Baseball's Sign Stealing Problem

[AzPaul]

Houston GM Jeff Luhnow and manager A.J. Hinch have been handed one-year suspensions, the team will forfeit their first-round and second-round draft picks in each of the next two years, and it will be fined $5 million.


Not enough? Too much?

In sports, one of the biggest fears of any league is that fans will start believing the outcomes of games aren't legit. Seems to me, baseball has now crossed that line. Especially with a similar investigation happening in Boston (though it's widely accepted that all Boston teams cheat). For a sport already struggling, not a good development.

And by the way, a $5 million dollar fine? For a team that netted $368 million in 2018, that seems awful wrist-slappy.

[_speedmaster_]

Not enough. The team likely made more than $5 million from that WS run. Also, in time, people will forget this. The WS title will forever be in the record books.

[_speedmaster_]

To add, both Luhnow and Hinch have been fired.

[SemperFi]

Originally Posted by _speedmaster_

To add, both Luhnow and Hinch have been fired.

They got what they deserved.
The 5 million dollar fine is the max that can be levied on a team.
Can’t wait to see what they do to Cora.

[Gary Anderson]

What is sign stealing?

[envuks]

sign stealing has been around forever. <I think> that the difference here is the use of video cameras to perfect it, which is pretty bad in my mind. Professional hitters are extremely good at hitting when they know what’s coming as evidenced by the fact this lead to the astros wining the series.

The astros should be stripped of their title, but the league would never do that since it would draw more attention to the integrity of the game issue.

It still doesn’t compare to this season in the NFL (and last season's playoffs) where it seems the refs have made incorrect calls that change the outcome of the game. There have been quite a few NFL game outcomes that aren’t legit due to this

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by SemperFi

They got what they deserved.
The 5 million dollar fine is the max that can be levied on a team.
Can’t wait to see what they do to Cora.

I wouldn't want additional financial penalties. But this really isn't a deterrent. Especially since the players and Cora were the architect of the scheme, and no players (current or retired) will be punished in any way.

To me, both the Astros and Red Sox titles should be forfeit and officially awarded to the Dodgers.

[wantonebad]

Absolutely should throw the book at everyone involved, my team and coach is implicated as well and there is no punishment too severe as far as I'm concerned. Cheating is cheating and when your whole team is involved along with the video crew it's systemic and corrupt and not sign-stealing from the 40's and 50's, completely different. To hell with all of them!!

[Chewbacca]

Baseball needs the press.

[AzPaul]

Originally Posted by Gary Anderson

What is sign stealing?

In this case, it was using TV cameras and monitors to see what pitch the catcher was signaling the pitcher to throw, then relaying the information to the hitter. After the sign was 'stolen' a loud noise was generated by hitting a trash can with a bat. One smack for a certain pitch, two for something else, etc. Seems a bit unsophisticated, but the information had to be passed along quickly because there's only a few seconds between the time the catcher flashes the sign and the pitcher begins his windup.

[Blansky]

Lifetime bans for all involved and loss of any games won during the time.

Then one year suspension for the team. Bet it wouldn’t happen again.

It’s cheating. The present punishment is no deterrent.

[teqp]

Originally Posted by Blansky

Lifetime bans for all involved and loss of any games won during the time.

Then one year suspension for the team. Bet it wouldn’t happen again.

It’s cheating. The present punishment is no deterrent.

Agree they should get lifetime bans.

[Cru Jones]

What were two hard-fought 7-game series wins in 2017 for the Astros are now forever tainted. I feel bad for the Yankees and especially the Dodgers.

Much like the Tour de France in recent years, I wouldn’t be against an asterisk and no winner for 2017 (still don’t know enough about 2018).

[Chewbacca]

Boston is next... Stay tuned...

[SemperFi]

Originally Posted by Chewbacca

Boston is next... Stay tuned...

Looking forward to it.

[Chewbacca]

Originally Posted by SemperFi

Looking forward to it.

[MSchu]

you're not supposed to try and gain an advantage?
that doesn't make sense.

[Datejust_bass]

Originally Posted by AzPaul

Houston GM Jeff Luhnow and manager A.J. Hinch have been handed one-year suspensions, the team will forfeit their first-round and second-round draft picks in each of the next two years, and it will be fined $5 million.


Not enough? Too much?

