PANERAI 2019: The Beginning of a New Scam Era!

[fullcourt]

Originally Posted by yobxelor

No scams now too. Back then when 232 came out ppl were crying foul abt a 2 hand steel watch with Unitas movt asking for exorbitant prices. The 360 created an even bigger stir with “hardcore” ristis leaving bec they were not being allocated the watch.

I call this evolution. Not scam.

Today, Panerai is in a nice place where tradition and high-tech co-exist. They still do produce very nice vintage inspired pcs side by side their high tech pcs. Look at last year’s 720, 721, 911, or the year before’s 662, 663, 673, etc.


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spot on....i wasn't around back in the 232 launch days but agree that it's evolution. i currently own one, definetly a favorite.

also the fact that these watches aren't being flipped for the big money like they were a few years ago also has brought a fair amt of 'hatred' towards the brand and these calls that the brand is dead.

as i said before, none of the new subs float my boat but I do like the new 8-day rad, and want to see the new cali dial, although the one i have can't be beat.

[inadeje]

I “loved” (past tense) Panerai and still have numerous pieces. However, I concur with the OP, they’ve lost the plot entirely over the past few years. Add to this the pompous “boutiques” who are just mechanisms for grey dealers to get LE watches. I won’t even go into few personal stories I have which include having 20k in my pocket, the dealer physically having the watch, yet, it was not sold to me. Thankfully, the rolex AD is one block away and they happily allowed me to part with the money.

[inadeje]

Continued rant - what really killed the love for panerai was the “sell your soul” to the marketing devil...“DUE” range with the luminor historic diving case, click on back and, what was it? 30 meter water resistance? Using the historic design cues to create a non functional (dive) model is corruption of the brands ethos.

[synequano]

I'm looking forward to the day Panerai put the WR on the dial and can you imagine the reaction of potential buyer when they're planning to buy a due?? Some might think it's a typo....

[SPMN]

Originally Posted by brandrea

I got scammed big time

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Wow! That is a gorgeous watch and pair of photos.

[Paul_I]

Think people are being overly harsh of a fairly well written argument, carbotech is all hype, no substance and they want a huge premium for it. It’s not a precious metal, so the gold comparison doesn’t jive. I also would prefer stainless.

[Paul_I]

Originally Posted by synequano

I'm looking forward to the day Panerai put the WR on the dial and can you imagine the reaction of potential buyer when they're planning to buy a due?? Some might think it's a typo....

Yeah, all those military divers that are buying Panerai for operational use are gonna be so surprised. As it turns out, the casual (average) buyer who wants to take wrist shots in their Porsche won’t be bothered.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by SPMN

Wow! That is a gorgeous watch and pair of photos.

Thanks brother, love the 690

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[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by Paul_I

Think people are being overly harsh of a fairly well written argument, carbotech is all hype, no substance and they want a huge premium for it. It’s not a precious metal, so the gold comparison doesn’t jive. I also would prefer stainless.

All hype? In what way?

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by Paul_I

Yeah, all those military divers that are buying Panerai for operational use are gonna be so surprised. As it turns out, the casual (average) buyer who wants to take wrist shots in their Porsche won’t be bothered.

Good trolling, but everyone knows that about the Due.

[Paul_I]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

All hype? In what way?

See OPs original post.

[Paul_I]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

Good trolling, but everyone knows that about the Due.

Is it trolling if it’s true?

[Saoirse32]

Originally Posted by Paul_I

Is it trolling if it’s true?

I think the “trolling” part was your statement regarding people taking pics in their Porsches etc...what percentage of people buy ANY of these luxury brands and brag and/or use them for actual diving? C’mon man! Plus most know all about the Due line.


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[crazycarlitos]

Originally Posted by Paul_I

Yeah, all those military divers that are buying Panerai for operational use are gonna be so surprised. As it turns out, the casual (average) buyer who wants to take wrist shots in their Porsche won’t be bothered.

Ta-da!

I buy what I like

[Vaxe]

Thanks OP for pointing this out, Panerai has indeed fallen quite a bit. I own a 557 and have no plans of ever getting another.

Originally Posted by Panerol Forte

I would like to hear your opinions in this thread after the unveiling of the new Submersible line-up.

