Home Renovation and Plaster Walls

[jfmiii]

We are embarking on a major renovation on the first floor of our home in our dining/kitchen/mudroom area. It will transform the home. I'm not thrilled about the costs but it needs to be done, we can afford it; it is what it is. We have made good progress over the past several months narrowing down the plan and meeting with contractors and designers. We are now between two firms; one a design-build and one with a kitchen design firm with their recommended contractor. Their contractor is quite good, does beautiful work, only subs out electrical and will not collect ANY payment until all work is completed to my satisfaction.

I'm including the original floor plan below (it isnt quite accurate but close enough) and the new floor plan. My home is a 1930s colonial with plaster walls throughout. I love the character of the walls but more importantly, I love the sound insulation of the walls. My basement underneath the kitchen and dining rooms is unfinished. Electrical/plumbing/gas is easily accessible. New plumbing will need to be added but I am fortunate that it is relatively simple. The design-build firm wants to rip down the plaster walls in the new kitchen on the walls of the L. They also would like to rip down the plaster ceiling. This would be replaced with drywall and insulated. The contractor with the kitchen design firm tells me that I can keep all my walls and ceiling. Because of the access underneath, he can fish electrical and plumbing. For overhead lighting, he can install recessed cans and electrical boxes for pendants without taking out the whole ceiling. There will be cuts and patchwork but the walls will remain in tact for the most part.

I have a written bid and scope of work from the design-build firm. I should have one from the other contractor next week. I am expecting there to be 20-30% difference between the two with the design-build firm being more expensive. Has anyone done a renovation of this scale in an old home with plaster walls and saved the walls/ceiling?

Current Floor Plan


New Floor Plan

[JasoninDenver]

It is feasible to keep the plaster walls if they are roughly finished.

However, I personally always rip everything down to the studs and joists in my remodels as I prefer starting from a clean slate. Sometimes you find some weird stuff (i.e., dangerous wiring) buried in walls from work done over the life of the house.

[Blansky]

Originally Posted by JasoninDenver

It is feasible to keep the plaster walls if they are roughly finished.

However, I personally always rip everything down to the studs and joists in my remodels as I prefer starting from a clean slate. Sometimes you find some weird stuff (i.e., dangerous wiring) buried in walls from work done over the life of the house.

Agree. What hides in them thar walls could be an issue down the road.

Down to the studs and start fresh.

[Tools]

If the house has historical value, then lathe and plaster retains that part, just like era-correct parts on your Roles. Some good companies will also chop fiberglass strand to add to the plaster to simulate the original horse hair structure.

Depends on if you choose restoration or renovation, and if the house is worth going the restoration w/modernization upgrades route.

Again, like watches, flippers do it cheap and fast; a true craftsman does it right.

[jfmiii]

Originally Posted by Tools

If the house has historical value, then lathe and plaster retains that part, just like era-correct parts on your Roles. Some good companies will also chop fiberglass strand to add to the plaster to simulate the original horse hair structure.

Depends on if you choose restoration or renovation, and if the house is worth going the restoration w/modernization upgrades route.

Again, like watches, flippers do it cheap and fast; a true craftsman does it right.

This is sort of my line of thinking. The plaster walls--their character and benefits--were a selling point for us. That said, the new dining room will be wallpapered. One wall will be opened in the new kitchen and 2 others will have cabinets, appliances, and tile on them.

[Tools]

Originally Posted by jfmiii

This is sort of my line of thinking. The plaster walls--their character and benefits--were a selling point for us. That said, the new dining room will be wallpapered. One wall will be opened in the new kitchen and 2 others will have cabinets, appliances, and tile on them.

All the new plumbing and electrical go in before the lath/plaster or drywall/texture. Then that goes up before cabinets and appliances.

Cost difference will be labor and materials for plaster work vs texture. If the home is worth more than a million or two, I would bite the bullet and go first class.

If it's a summer home or in a middle-class neighborhood it might not make sense to spend the extra. Future value or value retention investment for some homes and neighborhoods is money well spent.

[JasoninDenver]

Originally Posted by Tools

All the new plumbing and electrical go in before the lath/plaster or drywall/texture. Then that goes up before cabinets and appliances.

Cost difference will be labor and materials for plaster work vs texture. If the home is worth more than a million or two, I would bite the bullet and go first class.

If it's a summer home or in a middle-class neighborhood it might not make sense to spend the extra. Future value or value retention investment for some homes and neighborhoods is money well spent.

