The Vintage Lesson You've All Heard About...

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by btinl

Is this the same watch that was sold directly by Rolliworks?

https://www.instagram.com/p/ByZRq6_H..._web_copy_link

Yes. It is. Thank you for pointing this out. Every last identifying mark and feature of these watches are identical upon further review.

Rolliworks sold this re-lumed watch!?!?!?!?!?!?

Wow.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by swish77

"Shouldn't matter or affect value"???? That's a ridiculous response, and highly inaccurate.

If this were me, I'd seek a full refund.

That is the way I'm leaning at the moment and, frankly, the longer it goes without hearing from the seller, the more that feels right (but probably the more difficult it becomes).

Thanks!

[btinl]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

Based on the hour markers, it could be. May be the light, but it does look like a different bezel insert...

I'm pretty sure it's just the lighting. The bezel insert has the same marks by the 40 and 30.

[Cloudchaser]

The vintage TRFers are amazing! The detective work that has both fleshed this problem out and, ultimately, isolated it to Rolliworks, is awfully impressive.

I cannot imagine that Rolliworks was disclosing the re-lume if they were trying to sell it for $21K+!!!

This makes me give the seller way more benefit of doubt (though not hearing from him in nearly 24 hours isn't helping); buying from Rolliworks SHOULD make matters like re-luming a non-consideration. But it clearly didn't. Rolliworks knowingly sold a re-lume. That buyer, in the dark, then turned and sold it to me.

I'd love to hear from anyone at Rolliworks on this one. May give them a call...

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by btinl

I'm pretty sure it's just the lighting. The bezel insert has the same marks by the 40 and 30.

Yes, indeed. I just pulled the watch from the safe to have a closer look and have NO DOUBT that this is the identical watch and was sold in this condition by Rolliworks in June.

I'm shocked that this was done by them. How would they not know???

[Sublovin]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

Yes, Rolliworks receipt was included and I knew about the case (and accepted it immediately). Because the receipt was included, I accepted that work as being the extent of it. And since the seller did not disclose it, and offered to stand by the watch as "100% authentic," I felt comfortable. And after talking on the phone extensively, and texting extensively, he has struck me as an honest person with whom this conversation can be had. So I am trying.

As for the time question, I would honor my own 96 hour window, for sure. After that, the only return/refund I would entertain would involve any authenticity/originality issues that were clearly present (even in retrospect) at time of sale. The issue of authenticity/originality is something I would view as a threat to both my reputation and my conscience. I would work with the buyer to fix things. And if they couldn't be fixed, I'd refund in full and (over) apologize. I write all of that after having given this all kinds of thought (probably too much).

As for the "outer limit," in normal circumstances I'd be subject to the terms of payment, where I would implicitly have agreed to the return terms by accepting whatever form of payment I had agreed to accept. That's the "technical" answer.

The less technical answer is that there would be no outer limit if the buyer returned with evidence that the adverse issue had existed when I sold it. If I ever sold a watch with authenticity/originality compromises, I would want to know and fix it ASAP. And I would be a bit anxiety-filled until I knew that everyone knew I had done the right thing.

But, again, all of these are good questions and fair points.

Thank you for weighing in!

Does a watch being relumed have anything to do with the watch being “authentic”?
That would be like saying a car that has been repainted is not authentic.
I also think that anyone who hangs on the “100% original” is foolhardy. There is no way for a watch dealer to know if authentic parts have been replaced with other authentic parts so long as they are correct.
As for the limit of recourse, you would have to think that there needs to be a limit. Do you even know if the seller knew that it had been relumed?
I think your situation is unfortunate, but this all seems like a bit of a stretch to me.


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[JustinK]

Originally Posted by btinl

Is this the same watch that was sold directly by Rolliworks?

https://www.instagram.com/p/ByZRq6_H..._web_copy_link

If it is I would question how it came to them and if they relumed it.....