Here is mine:

Untill some decades ago, the luxury industry used to provide the rich with refined high quality goods. Along with these goods came impeccable service and esteem for the patrons. There was only one golden rule: the satisfaction of the customer. It took years and efforts for those luxury brands to establish themselves as caterers of perfection and their reputation was above any consideration, not even financial.

Those were the golden days. Nowadays, luxury became synonymous of rip-off! Mass produced items manufactured in poor countries by underpaid workers in unhealthy environments are sold as Luxury items with incredible mark-ups to trusting customers unaware they are being ripped-off. Their golden rule nowadays is: make more money at any cost. Deception is acceptable, as long as profitability is increased.

What do I mean by deception? Making a costumer believe he is paying the real value of an object by giving false information is deception. Pretending the build process is long, complicated and time consuming to justify high premium, and the reality being completly the opposite, is deception.
I am going to give you an example of deception. "CARBOTECH": it sounds high tech! How do they describe it? "Forged Carbon Fiber". Panerai sells their Carbotech watches for a very high premium over stainles steel, so it must be very difficult and complex to manufacture, hence the price difference. The Submersible Marina Militare Carbotech 47mm PAM00979 sells for 19.900 Euros, and the Submersible Amagnetic 47mm PAM01389 for 10.700 Euros. That equates to a difference of 9.200 Euros, that's almost the double for the Carbotech. Same watch, same movement, P.9010 both, same water resistance. What if I told you that the stainless steel model cost them a LOT more to produce than the Carbotech?

Lets start with the "cheap" model, the stainless steel one. You already have seen all the CNC machines at work milling SS cases. SS is the most difficult metal to machine, it wears the tools like no other. Then, you have the finishing and the polishing. Dont forget the ceramic bezel, also not an easy job. And now let's talk about the Carbotech Forged Carbon Fiber. "Forged" sounds good. Some of you may think of a Japanese sword smith hammering his katana made of meteoritic steel next to a raging furnace. Others may think of the forged high performance pistons of their supercar, forged with a single stroke of a 50.000 Ton hydraulic press. Well, I hate to disappoint you all, the heat it takes to "forge"carbon fiber is 138 degrees celcius, that's 280.4 degrees fahrenheit... by comparison, french fries need the oil to be not less than 177 degrees C, or 350 degrees F, and the same temperature goes for your mom's cookies. What about the press that "forges"? well guess what? 1 Ton is more than enough! Time consuming? You must be kidding, you can make at least 10 Carbotech cases by the time you finish 1 SS case. You don't believe me? DO YOUR RESEARCH!

And now, for 2019, they raised the bar even higher. They took the same Carboteh watch, same movement, same WR, made some color variations, and they offer you the same watch that ranges from 17.900 Euros to 40.000 Euros, depending on the color you chose. Of course, the 40.000 Euros one is limited to 33 pieces, and comes with a training session with the elite divers of the Italian Navy. Well, if you buy one of those LE, everybody will know when they see your green watch that you are one of the 33 suckers that paid an extra 20.000 Euros to be ridiculed by a bunch of over trained elite divers that by the way use ultra sophisticated diving computers, not obsolete watches described on Panerai's website as "Survival instruments for modern heros".. yes, they want you to believe that if you give them your hard earned cash, you are a modern hero!

Another interesting thing is that the PAM00616 is still priced at 16.600 Euros, cheaper by 1.300 Euros than the cheapest new Submersible. The reason must be the fact that it has the P.9000 vs the P.9010 for the new ones. It makes sense. But then, I would like them to explain to us how come the new 42s, with the downgraded caliber are more expensive that the old Sub 42 that has a P.9010 .

I won't talk about the OP.XXXIV, a picture is worth a thousand words. Enjoy!

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by Paul_I

Think people are being overly harsh of a fairly well written argument, carbotech is all hype, no substance and they want a huge premium for it. It’s not a precious metal, so the gold comparison doesn’t jive. I also would prefer stainless.

Originally Posted by Vaxe

Thanks OP for pointing this out, Panerai has indeed fallen quite a bit. I own a 557 and have no plans of ever getting another.