Lathe and plaster here in Denver is hardly ever done anymore (even in multi million historical homes) as, even in our dry climate, it take 2-3 weeks at a minimum to finish the walls as opposed to 3-4 days with drywall. Plus, the cost can be 5-10x.

[austinp]

If you decide to keep the plaster I would definitely ask the contractor if you can see some of his plaster repair work on prior projects. It’s a bit of a lost art and very challenging to blend new repairs with old.


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[996marty]

I’d be seeing if they can chase the original walls to run services through it and then patch it back up. And once repaired it’ll be as good as new

[1st amg]

We run through this a lot. We will remove down to the studs. When doing major home renovations, you are opening cans of worms.....everywhere. You try saving this and try saving that, in the end, it is easier and more efficient to start from scratch. Rip down to the studs. You can spray foam all the studs then add insulation and it will be soundproof. As far as retaining the plaster and lathe for resale purposes, I do not think you will gain much in the price delta. The big problem with trying to save the plaster on a major renovation is humidity. Plaster hates humidity. When opening and removing sections, the plaster will not be as "air tight" and humidity will creep in and you will start to notice plaster pops moving forward. This is what we run into. Good luck, keep us posted and post pics through the renovation. Many here on TRF love to follow this sort of thing!

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by 1st amg

We run through this a lot. We will remove down to the studs. When doing major home renovations, you are opening cans of worms.....everywhere. You try saving this and try saving that, in the end, it is easier and more efficient to start from scratch. Rip down to the studs. You can spray foam all the studs then add insulation and it will be soundproof. As far as retaining the plaster and lathe for resale purposes, I do not think you will gain much in the price delta. The big problem with trying to save the plaster on a major renovation is humidity. Plaster hates humidity. When opening and removing sections, the plaster will not be as "air tight" and humidity will creep in and you will start to notice plaster pops moving forward. This is what we run into. Good luck, keep us posted and post pics through the renovation. Many here on TRF love to follow this sort of thing!

Great advice from someone who actually so does the work ^^^

EDIT: not that the other opinions expressed here are wrong

[jfmiii]

Appreciate everyone's thoughts. Lot to think about. It is all pretty overwhelming for someone who has never done this before. But it has been a valuable learning experience. I feel like I know more about construction and electrical and plumbing than I ever thought I would.

[JasoninDenver]

Originally Posted by brandrea

Great advice from someone who actually so does the work ^^^

EDIT: not that the other opinions expressed here are wrong

Certainly not!

My knowledge in this field comes from screwing up dozens of my own projects.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by JasoninDenver

Certainly not!

My knowledge in this field comes from screwing up dozens of my own projects.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jfmiii]

Appreciate everyone's responses. Have a lot to think about.

For those who have done this, what is reasonable for very good quality cabinets.

I am being quoted a bit over $50k for Dutch Made (Amish made in Indiana) and ~$70k for Crystal Cabinets for the above floor plan, pantry included. The Crystal quote seems really high. But maybe it isnt. I've heard Crystal are premium cabinets but some of the reviews on Houzz give me pause. Does anyone have experience with these? I can also go Decora semi-custom for ~$40k. They were nice but the Dutch Made and Crystal definitely seemed nicer. Any thoughts appreciated!

[Mccall86]

Agree with others- down to the studs. You never know what surprises you will find with an old house - speaking from experience

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by jfmiii

Appreciate everyone's responses. Have a lot to think about.

For those who have done this, what is reasonable for very good quality cabinets.

I am being quoted a bit over $50k for Dutch Made (Amish made in Indiana) and ~$70k for Crystal Cabinets for the above floor plan, pantry included. The Crystal quote seems really high. But maybe it isnt. I've heard Crystal are premium cabinets but some of the reviews on Houzz give me pause. Does anyone have experience with these? I can also go Decora semi-custom for ~$40k. They were nice but the Dutch Made and Crystal definitely seemed nicer. Any thoughts appreciated!

