Baseball's Sign Stealing Problem

[Nadi090]

Originally Posted by superdog

If you are not cheating, you are not trying.

Really?
So what's the point of training to compete if you'll cheat or be cheated...

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[AzPaul]

Think the reason we're not seeing any discipline or suspensions being handed out to the players involved is that it would unquestionably set off a fight with the Players Association, and frankly, it's a fight the owners don't want. After all, they still need to sell tickets to their games and they do that by marketing the players to the fans. They can afford to sacrifice a manager or two to this scandal, but labeling dozens of players as 'cheaters' isn't going to serve their interests. Not now, nor in the long run.

[enjoythemusic]

IMHO if you're going to signal and the general public can see it then it's all fair game. It makes no sense to me that if you're signalling in a public space then somehow it is 'illegal' to decipher said signal and communicate that to the player / batter.

Formula 1 shut down encrypted radio so everyone can hear pit-to-driver communication and F1 is doing quite nicely. Of course when it comes to baseball there's no such thing as bad PR. Maybe the league needs more PR due to MLB attendance was 68,494,752, down 1.62% for 2019, following a 4% drop for the 2018 season.

Haven't watched a baseball game in many years, or attended since i was a kid back in the 1970s when Hank AAron was all the rage. Many teams do spring training near me and have never attended any of those games either. Perhaps it is time baseball moves into the modern era?

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by AzPaul

Think the reason we're not seeing any discipline or suspensions being handed out to the players involved is that it would unquestionably set off a fight with the Players Association, and frankly, it's a fight the owners don't want. After all, they still need to sell tickets to their games and they do that by marketing the players to the fans. They can afford to sacrifice a manager or two to this scandal, but labeling dozens of players as 'cheaters' isn't going to serve their interests. Not now, nor in the long run.

100% this. Manfred avoided dealing with the Players Association and giving Crane a proper punishment.
He came down hard on sacrificial lambs.

[Blansky]

The failed attempt at dealing with this is pretty amazing when you consider that CHEATING is one of the main issues in sports that any game does not want out there in any form.

The severity of the Pete Rose gambling controversy and how the league dealt with it, as it pertained to the sanctity of game outcomes, you would think that this type of cheating would be more of an issue here than how it was dealt with.

Obviously the Rose thing and this is different but it still boils down to how legit is the final score in any game and was it within the rules.

[dddrees]

Biggest cheater WINS and it's a race to the bottom but they sure do get their money. I guess maybe I'm just or was to naïve because I used to believe in sportsmanship when growing up in the sixties and seventies. I was a kid and I believed in excellence and being the best. Work hard and do your best and you could be. Not who was the most corrupt and could cheat the game the most. Granted there was the spitball and a few known pitchers for that but the level they have taken all of the scams and all of the various forms of PEDs and everything just sickens me.

Personally I've been over what they now call sports for a little over a decade now.

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by Nadi090

Really?
So what's the point of training to compete if you'll cheat or be cheated...

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It’s an expression. I HIGHLY doubt he’s condoning it.

I was a professional cyclist...how do you think I felt?

[dddrees]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

I find it especially ironic that Alex Cora so often seemed to be so vocally self-righteous...while cheating to the extent that he was. At the end of last season, he even publicly called out an opposing player for not playing the game "the right way."

Really, there is a long list of hypocrites when it comes to this kind of thing. Nothing new here.

[dddrees]

I think people forget that when it came to PEDs it was something that was known long before it became public. It served the game at the time. Popularity was down but on the rise due those outstanding superman like acts of McGwire, Sosa and others.

This and other sports serve one purpose and one purpose alone and that is to make money.

If more people stopped watching maybe just maybe they would get their house in order.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by dddrees

Really, there is a long list of hypocrites when it comes to this kind of thing. Nothing new here.

True; I should stop being surprised.

[dddrees]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

True; I should stop being surprised.

Way too often the people who protest the loudest are sometimes the most guilty.

[Blansky]

I'm kind of a fan of the drug Olympics.

Use what you want and let's see what you can do.

Oh wait, the Soviets/Russians already did that.

But cheating on the rules and cheating with drugs are kind of 2 different things that are addressed differently.

The funny one was when Bond's hat size increased. "Yeah, he's been working out a lot".

[uscmatt99]

I think the World Series titles should be stripped for both the Astros and Red Sox. Part of the essence of the game is the mental chess match between the pitcher and hitter, so I'm not a fan of going in the direction of making sign stealing acceptable across the board. It cheapens the game. I would like to see enactment of a policy for suspending a player or group of players engaged in this activity (sign stealing, conveying info to the hitter, etc) for future seasons, in addition to management.

[Boothroyd]

If the Astro players indeed wore devices that buzzed them a code for each pitch sign stolen in the 2019 playoffs, this scandal will erupt with much higher consequences than 1/10 of the existing MLB managers being fired for complicity in the last few days.

[_speedmaster_]

If Bregman and Altuve wore buzzers, they need to be banned for life. This is way worse than steroids.

[Datejust_bass]

Somewhere, right now, there are other teams and players saying, “oh shit.. let’s hope they don’t know what we did..” what amazes me is the fans. They’re to blame more than anyone. The players are giving fans what they want.

And any losing teams that cheat go unnoticed.

In my opinion, the astros should have their title stripped. It always will have an asterisk next to it. If the league were really serious about this issue, they’d revoke the title and award it to the other team. That would be quite controversial but proper corrective action. And the GM,coach, among others, and owner should be banned for life from MLB baseball. Im not sure how you’d ban a guy from baseball. I’m thinking the entire team kne what was going on and I’m also quite sure players wear earpieces, see flashes of light from stands (cheating) ,among other things. I don’t wacth baseball. I don’t attend games even when offered free tickets. I’d rather watch paint dry, or soft core porn .. but in the end, the fans are the idiots supporting this stuff.