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by Sublovin

Does a watch being relumed have anything to do with the watch being “authentic”?
That would be like saying a car that has been repainted is not authentic.
I also think that anyone who hangs on the “100% original” is foolhardy. There is no way for a watch dealer to know if authentic parts have been replaced with other authentic parts so long as they are correct.
As for the limit of recourse, you would have to think that there needs to be a limit. Do you even know if the seller knew that it had been relumed?
I think your situation is unfortunate, but this all seems like a bit of a stretch to me.


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In my opinion, a relumed watch is not authentic (Merriam Webster’s Dictionary agrees with me).

Part of the allure of a vintage watch is the patina. A major portion of the value of a watch is derived from the dial.


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[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by JustinK

If it is I would question how it came to them and if they relumed it.....

It is definitely the same watch. I have called Rolliworks to inquire.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Sublovin

Does a watch being relumed have anything to do with the watch being “authentic”?
That would be like saying a car that has been repainted is not authentic.
I also think that anyone who hangs on the “100% original” is foolhardy. There is no way for a watch dealer to know if authentic parts have been replaced with other authentic parts so long as they are correct.
As for the limit of recourse, you would have to think that there needs to be a limit. Do you even know if the seller knew that it had been relumed?
I think your situation is unfortunate, but this all seems like a bit of a stretch to me.


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All worthy considerations.

As for the "limit of recourse," that is, technically speaking, 6 months. While more than a month seems too much to some, the six month window is binding.

My preference is very much for the seller to do right by me, Rolliworks to do right by the seller, and this situation to be fairly put to rest, and I'm trying to go through that process amicably and fairly. That said, I'll also enforce the binding terms if need be.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by southtexas

In my opinion, a relumed watch is not authentic (Merriam Webster’s Dictionary agrees with me).

Part of the allure of a vintage watch is the patina. A major portion of the value of a watch is derived from the dial.


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Agreed all around. Rolex carefully placed the marker plots when the watch was manufactured. Any newly placed marker plots not placed by Rolex, or using authentic Rolex parts, are by definition not authentic.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Sublovin

Does a watch being relumed have anything to do with the watch being “authentic”?
That would be like saying a car that has been repainted is not authentic.
I also think that anyone who hangs on the “100% original” is foolhardy. There is no way for a watch dealer to know if authentic parts have been replaced with other authentic parts so long as they are correct.
As for the limit of recourse, you would have to think that there needs to be a limit. Do you even know if the seller knew that it had been relumed?
I think your situation is unfortunate, but this all seems like a bit of a stretch to me.


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If instead of a generic car, you were talking about a specific collectible car, then we know the answer; (even though I often hesitate to use the car/watch analogy) a restored collectible car is very different from an original collectible car.

[Sublovin]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

If instead of a generic car, you were talking about a specific collectible car, then we know the answer; (even though I often hesitate to use the car/watch analogy) a restored collectible car is very different from an original collectible car.

2 things

-there is a major difference between authentic and original. A relumed dial is authentic, but not completely original.
-if a seller of a vehicle knows of an issue, they are responsible for disclosing. If f an issue is later found that the seller was unaware of....probably a different story.

All my opinion and 3 cents. Good luck, and maybe stick with new watches, or at least ha e them checked out as soon as you receive them. This is why I stay away from overpriced vintage.

[Noonan]

Originally Posted by Sublovin

This is why I stay away from overpriced vintage.

Kinda unrelated but this is funny to read. Vintage prices are much more reasonable than they were 10 or so years ago. Back then vintage was FAR more in demand than new models.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Sublovin

2 things

-there is a major difference between authentic and original. A relumed dial is authentic, but not completely original.
-if a seller of a vehicle knows of an issue, they are responsible for disclosing. If f an issue is later found that the seller was unaware of....probably a different story.

All my opinion and 3 cents. Good luck, and maybe stick with new watches, or at least ha e them checked out as soon as you receive them. This is why I stay away from overpriced vintage.

Appreciated. The seller has stated that he did not know that it had been re-lumed. But the picture of the watch for sale by Rolliworks in June, the same exact watch, is identical.

