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Old 12 December 2017, 03:06 AM   #61
Tony64
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It didn't sound like a command to me. Seems he's just making suggestions to help folks stay as healthy as possible during flu season.
Thank you Pickett, that was exactly what I was suggesting, and obviously not a mandate.

I hadn't anticipated such an aggressive response, but MrTwi has some strong feelings which I respect.

I'm hoping to keep this in proper perspective. I'm clearly not talking about the common cold or even a more traditional flu season experience.

I'm specifically addressing a much more virulent than usual flu strain, and a much less effective vaccine this year.

Maybe there are cultural differences and priorities that I haven't fully considered, but it seemed reasonable to at least propose the concept of temporarily avoiding such contact. I've tried to approach this analytically and site references where appropriate.

Some healthcare facilities seem to avocate this policy, and my wife's church no longer offers the communal chalice.

With a potentially deadly disease, and a vaccine with only a reported 10% effectiveness (which I would also encourage), why not look for other easy and potentially more effective ways to avoid transmission?

Before any one suggests otherwise, I'm not advocating living the life of a hermit.

I'm also more than open to other, perhaps better informed, recommendations.

But I'm admittedly surprised by the rather cavalier attitude many of you seem to have.
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Old 12 December 2017, 03:33 AM   #62
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Thank you Pickett, that was exactly what I was suggesting, and obviously not a mandate.

I hadn't anticipated such an aggressive response, but MrTwi has some strong feelings which I respect.
No, you misunderstand. What I am saying is "do whatever you want. If this upsets you, then don't shake hands, don't touch anything, whatever you choose to do. Its all up to you. Go for it. OTH, don't impose your standards on others. Let them do whatever they feel like doing to.

Do remember the 1976 Swine Flu? PANIC PANIC DANGER

meh, big nothing. But everyone had to get shots.

If I google flu season, i read a few articles, mostly

DANGER DANGER, WORLD ABOUT TO END!!!

It all reads as click bait to me. But they most all link to one of two places:

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/fluactivitysurv.htm or
http://www.health.gov.au/flureport#current

GO to the source. I know that's difficult with fake news everywhere but ignore the pieces by blogs and virtual magazines and get your info from the source. I assume you do because you sound involved and into this. Then do whatever makes you happy. Don't shake hands, do shake hands, don't go out, do go out. Be happy. Just don't impose your standards or everyone else.

He healthy and be safe :) BTW, I have had the flu, not fun. Get a shot. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, oh well, I tried.

BTW, if we, or I sound cavalier, well I've seen a lot of:

Oh NO, the world is going to end next week!!!
Look, a comet in the sky!
Look, drink the Koolaid!
Look, 2012 is coming and the calendar ends.
Look, Swine Flu will kill everyone.
Look!! In the SKY, its OVER!!!!

Uhmm, nope, didn't happen. Now if Yellowstone blows, THEN you need to worry. In fact, RUN.
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Old 12 December 2017, 03:33 AM   #63
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Only had the flu a few times in my life and only once the last dozen years.
Bacterial pneumonias have been a bigger problem.
From what I've been told, there's a highly effective vaccine for that. Maybe something to ask your doctor about.





Edit : https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/pne...lic/index.html
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Old 12 December 2017, 03:50 AM   #64
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No, you misunderstand. What I am saying is "do whatever you want"

If this upsets you, then don't shake hands, don't touch anything, whatever you choose to do. Its all up to you. Go for it.

OTH, don't impose your standards on others. Let them do whatever they feel like doing to.

Do remember the 1976 Swine Flu? PANIC PANIC

DANGER

meh, big nothing. But everyone had to get shots.

If I google flu season, i read a few articles, mostly

DANGER DANGER, WORLD ABOUT TO END!!!

It all reads as click bait to me.

But they most all link to one of two places:

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/fluactivitysurv.htm or
http://www.health.gov.au/flureport#current

GO to the source. I know that's difficult with fake news everywhere but ignore the pieces by blogs and virtual magazines and get your info for the source. I assume you do because you sound involved and into this.

Then do whatever makes you happy. Don't shake hands, do shake hands, don't go out, do go out. Be happy. Just don't impose your standards or the everyone else.

He healthy and be safe :)

I actually agree with you on almost all points.

In fact, in another thread ("get your flu shot or you're fired") I've been rather outspoken in defense of healthcare workers who have lost their jobs rather than subject themselves to a hospital mandated vaccination policy.

In balance though, I have also considered the opposing views of some forum members who agree strongly with this policy of mandatory adult vaccinations, and who advocate for the greater concern for public safety over personal liberty.

From what I've read, containing the spread of the flu virus does seem to require a "herd approach". Hence the proponents of universal vaccinations. This year though, even those in favor of such a mandate must concede that with only a 10% effectiveness, vaccination alone isn't sufficient containment.