I've done it all the ways described and there is no advantage in keeping the older plaster. It's way too much work to cut and splice or reproduce the original materials un less the plan is extremely well thought through and a clear outcome is in place.
I vote for taking it down to the studs.
That way there are no nasty surprises with plumbing or wiring and with renovations there is nearly always something of some kind unexpected. As they say, " that's renovation".
Down to the studs enables one to put things right(including studs if tiling up the wall in wet areas with larger format tiles) and add insulation as required, update and add wiring/power outlets or run data cables which is more reliable than WiFi anyday.
If one needs to retain ornate details or plaster cornice put the money you save going down to the studs into that.
There's only one exception to stripping the walls down.
That is with a house which is likely built on reactive soil as
the older horse hair plaster is naturally more resilient with regard to the building moving around in wet and dry periods.
It's entirely dependent on the site and the building, but it's a little heartbreaking to put the time and effort and emotion into a reno and then to get cracks later on in drywall joints because the building moves around more than anticipated. In case of that possibility, i nearly always set the joints on Drywall sheeting with Wet Area Base coat and Fibre fuse tape as a precaution.
We are currently doing a reno where the building is moving around and cracks hav appeared where there were never any before for well over 20 years. Why?
Because there has been new development around the property and the building codes have changed, part of which revolves around the better control of storm water and it's sloping ground with us on the lower side.
In sumnary, my thoughts on it are that our ground is drying out and shrinking which is causing our building to move around more than it ever did since it was built.
There's nothing we can do about it except adapt where we can as there seems to be a new equibrilium with our building so it's time to put up some new Drywall and get the Wet Area Base Coat out and rolls of Fibrefuse tape and hope we can sort it out for good with thicker/stronger Dryall sheeting which will make the place quieter as a bonus.

[JasoninDenver]

I actually ran a residential cabinetry division of a high end custom millworks shop in a former life.even designed over 50 kitchens. What I can tell you is that semi -custom is the best way to go for nearly every application.

In fact, nearly every custom application will use the nearly all the exact same boxes, hardware and features of high end off the shelf cabinets. The only difference may be that some spaces will use an exact width cabinet down to the 1/4” whereas all other grade will come in 2-3” width increments and make the difference with filler or trim strips. The other difference is in finishes. Most large cabinet manufacturers have stock finishes that will work for 99% of users. But if you need to match the color of granny’s flower vase, then custom.

Another reason to go custom is for unusually tall or short users who may benefit ergonomically from non-standard heights. However, most installers can simply increase the height of a semi custom or even stock cabinet by installing a taller base frame underneath.

Talk with a good semi custom shop and ask about features. In reviewing your floor plan, I noticed a blind corner cabinet between the stove and sink. This is a very old and outdated design unless they are installing a high end cabinet slide system that accesses all interior space. Some semi custom manufacturers now offering an option that we installed as a custom job. I will attach a photo.

Now….. we went full custom on our last remodel for several reasons: (1]my wife, (2) my wife and (3) my wife. Nothing she could ask for could not have been met 95% with semi- custom but she was set of the kitchen of her dream including the exact shade of blue. We over paid 25% or so and the custom shop screwed up several things that should not have happened even in a Home Depot kitchen.. However, we were behind schedule and could not get it done the way I wanted it in time.

We live a neighborhood of $2-10m homes. In even the most expensive homes I have been in where they brag about their”custom cabinets” I see they are semi custom with the only difference being the more ornate trim pieces as the home prices go up.

If you would like specific design tiips, feel free to pm.

[Boopie]

I just finished a major remodel of my 90+ year old home. The kitchen and downstairs powder room were last done in the 1980s, so it was time. I did nearly the entire downstairs of my home. The cheapest homes in my neighborhood are $2m, so materials and labor are expensive, and people typically do full custom remodels. Many of my neighbors have vacated their houses altogether for a total top to bottom remodel that takes over a year.

I kept just one of the lathe and plaster walls, because it had a vintage built in there, but of course did full electrical and plumbing upgrades. My contractor has an excellent plaster sub who put hand-done vintage style texture to the walls. So, you can’t distinguish the new walls from the existing wall.

We knocked out all floors and ceilings.

Full custom cabinets are the way to go. I’ve been wanting to do the remodel for over 20 years and had a ton of design ideas. It was very expensive, but the labor costs essentially the same, and the hardship and inconvenience are the same, regardless of whether you get cheap materials or top of the line. I had an architect, a designer, and of course a contractor. The job got done relatively quickly.

My thought is that I get to do one total kitchen remodel in my life, it’s going to be expensive and a pain in the butt, so I’m going to do it exactly how I want. I have zero regrets.

Just a tip for the upper cabinets. 12” is standard interior depth, but some cabinetmakers make them in such a way that the exterior dimensions are good, but you are short changed on the inside. 11” isn’t “good enough.” Make sure you measure them inside before accepting them.

The best contractors have the best subs…one reason for paying top $$ is to make sure the subs show up. Again, you will get it done relatively quickly. Being slow to pay is one reason some jobs take a year or more.

You can also never have too many new electrical outlets put in.