For a punishment, the astros should have to play a game of nhl hockey and see what real athletes are.. they’d last 4 minutes on the ice.

[AzPaul]

It's a side issue, but before this story broke, Carlos Beltran was a pretty good bet for the Hall of Fame. Does this put an end to that, or as time goes by, will the fuss start to fade and his numbers get him over?

[77T]

Originally Posted by AzPaul

It's a side issue, but before this story broke, Carlos Beltran was a pretty good bet for the Hall of Fame. Does this put an end to that, or as time goes by, will the fuss start to fade and his numbers get him over?

I’d guess his current record alone (before this issue) wouldn’t have qualified him for HoF. I don’t see him ever playing to that level again unless some team is going to risk their own reputation. So I don’t see it happening.




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[Patton250]

Originally Posted by AzPaul

Houston GM Jeff Luhnow and manager A.J. Hinch have been handed one-year suspensions, the team will forfeit their first-round and second-round draft picks in each of the next two years, and it will be fined $5 million.


Not enough? Too much?

In sports, one of the biggest fears of any league is that fans will start believing the outcomes of games aren't legit. Seems to me, baseball has now crossed that line. Especially with a similar investigation happening in Boston (though it's widely accepted that all Boston teams cheat). For a sport already struggling, not a good development.

And by the way, a $5 million dollar fine? For a team that netted $368 million in 2018, that seems awful wrist-slappy.

Meh. In baseball they have been stealing signs since signs were invented. The only difference now is it’s more sophisticated. I love how organizations from the top levels of government all the way down to even baseball how they pick and choose what they get upset over even though the guy right next to them is doing the exact same thing. It’s musical hypocrisy.

[77T]

Originally Posted by Datejust_bass

Somewhere, right now, there are other teams and players saying, “oh shit.. let’s hope they don’t know what we did..” what amazes me is the fans. They’re to blame more than anyone. The players are giving fans what they want.

And any losing teams that cheat go unnoticed.

In my opinion, the astros should have their title stripped. It always will have an asterisk next to it. If the league were really serious about this issue, they’d revoke the title and award it to the other team. That would be quite controversial but proper corrective action. And the GM,coach, among others, and owner should be banned for life from MLB baseball. Im not sure how you’d ban a guy from baseball. I’m thinking the entire team kne what was going on and I’m also quite sure players wear earpieces, see flashes of light from stands (cheating) ,among other things. I don’t wacth baseball. I don’t attend games even when offered free tickets. I’d rather watch paint dry, or soft core porn .. but in the end, the fans are the idiots supporting this stuff.

For a punishment, the astros should have to play a game of nhl hockey and see what real athletes are.. they’d last 4 minutes on the ice.

I read both of your posts and I can’t understand hockey coming up in each. But I disagree with your points on the fans somehow aiding and abetting the behavior.

In sports, at the peak of the pinnacle, each player, coach, front office, etc. is constantly seeking an advantage right up to the line where the rules limit that effort. When they cross the line into unfair and noncompliant behavior, they affect fans negatively.

Therefore, I see the vast majority of fans (except those who are corrupt themselves) renouncing the cheating because it taints the wins, the season, the title, the dynasty...




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[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by 77T

I’d guess his current record alone (before this issue) wouldn’t have qualified him for HoF. I don’t see him ever playing to that level again unless some team is going to risk their own reputation. So I don’t see it happening.




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Agreed; Carlos Beltran is not a HOFer. Great player, but not HOF.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Datejust_bass

Somewhere, right now, there are other teams and players saying, “oh shit.. let’s hope they don’t know what we did..” what amazes me is the fans. They’re to blame more than anyone. The players are giving fans what they want.

And any losing teams that cheat go unnoticed.

In my opinion, the astros should have their title stripped. It always will have an asterisk next to it. If the league were really serious about this issue, they’d revoke the title and award it to the other team. That would be quite controversial but proper corrective action. And the GM,coach, among others, and owner should be banned for life from MLB baseball. Im not sure how you’d ban a guy from baseball. I’m thinking the entire team kne what was going on and I’m also quite sure players wear earpieces, see flashes of light from stands (cheating) ,among other things. I don’t wacth baseball. I don’t attend games even when offered free tickets. I’d rather watch paint dry, or soft core porn .. but in the end, the fans are the idiots supporting this stuff.

For a punishment, the astros should have to play a game of nhl hockey and see what real athletes are.. they’d last 4 minutes on the ice.

Well, ice being the outlier in terms of sports venues, let's go ahead and bring the hockey players to the turf.

[GB-man]

Seeing the ridiculous videos showing Altuve clearly hiding electronics I would think banning him from the game for life and of course stripping the WS title would be a place to start. All management involved as well.

These guys must have pictures of bill bellicheck on their wall.

[Trouble15]

Originally Posted by mjr24

Sign stealing has definitely been around forever.

I think this was all a bit harsh.....just because you know a 100MPH fastball is coming doesn't mean you are going to hit it. I do agree the use of technology was over the line....

I somewhat agree, but if you look at the batting averages of the Astros they were like video game numbers. Can you concretely say it's because of the sign-stealing? Nope. Can't differentiate with and without. Though I'd be very interested to see how they hit this upcoming season.

In 2017 in 17 batting categories they ranked first in 10 and top 5 in 14 out of 17 categories. Again, it doesn't mean it was solid hitting only because of sign stealing, but curious about what the delta would be.

Originally Posted by GB-man

These guys must have pictures of bill bellicheck on their wall.