain/guess what is happening.

If I measure the watch (using watch tracker app measuring once or twice a day over a period of 3 to 5 days each time, each day I wind the watch completely and then leave it in it's box in whatever position I'm measuring unless when I pick it up to measure and wind it) in each position it all looks good and within COSC -2/+3.

Now if I wear the watch on my wrist it then runs at almost +60s/day (!) during the day while I wear it, and back again to being around 1s/day during the night when it's just in whatever position I leave it in the drawer.

Obviously going to have to send it to the RSC (should still be under warranty) but I'd really like to understand what could cause this? Could it be that the previous owner banged it and somehow broke it and that the RSC will tell me it's not covered by the warranty??

Any ideas?
RolexWombat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19 December 2017, 07:06 PM   #2
Andad
2024 Pledge Member
 
Andad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Real Name: Eddie
Location: Australia
Watch: A few.
Posts: 36,692
What did the RSC say?

They are your only resource for a warranty fix after evaluation of the problem and are usually pretty good under this timeline.
__________________
E

Andad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 December 2017, 01:11 PM   #3
NIHO
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 249
Overbanking

Hi,
I had this exact problem on an DJ watch I bought for my father as a gift. It went back and forth to the RSC (2 different ones) 3 times over 6 months. They finally had an expert from Geneva assess it and eventually they replaced the entire movement. The problem is overbanking. The mainspring gets overwound by the rotor and this causes too much power to be delivered to the gear-train. This only happens when the watch is worn, as it cannot be overwound if not worn. Overbanking is not supposed to happen but sometimes it does. One RSC watchmaker told me that they often replace the mainspring with a "weaker spring" to reduce overbanking. But obviously the best fix is to repair the movement. For reasons that I cannot totally understand, Rolex was not able to repair it even though they figured out the problem.
NIHO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24 December 2017, 03:31 AM   #4
unreformed66
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: United States
Posts: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by NIHO View Post
Hi,
I had this exact problem on an DJ watch I bought for my father as a gift. It went back and forth to the RSC (2 different ones) 3 times over 6 months. They finally had an expert from Geneva assess it and eventually they replaced the entire movement. The problem is overbanking. The mainspring gets overwound by the rotor and this causes too much power to be delivered to the gear-train. This only happens when the watch is worn, as it cannot be overwound if not worn. Overbanking is not supposed to happen but sometimes it does. One RSC watchmaker told me that they often replace the mainspring with a "weaker spring" to reduce overbanking. But obviously the best fix is to repair the movement. For reasons that I cannot totally understand, Rolex was not able to repair it even though they figured out the problem.
I'm sure that Rolex COULD have repaired it with the aforementioned weaker mainspring. My bet it that they decided to do a total movement replacement to make sure that everything in the watch is "standard" so that nobody has to figure out anything at later services and to make sure you were happy with the watch. If the movement is overbanking with the standard strength mainspring it has an inherent problem anyway and rather than spend their time figuring out which parts were causing the problem they may have just replaced it to save time as well.
unreformed66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31 January 2018, 10:36 PM   #5
Chubbador
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: UK
Posts: 18
Any update from OP? Sounds like 'overbanking' based on my own experience. RSC in Kent were excellent my case and my watch came back running consistently at -3s per day which is fine by me. No idea what they did internally though, the letter that came back with the watch merely said 'movement correction'.
Chubbador is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 February 2018, 12:04 PM   #6
Vicc
"TRF" Member
 
Vicc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Real Name: Viktor
Location: New York
Watch: Broad Arrow
Posts: 98
Sounds like your watch is rebanking. Basically when you wear the watch and the autowinding keeps the mainspring at full power, its giving the balance an extra push which in return makes faster turns, which results in the watch running fast. It might've been serviced incorrectly or its due for service.
Vicc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1 February 2018, 01:00 PM   #7
Valenciawatchrepair
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Ellijay, GA
Posts: 1,504
Probably the mainspring is getting stuck and not free spinning in the barrel when fully wound as it should. Unless someone did in fact put in the wrong mainspring.
Valenciawatchrepair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10 February 2018, 09:01 PM   #8
RolexWombat
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: US
Watch: Depends on the day
Posts: 71
Watch now (finally) at RSC, after about a week got a call back that they could not see a problem and were asking if they could perform a 'wrist test', to which I said "yes please!" :) because it only happens when the watch is worn and fully wound.