I love antiques, and my new kitchen looks very well integrated with the rest of the house. I didn’t touch my living room or formal dining room, and the newly remodeled rooms blend in very well. Vintage or period appropriate lighting, and well thought out hardware pieces such as knobs and pulls (I’m embarrassed to say how much time I spent) make a difference.

I did a lazy Susan pullout for a corner cabinet. It’s fantastic!

The entire kitchen was an indulgence, but the indulgence upon indulgence was the show-stopping, utterly gorgeous custom copper hood vent. Custom means you can order one without sharp corners AND is taller than anyone who would be cooking. Haven’t we all bumped our head on someone’s hood vent? Not in my house.

Anyway, I can go on about lessons and tips. I ordered and paid for all of my appliances while the architects were still in plan check, a full 2 months before demolition. The supply chain issues might be resolved now, but it still took 3 months for everything to arrive. By paying in advance, no other customer could swoop in and get them. I went to a high end appliance shop and had a single salesman work with me to order everything together. I kept all the appliances inside the house until they were needed. It’s important to order materials ahead of time, such as flooring, because stuff happens and you don’t want the project to grind to a halt because you don’t have the materials needed.

[1st amg]

Boopie.....do you have any pics before and after? Sounds like an intriguing project!

[Boopie]

Originally Posted by 1st amg

Boopie.....do you have any pics before and after? Sounds like an intriguing project!

Tons of photos. We kept the wood framing, which is rather high quality and thick. When the kitchen and bathroom are down to studs, you really have to trust your contractor!

A 1920s matchbook popped out of the kitchen wall! It was empty, so I guess the guys were smoking on the job back then. They tucked it behind a pipe.

It’s often easier to tear down a house and start over than remodeling an existing space. But, that’s not what we wanted to do, so getting functionality and coherent design within a house that was built in the Roaring 20s, is a fun challenge. I know people here are remodeling houses that were built after this last kitchen was done, in the 1980s.

[jfmiii]

Originally Posted by Boopie

I just finished a major remodel of my 90+ year old home. The kitchen and downstairs powder room were last done in the 1980s, so it was time. I did nearly the entire downstairs of my home. The cheapest homes in my neighborhood are $2m, so materials and labor are expensive, and people typically do full custom remodels. Many of my neighbors have vacated their houses altogether for a total top to bottom remodel that takes over a year.

I kept just one of the lathe and plaster walls, because it had a vintage built in there, but of course did full electrical and plumbing upgrades. My contractor has an excellent plaster sub who put hand-done vintage style texture to the walls. So, you can’t distinguish the new walls from the existing wall.

We knocked out all floors and ceilings.

Full custom cabinets are the way to go. I’ve been wanting to do the remodel for over 20 years and had a ton of design ideas. It was very expensive, but the labor costs essentially the same, and the hardship and inconvenience are the same, regardless of whether you get cheap materials or top of the line. I had an architect, a designer, and of course a contractor. The job got done relatively quickly.

My thought is that I get to do one total kitchen remodel in my life, it’s going to be expensive and a pain in the butt, so I’m going to do it exactly how I want. I have zero regrets.

Just a tip for the upper cabinets. 12” is standard interior depth, but some cabinetmakers make them in such a way that the exterior dimensions are good, but you are short changed on the inside. 11” isn’t “good enough.” Make sure you measure them inside before accepting them.

The best contractors have the best subs…one reason for paying top $$ is to make sure the subs show up. Again, you will get it done relatively quickly. Being slow to pay is one reason some jobs take a year or more.

You can also never have too many new electrical outlets put in.

I love antiques, and my new kitchen looks very well integrated with the rest of the house. I didn’t touch my living room or formal dining room, and the newly remodeled rooms blend in very well. Vintage or period appropriate lighting, and well thought out hardware pieces such as knobs and pulls (I’m embarrassed to say how much time I spent) make a difference.

I did a lazy Susan pullout for a corner cabinet. It’s fantastic!

The entire kitchen was an indulgence, but the indulgence upon indulgence was the show-stopping, utterly gorgeous custom copper hood vent. Custom means you can order one without sharp corners AND is taller than anyone who would be cooking. Haven’t we all bumped our head on someone’s hood vent? Not in my house.

Anyway, I can go on about lessons and tips. I ordered and paid for all of my appliances while the architects were still in plan check, a full 2 months before demolition. The supply chain issues might be resolved now, but it still took 3 months for everything to arrive. By paying in advance, no other customer could swoop in and get them. I went to a high end appliance shop and had a single salesman work with me to order everything together. I kept all the appliances inside the house until they were needed. It’s important to order materials ahead of time, such as flooring, because stuff happens and you don’t want the project to grind to a halt because you don’t have the materials needed.