If avoiding handshaking for the duration of the flu season can help prevent larger outbreaks, wouldn't that be something to consider, for your own protection and for others?

I realize for many this topic probably holds as much interest as a typical BC thread, but I do appreciate the thoughtful feedback many, like yourself, have chosen to share.

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Old 12 December 2017, 04:07 AM   #65
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Took a shuttle at the airport not even in cold season and went to give the guy a handshake for grabbing my Luggage from underneath the bus and he left me hanging and just awkwardly walked away. The lady behind me who was older was like wow young man that was quite rude of him but keep in mind it’s a different world we live in today. Truth lady truth.
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Old 12 December 2017, 04:15 AM   #66
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In fact, in another thread ("get your flu shot or you're fired") I've been rather outspoken in defense of healthcare workers who have lost their jobs rather than subject themselves to a hospital mandated vaccination policy.
I have not read all these thread but I can figure out via common sense that if one works in a certain environment, and the employer mandates conditions for employment, then follow the mandates or move on.

For example, don't sports contracts might say "you can't do something dangerous, no skiing for you". Thats a contract. Don't like it? Go work elsewhere. So I guess I disagree with this. No one FORCES anyone to work at a specific hospital. Thats an employer/employee contract.

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In balance though, I have also considered the opposing views of some forum members who agree strongly with this policy of mandatory adult vaccinations, and who advocate for the greater concern for public safety over personal liberty.
IMO its not individual rights but contract law. Someone employees them. Don't like it? Go get another job. No one is forcing them to get a shot. They only need the shot if they want to be paid by that company.

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From what I've read, containing the spread of the flu virus does seem to require a "herd approach". Hence the proponents of universal vaccinations. This year though, even those in favor of such a mandate must concede that with only a 10% effectiveness, vaccination alone isn't sufficient containment.

If avoiding handshaking for the duration of the flu season can help prevent larger outbreaks, wouldn't that be something to consider, for your own protection and for others?
Sure, if you care about. I suspect most people don't care. I expect they are so used to Flu Season and the associated warnings, they just expect to get a small case of the flu or the shot will take care of it.

You are making the assumption the majority of people care. I doubt they do. They are too worried about buying Christmas presents or snowstorms. Maybe in Mid-January they might but every winter people get sick. Most recover.

Its all good. Everyone thinks differently. This isn't something most people will think about. The Flu has been around forever, just like the cold.

If its only 10% effective, what happened when there were no flu shots? Did the country survive? Lets look at the data https://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmw...cid=mm5933a1_w

Unfortunately, the data is not broken out on a per capita basis, just raw numbers. But just looking at numbers ... In 2007, over 41,000 people died in car accidents. Looks like maybe, at best, 13,000 from the flu?

... you have a 3 times greater chance of getting hit by a bus (car accident) then dying of the flu).

and thats why probably few people ever think about this. Proportion. Take everything in the right proportions. Worry about the drunk driver more than this
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Old 12 December 2017, 05:21 AM   #67
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I can't argue with your logic, MrTwi, it's seems reasoned and well stated, and certainly as valid as any.

I'd like to offer one small clarification on the issue of the hospital mandated vaccinations. My understanding was that these were healthcare workers who were not required to be vaccinated at the time of employment. It was added retroactively as a condition of continued employment. Hence, "get the shot or you're fired", and not "get the shot or don't get hired".

Not sure if that's relevant to your analysis, but wanted to clarify my defense of these doctors/nurses. I have no problem at all with an employer setting the terms of employment, whether vaccination status, tobacco use, hair length, or piercings. As long as it doesn't violate anyone's contitutionally protected status, I'll leave it to the employer and potential employee to sort out. No one has a right to employment - not yet anyway.

I do have a problem with an otherwise good employee being fired after years of loyal service for refusing to comply with this mandate. I'm probably not nearly as versed in contract law as you are, but if I hire an employee with a tattoo, can I later fire that same employee, without cause, simply because I've now decided to impose a "no tattoo" policy?
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Old 12 December 2017, 05:42 AM   #68
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Took a shuttle at the airport not even in cold season and went to give the guy a handshake for grabbing my Luggage from underneath the bus and he left me hanging and just awkwardly walked away. The lady behind me who was older was like wow young man that was quite rude of him but keep in mind it’s a different world we live in today. Truth lady truth.
Yeah, I'd probably be that guy, although I'm sure I'd end up shaking your hand just to avoid the awkwardness, then quickly look for the nearest wash station.

During this flu season, I'm not so sure. I might just risk looking like an ass, and avoid the contact.

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Old 12 December 2017, 05:44 AM   #69
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It's a polite way to refuse an extended hand by claiming that you are the one that's been a little sick and you don't want to spread it.
Pickett, I think that's the answer I'm looking for.