That means that it went through Rolliworks only six or so months ago (for both service and subsequent sale). Based on Rolliworks' price for the watch at that time ($21,900), they were not disclosing the re-lume. So the person that sold it to me must have been relying on Rolliworks good reputation; surely Rolliworks would disclose such a thing? I can't imagine them not...until now.

To make matters worse, I have complete crickets from the seller at this point. I've pointed him to this thread, I've texted him with pictures, and I've included the recently discovered Rolliworks role. I haven't pressed him hard or been rude in any way; I even left yesterday's text thread open until he had a chance to review.

I've asked for a refund, though, which seems to have scared him off. I'll give him a bit more time, and talk to Rolliworks, before I move to enforce recourse.

I will update here when/if I know resolution.

Thank you again, everyone!

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Noonan

Kinda unrelated but this is funny to read. Vintage prices are much more reasonable than they were 10 or so years ago. Back then vintage was FAR more in demand than new models.

Perhaps even funnier...I'm selling watches from around 2000. Vintage or not?

Kidding...let's not get into that.

[Sublovin]

Originally Posted by Noonan

Kinda unrelated but this is funny to read. Vintage prices are much more reasonable than they were 10 or so years ago. Back then vintage was FAR more in demand than new models.

Unless we are talking bubble backs, which vintage Rolex were much more expensive 10 years ago? Red subs? Show me


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[Noonan]

Originally Posted by Sublovin

Unless we are talking bubble backs, which vintage Rolex were much more expensive 10 years ago? Red subs? Show me


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I more meant the disparity between buying vintage vs new. 10 years ago a Red Sub was probably similar to what it was today but you could also get a brand new SubC for below MSRP. Today, the price gap between the two is much smaller. Hell, Pepsi GMT new is just as expensive as many vintage 1675 pieces in today's market.

[Ashton_Horologist]

Let’s get one thing straight here. A re-lunes dial is authentic. If you don’t think so, you can have that argument with the customer that purchased the Rolex ‘Pink Stelline’. There is absolutely no question that watch isn’t authentic. To claim otherwise is absurdity.

A re-lume cannot be claimed as all original, and should always be disclosed. I’m not saying it is or it isn’t, just facts.

The fact a watch has a re-lumed dial doesn’t make it worthless, it just makes it worth less.

[roh123]

In general I hate if someone cames back later with complaints he/she should have noticed upon receival. There’s some kind of responsibility as a buyer. In this case the seller described it terribly and also guaranteed it widely. Then he just need to live with it. If he didn’t offer that guarantee I think the buyer just need to be more informed when buying a 19k piece from a private collector.

That said people should be honest but at some point a sale must become final.

I hope this works out for both parties.

[Cloudchaser]

It may not be inauthentic to watch fans, but technically speaking, non-Rolex parts/materials have been added to the watch and that does matter. A dried lume plot is a part of the watch. Adding or replacing that part makes it less than "100% authentic."

I'm not arguing that for hobby purposes we can't have our own opinions, but those plots are parts on the watch. Rolex would deem it inauthentic as it relates to servicing the dial and I would be forced to replace it for Rolex to work on it...

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by roh123

In general I hate if someone cames back later with complaints he/she should have noticed upon receival. There’s some kind of responsibility as a buyer. In this case the seller described it terribly and also guaranteed it widely. Then he just need to live with it. If he didn’t offer that guarantee I think the buyer just need to be more informed when buying a 19k piece from a private collector.

That said people should be honest but at some point a sale must become final.

I hope this works out for both parties.

In this particular case, by the payment terms, that point is six months after sale.

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by Ashton_Horologist

Let’s get one thing straight here. A re-lunes dial is authentic. If you don’t think so, you can have that argument with the customer that purchased the Rolex ‘Pink Stelline’. There is absolutely no question that watch isn’t authentic. To claim otherwise is absurdity.



A re-lume cannot be claimed as all original, and should always be disclosed. I’m not saying it is or it isn’t, just facts.



The fact a watch has a re-lumed dial doesn’t make it worthless, it just makes it worth less.