Guys, OP has zero actual knowledge as to what is Panerai’s manufacturing process to transform threads of carbon into submersible cases. A unique process that created individual cases able to withstand significant pressure and abuse. Did he produce the specs? Did he take apart a case? Did he try to create his own case (since it’s “so cheap and easy”)? Did he point out other brands doing the same? Does he offer any proof?

He just made some unsubstantiated claims based on “internet research” and called them “fact”.

This whole thread really is the definition of “fake news”.

Even the point about the movements in the 42 mm versions does not equate to a scam...the calibres are clearly noted on the site. Instead, read about the 318.... that was a true Panerai scam! ......a scam so good that secondary prices have gone up. ;-)

[rambo99]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

Guys, OP has zero actual knowledge as to what is Panerai’s manufacturing process to transform threads of carbon into submersible cases. A unique process that created individual cases able to withstand significant pressure and abuse. Did he produce the specs? Did he take apart a case? Did he try to create his own case (since it’s “so cheap and easy”)? Did he point out other brands doing the same? Does he offer any proof?

He just made some unsubstantiated claims based on “internet research” and called them “fact”.

This whole thread really is the definition of “fake news”.

Even the point about the movements in the 42 mm versions does not equate to a scam...the calibres are clearly noted on the site. Instead, read about the 318.... that was a true Panerai scam! ......a scam so good that secondary prices have gone up. ;-)

agree, to say carbotech a scam is just too far. even it's really not costing too much to produce, the investment in R&D should also be considered. I really like the 799 with bmg case and carbotech bezel. but its 47mm which is too big for me, hope they will come up with a 44/42mm version later.

[Panerol Forte]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

Guys, OP has zero actual knowledge as to what is Panerai’s manufacturing process to transform threads of carbon into submersible cases. A unique process that created individual cases able to withstand significant pressure and abuse. Did he produce the specs? Did he take apart a case? Did he try to create his own case (since it’s “so cheap and easy”)? Did he point out other brands doing the same? Does he offer any proof?

What allows you to make statements about my knowledge? Do you know me personally? Do you have any knowledge about my life or my field of expertise? You want me to offer proofs of what I am stating? How about YOU prooving me wrong? I challenge you to this! Let's see YOUR level of expertise! Put your money where your mouth is!

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

He just made some unsubstantiated claims based on “internet research” and called them “fact”.

I love the "quote unquote "internet research". Just for your knowldge, the internet was developed by the military to allow the universities that were contributing to their research to link to them and to each other in order to share the results of their research. Today, the internet is the depositary off all the knowledge and all the bull that exist in the world. You will find either one, depending on your skills and your competence.

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

This whole thread really is the definition of “fake news”.

That, I won't comment!... but it gives me an idea of your background, and that you are definitely not French.

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

Even the point about the movements in the 42 mm versions does not equate to a scam...the calibres are clearly noted on the site. Instead, read about the 318.... that was a true Panerai scam! ......a scam so good that secondary prices have gone up. ;-)

Really? The calibres are clearly noted on the Panerai site? No, they are not! And you want to pose as a knowlegable Paneristi, even though you never visited the caliber section of the Panerai site!. Here are the links to the calibers sections on the Panerai site, show me OP.XXXIV or any OP caliber:

https://www.panerai.com/fr/fr/know-h...movements.html
https://www.panerai.com/fr/fr/know-h...movements.html

[rambo99]

I also noticed the movement spec section of the 959/683 is blank on the official site. may be they are still new and not fully updated(also no price yet), or may be they are still thinking of better terms to sell the new non inhouse movement. haha!

[Panerol Forte]

Originally Posted by rambo99

I also noticed the movement spec section of the 959/683 is blank on the official site. may be they are still new and not fully updated(also no price yet), or may be they are still thinking of better terms to sell the new non inhouse movement. haha!

Spot on

[MP5]

OP is right and its been right since the swiss took the company out of italy. It was always going to be a bloodstone for the Swiss to squeeze. And that brings us to today and we are talking disguised Baume movts instead of $100 base eta catalogue movements. I still begrudgingly have a soft spot for Panerai though. Genießen!