Simple. Effective. Nonconfrontational.


Thanks
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Old 12 December 2017, 05:59 AM   #70
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Pickett, I think that's the answer I'm looking for.

Simple. Effective. Nonconfrontational.


Thanks
Or.... you can scratch your balls before you stick out your hand. Guaranteed no one shakes it
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Old 12 December 2017, 06:05 AM   #71
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Thank you Pickett, that was exactly what I was suggesting, and obviously not a mandate.

I hadn't anticipated such an aggressive response, but MrTwi has some strong feelings which I respect.

I'm hoping to keep this in proper perspective. I'm clearly not talking about the common cold or even a more traditional flu season experience.

I'm specifically addressing a much more virulent than usual flu strain, and a much less effective vaccine this year.

Maybe there are cultural differences and priorities that I haven't fully considered, but it seemed reasonable to at least propose the concept of temporarily avoiding such contact. I've tried to approach this analytically and site references where appropriate.

Some healthcare facilities seem to avocate this policy, and my wife's church no longer offers the communal chalice.

With a potentially deadly disease, and a vaccine with only a reported 10% effectiveness (which I would also encourage), why not look for other easy and potentially more effective ways to avoid transmission?

Before any one suggests otherwise, I'm not advocating living the life of a hermit.

I'm also more than open to other, perhaps better informed, recommendations.

But I'm admittedly surprised by the rather cavalier attitude many of you seem to have.


I think I fit into the 'cavalier attitude' category. I have never used hand sanitizer, just regular soap and water, and I have never worried about shaking hands unless I can see that someone is ill.
I have only gotten the flu a couple of times in my life so I really don't worry about catching it. Basically it doesn't worry me enough to change my habits.
As stated in above post, you can find good and bad studies with anything, there are studies that say hand sanitizer kills good bacteria as well as bad. True or not I have no idea as I'm not a Dr.
As with anything, everyone draws the line at a different point.



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Old 12 December 2017, 06:34 AM   #72
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I'd prefer a crisp salute to a handshake anytime - flu season or not.
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Old 12 December 2017, 06:44 AM   #73
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I'd prefer a crisp salute to a handshake anytime - flu season or not.
Now that's what I'm talkin about!

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Old 12 December 2017, 06:45 AM   #74
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Or.... you can scratch your balls before you stick out your hand. Guaranteed no one shakes it
I don't know what to say.

Thanks?
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Old 12 December 2017, 07:29 AM   #75
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if I hire an employee with a tattoo, can I later fire that same employee, without cause, simply because I've now decided to impose a "no tattoo" policy?
Well, IANAL, but you must know there was a time when everyone, as in EVERYONE, smoked. You couldn't go 10' without seeing a butt on the ground. Today? There are still pockets outside motels or buildings of smokers, but not so much indoors. So can you fire someone for smoking on their on time?

https://www.employmentlawfirms.com/l...r-laws-smoking

This says, it depends upon the state law. States have different laws on this. So I guess, the answer is ... "it depends".

Remember, the hospital worker is in a special situation. People are ill. It might be in the interest of society for them to have a shot. Don't school children required to get their shots before going to public school? What's the difference?

Don't dogs be required to get rabies shots? What's the difference? The greater societal harm for not getting the shots overrides the individual needs.

Don't want to have your dog get a rabies shot? Don't buy a dog.
Don't want your child to have shots? Home school them.
etc.
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Old 12 December 2017, 07:48 AM   #76
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I'm not sure about your smoking analogy, because that only limits an employee's ability to smoke while at work, not after hours. The vaccine is more invasive, has extremely small but defined risks, and effects the employee at work and off duty indiscriminately.

Pets are a separate category, without constitutional rights, so I'd prefer not address that one.

Kids and school? Valid but not entirely consistent. States often have legal rights over minors that don't extend to adults. Still it merits consideration. I guess if the child was enrolled without the vaccine requirement and later informed to vaccinate or face expulsion, then your analogy holds. Imagine though, two months from graduation and your unvaccinated son/daughter is told for the first time that they won't be getting a diploma. You're good with this?


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Old 12 December 2017, 09:21 AM   #77
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I'm not sure about your smoking analogy, because that only limits an employee's ability to smoke while at work, not after hours. The vaccine is more invasive, has extremely small but defined risks, and effects the employee at work and off duty indiscriminately.

Pets are a separate category, without constitutional rights, so I'd prefer not address that one.

Kids and school? Valid but not entirely consistent. States often have legal rights over minors that don't extend to adults. Still it merits consideration. I guess if the child was enrolled without the vaccine requirement and later informed to vaccinate or face expulsion, then your analogy holds. Imagine though, two months from graduation and your unvaccinated son/daughter is told for the first time that they won't be getting a diploma. You're good with this?