Don't worry I will keep you guys updated :)
RolexWombat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 March 2018, 07:28 PM   #9
RolexWombat
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: US
Watch: Depends on the day
Posts: 71
So here's the update I promised:

So, 5 weeks after receiving the watch, and almost a month about asking me the permission to do a wrist test the RSC just sent the watch back to me. The letter that came back with the watch only says "Service compliments of Rolex" and the 'Service Operations executed' only lists 'Check movement'.

At first I was a bit miffed, but the first thing I did was wear the watch over a few days (like I did when I noticed the accuracy problem) and meticulously measure it's accuracy at the same time, and guess what: the watch seems to be fixed.

Over the last 4 days of wearing the watch like I did before (active lifestyle due to being a very hands-on dad of a 10 months old and a 3 year old, watch worn around 16h a day), the best fit rate is 1.6 s/day (which I'm happy with and within the expected 'superlative chronometer' range), compared to 25 to 35 s/day before...

So they must have done something to it, because I don't think the watch fixed itself simply by being shipped USPS back and forth between San Francisco and Dallas... maybe something very simple to do with the mainspring like some of you suggested that they would not qualify as 'servicing the movement'? But what exactly, they are not telling.

I know they did do the wrist test because the glide lock position was changed for someone with much smaller wrists than me. And (but this may be subjective) it seems to me the feeling you get through the crown when winding the watch seems to be different than before.

In any case, I'm happy with the accuracy of the watch now, I'll time it again in all positions to see if I can even improve a little bit on that rate by changing the resting position when I take it of at night (for those 4 days I just let it rest dial up) but less than 2 s/day is absolutely nothing to complain about IMHO.

I know the problem was there before and it really looks like it's not happening anymore so I'm convinced they did something, but what exactly remains unknown.. (my wife says they are probably ashamed and/or don't want to admit there was something broken with the watch and that's why they only wrote down 'check movement' :)).

I can now finally enjoy wearing this new (to me) watch without having to re-set the time every 1 or 2 days or hacking the watch for about 30 seconds every night like I did for the first month and a half I had it, which is good because I really like it very much but this inaccuracy problem was really ruining the watch for me.
RolexWombat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5 April 2018, 06:12 AM   #10
RolexWombat
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: US
Watch: Depends on the day
Posts: 71
Final update on this: as I expected simply resting the watch on its side rather than flat at night slows it down enough to regulate it pretty well.

Tried different positions (over a few days each time) and 3H (i.e. crown up) ended up being the best compromise which averages it out to around +0.6s/day . Individual measured rates were very consistently similar over multiple days of normal wear so I'm pretty confident that this average rate would hold for quite a long time.

Needless I'm quite happy now with the watch's 'real life' accuracy (which IMHO in the end is the only kind of accuracy that should matter for a mechanical watch).

For info to others interested in measuring it, the best way I have found to measure this 'real life accuracy' is using the WatchTracker app on my phone and each day adding one data point when I start wearing the watch in the morning and a second one when I take it off at night (that way I get an idea of the 'on wrist' rate vs the 'resting' rate). Because with this app you do the measurement 'by hand' you know each individual measurement could actually be a few tenth off either way (though the sub with it's long seconds hand and nice hour markers allows you to be actually pretty precise with the measurement), so you need to measure at least a few days (in my case at least 3 days) and then look at the 'best fit rate' calculated by the application. Besides averaging out the 'accuracy' of you tapping on the phone's screen to make the measurement, another reason to measure at least 3 days is to also average out your level of daytime activity (and the amount of time the watch is on your wrist each day). Very cool and useful little application and IMHO totally worth the $5 it costs.
RolexWombat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5 April 2018, 07:09 PM   #11
justdate
"TRF" Member
 
justdate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Real Name: RJ
Location: UK Coast
Watch: PP/AP/Rolex
Posts: 1,323
Hmm strange, they would normally tell you exactly what they've done!
justdate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5 April 2018, 07:16 PM   #12
MonBK
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kingstown
Posts: 58,281
Perhaps you can call them and ask what they did?
MonBK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2 May 2018, 05:57 AM   #13
saskmh
"TRF" Member
 
saskmh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,027
Quote:
Originally Posted by justdate View Post
Hmm strange, they would normally tell you exactly what they've done!
I sent a watch in for an issue where the stem was getting stuck between positions. It was under service warranty. RSC couldn't fix it and sent it to Rolex Canada. I got he watch back a couple of months later as the OP did...with no explanation of what was done, no record, no written confirmation that the watch was serviced. Just a "compliments of Rolex"

My local RSC who handled the case for me verbally confirmed that Rolex Canada did complete a full servicing of the movement.