In sports, one of the biggest fears of any league is that fans will start believing the outcomes of games aren't legit. Seems to me, baseball has now crossed that line. Especially with a similar investigation happening in Boston (though it's widely accepted that all Boston teams cheat). For a sport already struggling, not a good development.

And by the way, a $5 million dollar fine? For a team that netted $368 million in 2018, that seems awful wrist-slappy.

Sounds sanctimonious and I apologize but until the fans stop attending games and patronizing the stuff, it’s never going to end... a few years from now, this will be old news. People overall don’t care. I don’t watch baseball and never attend games myself. For me, it’s more about life risk to attend games in bad areas, etc, but the cheating will never end because the money is too high. Look at the New England patriots vs rams..... filming practices etc .. I’m pretty sure hockey is similar, just hasn’t been exposed.

[PeqFB]

Originally Posted by MSchu

you're not supposed to try and gain an advantage?
that doesn't make sense.

Not by cheating. You can steal signs by watching with the naked eye, just can’t use technology to do so.

[martinjames192]

I really don't understand what "sign stealing " means but any cheat involved in a sports isn't welcomed and from the thread, a 5 million fine for a team that made more than 10 times more is certainly not a way of curbing the act.

Sent from my SM-A105F using Tapatalk

[Andad]

Seems like a lot of fuss over a game of rounders?

[superdog]

If you are not cheating, you are not trying.

[jnelson3097]

Originally Posted by PeqFB

Not by cheating. You can steal signs by watching with the naked eye, just can’t use technology to do so.

Once you start introducing technology to do it, you’ve gone too far. If you’re a base runner on second stealing signs from a catcher, that’s all fair game but having a specific camera and video guy in the dugout that’s too far.

It’ll be interesting to see what happens with Carlos Beltran since he’s been specifically named in the reports. No players will be punished but I wonder if they’ll do anything now that’s he’s a manager.

[Boothroyd]

This game exists by antitrust exemption. Anything that threatens additional congressional oversite is huge issue. And Boston's manager got bounced today as well. This isn't over.

[seand442]

Gain an advantage is one thing, this is a whole new level. Glad to see Hinch, Cora and the GM get canned. I’d like to see the players get something, but they won’t, at least not from the commissioner. I’ll guarantee the Astros lead MLB in hit by pitches next year.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Chewbacca

Boston is next... Stay tuned...

and what about those deflated footballs

[mjr24]

Sign stealing has definitely been around forever.

I think this was all a bit harsh.....just because you know a 100MPH fastball is coming doesn't mean you are going to hit it. I do agree the use of technology was over the line....but to compare this to the Black Sox scandal is laughable.

Then again, I think the whole steroid thing was way overblown, too.....it never really bothered me that much. Throwing/fixing games is one thing.....but sign stealing and steroids....doesn't guarantee anything. I mean, is sign stealing any more unfair than the Yankees having a payroll three times that of the A's?

That being said, I think there was a gentleman's agreement here with MLB for the Astros and Sox to can Hinch and Cora.....to make it look like they are serious. No one is going to lose out here....Hinch and Cora will serve their one year suspensions and be hired in a second once they are up.

[MILGAUSS88]

Originally Posted by AzPaul

[I]
In sports, one of the biggest fears of any league is that fans will start believing the outcomes of games aren't legit.

I have seen this argument, somewhere else as well and think that is not the point at all.
If they were trying to throw the game then the outcome is not legit.

This is cheating to win, as such I think it should be punished similarly.
To me it seems to be at the same level as using steroids, a spit ball, a corked bat. An underinflated football.
There is a long history of cheating, I don't remember anyone ever getting a year suspension for the first offense.
You have to get caught four times with steroids to get a years suspension.
Imo, give everyone involved a 25 day suspension, the high end of what they could get for first time steroid use.
If almost the entire team is suspended, for 25 days, they will have a hard time competing for the top of the division that year.

[PeqFB]

Originally Posted by mjr24

.Hinch and Cora will serve their one year suspensions and be hired in a second once they are up.

IMO no team will ever hire these two again.

[Cloudchaser]

I find it especially ironic that Alex Cora so often seemed to be so vocally self-righteous...while cheating to the extent that he was. At the end of last season, he even publicly called out an opposing player for not playing the game "the right way."