I don't have time to look this all up but I think anybody who is an "at will" employee can be fired for any reason.

For smoking, look it up, in 20 states they can fire you for smoking, a new policy. 30 states have laws against it. You can google that too.

OK dogs aren't people
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Old 12 December 2017, 12:42 PM   #78
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I shake a lot of hands as I'm out often socially. I keep a small bottle of sanitizer in my truck and the breast pocket of my jacket.
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Old 12 December 2017, 02:49 PM   #79
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Door handles? Man, now you've just given me something else to worry about!

Handshakes, door handles, elevator buttons...

Back into my bunker until flu season's over
Don't forget escalator railing/handrail.

I shake hands whenever I need to. I don't worry about catching a flu because I shake hands with sick people...and I also wash my hands regularly with water and soap.
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Old 12 December 2017, 02:54 PM   #80
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I would never refuse a handshake but I DO warn people if I have a cold (if I have 'Flu I'm home in bed)
I was at a Real Estate Agency recently with Son buying his first house. At concluding handshakes I refused to use his pen and kept my distance.
I said "You might want to wash that hand as I have a bad cold". He did not appear worried but I felt I had done the right thing.
I always have disinfectant in the car and use it after shopping.
I am training myself to keep my hands away from my face - difficult.
Anyone over 60 is playing with fire if they do not take 'Flu season seriously as I regularly see people going to hospital with severe cases.
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Old 12 December 2017, 08:37 PM   #81
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Being a CPA I meet with many many folks Jan-April and I keep hand sanitizer on my desk I use it after every meeting because I shake most peoples hand unless I'm sick in which case I will politely decline a handshake saying I have a cold etc
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Old 12 December 2017, 11:15 PM   #82
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Last time I checked, I still had an immune system. Can get sick just by breathing air and a host of other things, so I still shake hands. In business, it just wouldn't be polite to not shake hands.
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Old 12 December 2017, 11:19 PM   #83
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From what I've been told, there's a highly effective vaccine for that. Maybe something to ask your doctor about.





Edit : https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/pne...lic/index.html
Thank you, Tony
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Old 12 December 2017, 11:58 PM   #84
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this thread is a real head scratcher.

if I had it my way, I would much prefer the good ole fist bump.

I won't deny a shake, under pretty much any circumstances as I dont want to offend anyone. But I have seen someone wipe their nose and then extend it for a shake. I shook his hand and literally went to the first bathroom I could find to wash.

Ultimately, it is a gross ritual, that I would prefer move towards the way of the bow. But I realize that is not going to happen.

So I will just keep washing my hands dozens of times a day.
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Old 13 December 2017, 12:13 AM   #85
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Always put my hand out to shake. Most sick people tell you in advance and then avoid it.
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Old 13 December 2017, 12:36 AM   #86
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Yes. I’ll shake hands without hesitation.
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Old 13 December 2017, 12:48 AM   #87
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this thread is a real head scratcher.
Great way to get folliculitis ... infection of the hair follicles.

Ever see a bald guy with a ring of blister-pimple-looking things on his head? Folliculitis. Wash 3x a day (your head!) with Hibiclens.

At a Christmas party Saturday after the usual round of shaking hands, I washed my hands. Still picked up a mini-bug. Clearing up nicely, thank you. Tea and rest.
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Old 13 December 2017, 02:51 AM   #88
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this thread is a real head scratcher.

if I had it my way, I would much prefer the good ole fist bump.

I won't deny a shake, under pretty much any circumstances as I dont want to offend anyone. But I have seen someone wipe their nose and then extend it for a shake. I shook his hand and literally went to the first bathroom I could find to wash.

Ultimately, it is a gross ritual, that I would prefer move towards the way of the bow. But I realize that is not going to happen.

So I will just keep washing my hands dozens of times a day.
Thank you Seth, you've summarized my same thoughts and experiences clearly and succinctly. I have begrudgingly accepted a hand after witnessing the same or worse, simply to avoid the appearance of incivility. It's such a reflex response to extend and receive the handshake, that we don't consciously stop to consider any consequence. I'm certain that no one deliberately intends to spread the flu.

Thanks again for your response. It's reassuring to know that I'm not completely alone; perhaps the most valuable derivative of this thread from my own selfish perspective.

As for the previous suggestions that one's immune system provides protection - while I have confidence in my immune system to do its job, I still don't always feel the need to test it.

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Old 13 December 2017, 09:52 AM   #89
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Yes I shake hands and at work many many times a day. At the gym I wipe down the cardio machines before and after I use them .
I was at the gym once when I saw a guy blow his nose and cough into a towel. He then hung the towel over the handle of a treadmill. I nearly puked!!
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