It has been working perfectly since.
__________________
RCN (Canadian) Tudor Milsub database co-manager
saskmh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4 May 2018, 05:48 PM   #14
RolexWombat
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: US
Watch: Depends on the day
Posts: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonBK View Post
Perhaps you can call them and ask what they did?


I sent an Email to ask, but no answer...
RolexWombat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15 May 2018, 09:20 PM   #15
Vicc
"TRF" Member
 
Vicc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Real Name: Viktor
Location: New York
Watch: Broad Arrow
Posts: 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by justdate View Post
Hmm strange, they would normally tell you exactly what they've done!
It would be a bit embarrassing to write "barrel lubrication" on an invoice.
Vicc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15 May 2018, 09:27 PM   #16
brandrea
2024 Pledge Member
 
brandrea's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Real Name: Brian (TBone)
Location: canada
Watch: es make me smile
Posts: 73,095
I’d be curious to hear comments from Bas or Vanessa on this.
brandrea is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16 May 2018, 01:15 AM   #17
SearChart
TechXpert
 
SearChart's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Earth
Posts: 23,443
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandrea View Post
I’d be curious to hear comments from Bas or Vanessa on this.
Would have to see and test myself. I'd check all positions at fully wound and after 24hrs.
If the results are 'off' I'd try a new barrel & mainspring, if the problem still persists I'd replace the pallet fork.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by GB-man View Post
Rolex uses rare elves to polish the platinum. They have a union deal and make like $90 per hour and get time and half on weekends.
SearChart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20 June 2018, 06:27 PM   #18
RolexWombat
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: US
Watch: Depends on the day
Posts: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by SearChart View Post
Would have to see and test myself. I'd check all positions at fully wound and after 24hrs.

If the results are 'off' I'd try a new barrel & mainspring, if the problem still persists I'd replace the pallet fork.


Which is what I did. If I just fully wound the watch and just left it in any position for 24h then the accuracy was acceptable, however if I fully wound the watch then wear it for the day (fairly active lifestyle and long days) then at the end of the day the watch would be almost +30s.

So this would happen only when the watch is fully wound _and_ I wear it (meaning it’s being ‘overwound’). So main spring or barrel related issue would be the my first guess.
RolexWombat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20 June 2018, 06:39 PM   #19
RolexWombat
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: US
Watch: Depends on the day
Posts: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicc View Post
It would be a bit embarrassing to write "barrel lubrication" on an invoice.

I bought the watch from an individual and it’s quite possible (even likely) that the watch did spend most of its life (couple of years or more) static in a vault before I bought it, could that cause the barrel grease to “go bad”? Could also be the problem was there from the start and they never noticed because you needed to wear the watch assiduously every day all day long for it to happen (and they probably were not as anal as I am about the accuracy:)).

Please forget my very limited and amateur knowledge but what would happen exactly if the lubrication of the barrel becomes insufficient? If the main spring gets “overwound” and gives more force than it is supposed to to the balance wheel through the escapement does it means the impulse is too strong and the amplitude gets too large? If the amplitude is larger than it should then wouldn’t that make the watch slower?
RolexWombat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24 June 2018, 09:05 AM   #20
Vicc
"TRF" Member
 
Vicc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Real Name: Viktor
Location: New York
Watch: Broad Arrow
Posts: 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolexWombat View Post
I bought the watch from an individual and it’s quite possible (even likely) that the watch did spend most of its life (couple of years or more) static in a vault before I bought it, could that cause the barrel grease to “go bad”? Could also be the problem was there from the start and they never noticed because you needed to wear the watch assiduously every day all day long for it to happen (and they probably were not as anal as I am about the accuracy:)).

