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Old 26 July 2020, 10:50 PM   #1
nboyer
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Weird Timing Issues [Cal. 1565]

Hello folks. I recently finished a project watch that was setting on the bench for some time. The issue I'm looking for help on is a timing related one. I've regulated the watch to -3 sec/day and decided to stop. I left it on the timing machine to periodically monitor over the course of a few hours. It was pretty consistent. I came back to the watch the next morning (about 10 hours or so later) and the time is off by about an hour. I put the watch immediately on the timing machine and it showed around -4 sec/day. Any ideas on how to proceed to troubleshoot? This was a project watch purchased from an auction site, so I have no history on the watch. Could it be that the someone may have interchanged a center, third, or second wheel from another model with different gear ratio - is that even physically possible? Whats else would cause this sort of loss? Any help appreciated. Cheers. -Norm
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Old 27 July 2020, 02:53 AM   #2
Nickn
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Was it an hour slow or fast?
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Old 27 July 2020, 05:08 AM   #3
nboyer
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It was slow. Cheers. -Norm


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Was it an hour slow or fast?
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Old 27 July 2020, 06:25 AM   #4
Fredrik
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Did you enter the correct beat rate for the caliber in your timing machine? The 1565 is 18k and 1575 19.8k, that 10% might be what you are seeing.
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Old 27 July 2020, 06:33 AM   #5
nboyer
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Thanks Fredrik. Yes the timing machine correctly detected the proper beat. I think itís either a loose cannon pinion or someone before me replaced one or more of the train of wheels with the wrong one. The results on the timing machine are decent, which I understand means at least the hairspring, pallet fork and escape wheel are good. Please correct me if Iím wrong. Iím looking for advice on how to determine is itís a train of wheels problem. Cheers. -Norm

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Did you enter the correct beat rate for the caliber in your timing machine? The 1565 is 18k and 1575 19.8k, that 10% might be what you are seeing.
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Old 27 July 2020, 04:45 PM   #6
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I do not know exactly what the differences are between the the older and newer, faster, 1500-series movements are.

Could it be a 1570-based movement with a 1560 balance? That would give you those symptoms.
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Old 27 July 2020, 10:59 PM   #7
nboyer
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Hello Fredrik - I do not believe that to be the case. If it were, would I not see the discrepancy in time on the timing machine? The timing machine picks up on the beat acoustics (tick tock). The sound is generated by the escapement. There does not appear to be any problems with this per the timing machine. I think I will investigate a loose cannon pinion next. Thank you for responding. Cheers. -Norm
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Old 28 July 2020, 04:45 AM   #8
Fredrik
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Yes, the timing machine will listen to the watch, compare the timing to its internal timer and then guess the beat rate to be whatever beat rate is closest to what it hears. If you speed up the balance it will eventually be identified as a having a 19.8k beat rate and tell you how it performs using that as a base.

You seem to be having a watch ticking at close to 18k but with gears expecting a 19.8k beat rate. I can not help you with further diagnostics, I am not that familiar with the differences and similarities between a 1560 and 1570 movement.

Good luck, and I hope someone more knowledgeable will show up soon to help you.
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Old 4 August 2020, 08:27 AM   #9
Fred48
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Possibly the watch is intermittently stopping/starting, perhaps due to the balance getting momentarily hung up? Does the error repeat consistently?
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Old 4 August 2020, 09:02 AM   #10
nboyer
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Hello Fred. The watch does not stop/start. I am planning to either crimp the existing cannon pinion or replace it and see if that will fix it. Cheers. -Norm
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Old 8 August 2020, 05:28 AM   #11
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Your suspicion about the gear train count is likely correct. It is physically possible to have incorrect train wheels fitted and still have the movement apparently working correctly. The 1530/35/55/60/65 s are 18,000 vb/hr, the 1520/25/56/70/75 are all 19,800 vb/hr. Because of this the 4th (small seconds) wheel and escape pinion have a different tooth/leave count. You cannot fit/mix these up. The end result will be a dial time display discrepency of about 10sec/min. The reading on the timing machine will not be affected. It will appear normal. You will need to source an 7834 seconds/4th wheel and an 7841 escape wheel for calibre 1530/60 etc... This is the only way to be certain you have the correct train count if you are getting this result and you suspect the wheels have been swapped out at some time. Hope this helps.
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Old 8 August 2020, 08:04 AM   #12
nboyer
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Thanks Ironstark, I appreciate your comments and advise. Before I go through replacing the wheels, as a hobbyist my source for parts is pretty much eBay at the inflated prices, do you have or can you point me in the direction that would provide info on the number of leave counts for the wheels? This is turning out to be a pretty expensive project for me. Cheers. -Norm

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Your suspicion about the gear train count is likely correct. It is physically possible to have incorrect train wheels fitted and still have the movement apparently working correctly. The 1530/35/55/60/65 s are 18,000 vb/hr, the 1520/25/56/70/75 are all 19,800 vb/hr. Because of this the 4th (small seconds) wheel and escape pinion have a different tooth/leave count. You cannot fit/mix these up. The end result will be a dial time display discrepency of about 10sec/min. The reading on the timing machine will not be affected. It will appear normal. You will need to source an 7834 seconds/4th wheel and an 7841 escape wheel for calibre 1530/60 etc... This is the only way to be certain you have the correct train count if you are getting this result and you suspect the wheels have been swapped out at some time. Hope this helps.
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Old 9 August 2020, 11:11 PM   #13
Ironstark
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Originally Posted by nboyer View Post
Thanks Ironstark, I appreciate your comments and advise. Before I go through replacing the wheels, as a hobbyist my source for parts is pretty much eBay at the inflated prices, do you have or can you point me in the direction that would provide info on the number of leave counts for the wheels? This is turning out to be a pretty expensive project for me. Cheers. -Norm
Unfortunately Rolex wheel specification is not that detailed, not outside of manufacture at least. There is no tooth/leave count listed in any technical documentation or on My Rolex World Service.

In the past if I have had a suspicion of incorrect wheel fitted I have had to do a physical tooth count and compare both types of wheels. Easier if you have easy access to Rolex after sales materials I know.
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Old 10 August 2020, 11:12 PM   #14
nboyer
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Thanks again, Ironstark. Just ordered both the fourth wheel and escape wheel for the 1530 in factory-sealed blister pack. Cheers. -Norm

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Originally Posted by Ironstark View Post
Unfortunately Rolex wheel specification is not that detailed, not outside of manufacture at least. There is no tooth/leave count listed in any technical documentation or on My Rolex World Service.

In the past if I have had a suspicion of incorrect wheel fitted I have had to do a physical tooth count and compare both types of wheels. Easier if you have easy access to Rolex after sales materials I know.
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