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by MP5

OP is right and its been right since the swiss took the company out of italy. It was always going to be a bloodstone for the Swiss to squeeze. And that brings us to today and we are talking disguised Baume movts instead of $100 base eta catalogue movements. I still begrudgingly have a soft spot for Panerai though. Genießen!

At least Panerai has the honesty to not call them “in-house”, although they could have, since the movement is a corporate Richemont movement (not a Baume movement). To have done otherwise would have bordered on being a scam, I suppose.

As for ETA movements of the past, they were always upgraded and finished by Panerai, not straight out of the catalogue (except maybe the 318 ).... no, it’s true, ultimately not expensive, but robust and reliable. But I doubt much difference in price compared to what it costs Rolex today to build a 3135 movement. And since when does expensive = quality? In-house ultimately means expensive servicing.

And in-house doesn’t mean that much when the watch is plain or ugly (see the Code 11:59 as a prime example).

[Jocke]

Originally Posted by Panerol Forte

Someone tried to make a point by comparing watches to cars. I will do it once. The Corvette engine is a hell of an engine, so is the car, but I wouldn't want to have it in my Ferrari.

Any pics of your Ferrari?

[yobxelor]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

And in-house doesn’t mean that much when the watch is plain or ugly (see the Code 11:59 as a prime example).

That one got even the watch journalists shaking their heads...

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[MP5]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

At least Panerai has the honesty to not call them “in-house”, although they could have, since the movement is a corporate Richemont movement (not a Baume movement). To have done otherwise would have bordered on being a scam, I suppose.

As for ETA movements of the past, they were always upgraded and finished by Panerai, not straight out of the catalogue (except maybe the 318 ).... no, it’s true, ultimately not expensive, but robust and reliable. But I doubt much difference in price compared to what it costs Rolex today to build a 3135 movement. And since when does expensive = quality? In-house ultimately means expensive servicing.

And in-house doesn’t mean that much when the watch is plain or ugly (see the Code 11:59 as a prime example).

Agree with most all of your post, though Im not particularly concerned the semantics of Pam calling it in house- to their credit they dont but thats just for the WIS. Everyone else sees it starts as OP and assume.

I have zero issue with the old panerai panerai panerai bridges, even the square bridge, Had a bit of a problem with the much less decoration of the Panerai bridge movements and what I was referring to is the the absolutely horrid decision to milk as much money as possible out of the American boutique as to offer that pig metal 318 movement. Even the ebay build-a-watch sellers wouldnt dare to offer that trim! But there is Panerai and asking $5K for it.

I would PREFER they go back to ETA Panerai, Panerai, Panerai bridges tbh

[Panerol Forte]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

As for ETA movements of the past, they were always upgraded and finished by Panerai, not straight out of the catalogue (except maybe the 318 )....

The past? there are still 3 watches on their website at the present moment using Eta movements:

Two with OP.XXX

https://www.panerai.com/fr/fr/collec...or---40mm.html
https://www.panerai.com/fr/fr/collec...or---44mm.html

One with OP.XXXII

https://www.panerai.com/fr/fr/collec...ve---44mm.html

They are both based on ETA 7750 (a stripped-down version of the Valjoux 7750, but I am sure you already knew that).

Till the end of 2018, they refered to those movements, on their site, as "exclusive Panerai OP.XXX calibre" and "exclusive Panerai OP.XXXII calibre"
Since the beginnig of this year, they removed the OP reference in the "Technical Details" of said watches.

But why are you waisting your time on calibers? Aren't you supposed to be researching in your library the proofs that will expose my ignorance?

[MP5]

You French guys are hot around the collar these days! ;)

[Panerol Forte]

Originally Posted by Jocke

Any pics of your Ferrari?

That's the best argument you could come with to counter my technical post about Carbotech and watch movements?

God! Every time I think we reached the bottom of the barrel, a new genius pops out!

[Panerol Forte]

Originally Posted by MP5

You French guys are hot around the collar these days! ;)

[Jocke]

Originally Posted by Panerol Forte

That's the best argument you could come with to counter my technical post about Carbotech and watch movements?

God! Every time I think we reached the bottom of the barrel, a new genius pops out!

Not genius, just curious.

But smart enough not to try to understand what made a watch prisworthy.