The definition of authentic is: of undisputed origin; genuine.


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[roh123]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

In this particular case, by the payment terms, that point is six months after sale.

He offered a six month return? Or what do you mean?

This should be easy. He either didn’t know what he was selling or he deliberately skipped saying it was recut and relumed. As he claims to be well-known and have lots of references I would expect him to know much better. With his guarantee he can’t refuse the watch back imho.

I still think you should read up a lot before buying 19k watches. You should have realized this the day you received the watch.

Are you a collector or are you buying/selling for profit?

[mitchie41]

Definitely follow up with Rolliworks on this one (and get the private seller to do the same) -- They previously worked on the watch and even listed it for sale.

One of the benefits of working with a dealer (over a private seller) is that you pay (a little) more, but they are ultimately responsible for their reputation and the customer's satisfaction.

There are many excellent dealers I have dealt with over the years. And most of them have fantastic reputations for a reason.

I once found out that a vintage watch I purchased from a dealer 2.5 years prior had a "funny" case (likely a re-case) when I was trying to trade it in for a different with being sold by a totally different dealer on another continent. I went back to the original dealer and they offered me a complete refund right away once I returned the watch.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by roh123

He offered a six month return? Or what do you mean?

This should be easy. He either didn’t know what he was selling or he deliberately skipped saying it was recut and relumed. As he claims to be well-known and have lots of references I would expect him to know much better. With his guarantee he can’t refuse the watch back imho.

I still think you should read up a lot before buying 19k watches. You should have realized this the day you received the watch.

Are you a collector or are you buying/selling for profit?

Not a collector, per se, but a watch lover and re-seller. As for profit, sometimes yes and sometimes no...

I did do reading (but also made a mistake). That, combined with the seller assurances and the payment terms (PayPal in part) made me comfortable proceeding.

The six months is per PayPal terms.

[roh123]

Just because Rollieworks doesn’t say it is relumed in the IG post doesn’t mean they didn’t tell the buyer. IG is not a sales platform and I am pretty much certain they would tell when a prospective buyer inquired. This is however not the big question here. That is the problem for the seller when he receives the watch back.

[southtexas]

@cloudchaser

This connection to Rolliworks, and the watch’s journey in such a short time, is intriguing. Did your seller buy it from Rolliworks, or was maybe Rolliworks acting as a broker to help sell the watch for your seller (while he endeavored to sell it himself as well)?


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[roh123]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

Not a collector, per se, but a watch lover and re-seller. As for profit, sometimes yes and sometimes no...

I did do reading (but also made a mistake). That, combined with the seller assurances and the payment terms (PayPal in part) made me comfortable proceeding.

The six months is per PayPal terms.

Not saying you shouldn’t get a refund but this is kind of the risk while doing business. Most dealers learn from similar mistakes. Be happy that you bought from someone offering this kind of guarantee. Normally a dealer would just need to sell the watch cheaper and live with the lesson and loss.

Your reputation is getting hurt here as well. It doesn’t look great if you build your business on Paypal claims just because you don’t know what you buy.

I hope this works out for you both.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by mitchie41

Definitely follow up with Rolliworks on this one (and get the private seller to do the same) -- They previously worked on the watch and even listed it for sale.

One of the benefits of working with a dealer (over a private seller) is that you pay (a little) more, but they are ultimately responsible for their reputation and the customer's satisfaction.

There are many excellent dealers I have dealt with over the years. And most of them have fantastic reputations for a reason.

I once found out that a vintage watch I purchased from a dealer 2.5 years prior had a "funny" case (likely a re-case) when I was trying to trade it in for a different with being sold by a totally different dealer on another continent. I went back to the original dealer and they offered me a complete refund right away once I returned the watch.

All valid, for sure, and I agree. To a certain extent, we who sell here ARE dealers in the language we use to sell. The seller in this case definitely presented his listing as dealer worthy and with dealer language.

I do the same, and would stand behind my watches accordingly.

Rolliworks should weigh in on this too. They have most definitely played an unfortunate role in this.