Please forget my very limited and amateur knowledge but what would happen exactly if the lubrication of the barrel becomes insufficient? If the main spring gets “overwound” and gives more force than it is supposed to to the balance wheel through the escapement does it means the impulse is too strong and the amplitude gets too large? If the amplitude is larger than it should then wouldn’t that make the watch slower?
It is a more likely scenario that the individual you bought the watch from had it serviced and it wasn't lubricated correctly. But with watches anything is possible.
Vicc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24 June 2018, 09:38 AM   #21
fskywalker
2024 Pledge Member
 
fskywalker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Real Name: Francisco
Location: San Juan, PR
Watch: Is Ticking !
Posts: 24,521
Quote:
Originally Posted by RolexWombat View Post
Final update on this: as I expected simply resting the watch on its side rather than flat at night slows it down enough to regulate it pretty well.



Tried different positions (over a few days each time) and 3H (i.e. crown up) ended up being the best compromise which averages it out to around +0.6s/day . Individual measured rates were very consistently similar over multiple days of normal wear so I'm pretty confident that this average rate would hold for quite a long time.



Needless I'm quite happy now with the watch's 'real life' accuracy (which IMHO in the end is the only kind of accuracy that should matter for a mechanical watch).



For info to others interested in measuring it, the best way I have found to measure this 'real life accuracy' is using the WatchTracker app on my phone and each day adding one data point when I start wearing the watch in the morning and a second one when I take it off at night (that way I get an idea of the 'on wrist' rate vs the 'resting' rate). Because with this app you do the measurement 'by hand' you know each individual measurement could actually be a few tenth off either way (though the sub with it's long seconds hand and nice hour markers allows you to be actually pretty precise with the measurement), so you need to measure at least a few days (in my case at least 3 days) and then look at the 'best fit rate' calculated by the application. Besides averaging out the 'accuracy' of you tapping on the phone's screen to make the measurement, another reason to measure at least 3 days is to also average out your level of daytime activity (and the amount of time the watch is on your wrist each day). Very cool and useful little application and IMHO totally worth the $5 it costs.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
__________________
Francisco
♛ 16610 / 116264
Ω 168.022 / 2535.80.00 / 2230.50.00
Zenith 02.470.405
Henry Archer Eclipse

2FA security enabled
fskywalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26 July 2018, 11:31 PM   #22
Thuilln
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Real Name: Nick
Location: YUL
Watch: 16570
Posts: 1,936
I had a similar issue with a brand new Explorer three years ago. They fixed it without any kind of explanation. My guess was they somehow f___ed up initially and it left the factory with this serious flaw.
That was my first experience with Rolex and I was less than impressed, to say the least.
After their fix, it runs perfectly. Something was wrong in the movement, but they wouldn't let me know what.
__________________
Nick

_________________________________________
14060M - 114200 - 114270 - 214270 - 16710BLRO - 16570 - 3570.50 - Cartier Tank Solo - Cartier Tank Française ‘Yearling’ - CWC Navy Diver
Thuilln is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2018, 02:39 PM   #23
ROLLiWORKS
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Real Name: Michael H
Posts: 964
Magnetism is very common.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
ROLLiWORKS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27 July 2018, 08:25 PM   #24
Thuilln
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Real Name: Nick
Location: YUL
Watch: 16570
Posts: 1,936
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROLLiWORKS View Post
Magnetism is very common.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I fear it has nothing to do with magnetism. When unworn mine was running at around 1 spd.
__________________
Nick

_________________________________________
14060M - 114200 - 114270 - 214270 - 16710BLRO - 16570 - 3570.50 - Cartier Tank Solo - Cartier Tank Française ‘Yearling’ - CWC Navy Diver
Thuilln is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30 July 2018, 01:31 AM   #25
1watchmaker
"TRF" Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: louisiana
Posts: 1
I think it could be a hairspring problem, if it was serviced since leaving the factory, the hairspring could be bent due to watchmaker error causing the coils to bump against each other in certain positions, this would shorten the arc and cause the watch to gain excessively in those positions. It could be something to have checked by someone who is knowledgeable and trained in a school, not a hobbyst with casual training, as hairspring work on a Rolex requires extreme expertise.
1watchmaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Takuya Watches

Bobs Watches

My Watch LLC

OCWatches

DavidSW Watches

Coronet


*Banners Of The Month*
This space is provided to horological resources.





Copyright ©2004-2024, The Rolex Forums. All Rights Reserved.

ROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEXROLEX

Rolex is a registered trademark of ROLEX USA. The Rolex Forums is not affiliated with ROLEX USA in any way.