I'd love to see pictures as well. Sound like we have a similar mindset. I am very conscientious about making the remodel flow with the rest of the home. Light fixtures, cabinet/sink hardware, molding, etc. I want them to blend into my home, not have some super modern kitchen that while nice by itself, sticks out within the confines of my 1930s home.

[Boopie]

OP, you are flipping the dining room and kitchen, and taking over the breakfast room too?

My house has a very small galley kitchen, because of course back in the day the servants did all of the cooking…for real…it did have a built-in dining nook area in addition to a formal dining room, which we use every day and is an awesome and, frankly, beloved feature of the house. So, I created a new one which is even nicer than the old.

My goal was to tease out as much room as possible. I have a very large house, but when I’d see real estate listing photos of much smaller houses, they all had larger kitchens. So, I knew I could do it, by more thoughtful and smart planning.

I was totally able to do it. I got more countertop space on both sides. The laundry area is off of the kitchen.i got more space from going from a side by side washer and dryer (how the house came) to getting an LG washtower (totally amazing and worth it).

Custom cabinets, definitionally, get you exactly what you want. Be assertive and clear about what you want. It’s based on how you live. I know a highly successful businessperson with an amazing, showcase kitchen (not that mine isn’t), but no one cooks in it. I cook on my cooktop twice a day. I don’t use my oven often, perhaps 5 times a month. So, I swapped out my cooktop plus separate wall oven configuration for a one piece, 6-burner, 36” Kitchen Aid professional range/oven, which is the smallest professional range that would fit in my galley kitchen. Those of you with over 40”, I envy you…the “rule of thumb” is that a hood vent is the same width as the cooktop. If you look at online photos of upper cabinets, you’ll see that they all snuggle up next to the hood vent. I, however, got really sick of my upper cabinets getting splashed with olive oil twice a day, and I didn’t see how I could keep a copper range clean on the sides with a snug fit with the cabinets. I hate dirty kitchens, and wipe everything down after every time cooking.

I went ahead and ignored convention, ordered a 38” wide copper hood, and then have at least another 1” distance from the hood vent to the cabinets. As indicated, I also ignored “guidelines” and made the vent taller than recommended. The gap with the uppers looks great, and I can keep everything clean. The painted upper cabinets don’t get constantly splashed with oil.

Every kitchen looks great when it’s done. The trick is, will it still look good 5 years after you use it? What is going to get dirty the most? What appliances do you use most? What are your must haves?

My neighbor is planning her kitchen remodel. She has a bad back, and bakes far more than I do. So, she’s going to go with a wall oven…just like I got rid of. That works for her.

Form follows function. The old adage is true. I make fresh coffee every day, so it makes sense to have the grinder, maker etc. all together, by the trash can to dump out the grounds, without any upper cabinets above them, because the escaping steam. In my old kitchen, the only place I could put the coffee equipment was below an upper cabinet and away from the trash. So, I found myself constantly moving the brewing machine in and out, and I had to carry the wet, used grounds over to the trash. Okay, not a big deal, but thinking how you use your kitchen is important. How often do you prep foods? Where do you do them? I wanted a six burner cooktop because when I’m cooking 3 or more things, my pots and pans don’t always fit in tandem, so three rows of burners lets me stagger them. Back in my college days, when I’d made a can of soup for myself and call it a meal, 4 burners was more than enough.

I also highly recommend quartz countertops, over marble and granite. Of course, if you’re like my friend who doesn’t cook much, this won’t matter. Go with the marble, but you’ll hold your breath every time someone puts a glass of red wine down on the counter (ask me how I know). I got a really nice light one with light brown veining, and decided to use the countertop material for my backsplash. No grout to clean…getting a countertop guy who knows this stuff is important, because the veining continues from the countertop up to the backsplash, in one line. I, again, didn’t cheap out, so I paid for something like four massive slabs, so each countertop is one big piece. No seams. If you see a kitchen done on more of a budget, and notice a lot of prominent seams, you can’t unsee it. So, asking your contractor how a slab will be cut and fitted, and where the seams will be, is important.

Again, way off topic, but if your contractor has a plaster sub who can put texture in walls, it makes all of the difference. Our same contractor did our master bath a few years ago, and the new textured plaster walls are fantastic. This house has been in quite a few earthquakes over the years, and previous owners had terrible plaster work done to cover the cracks. I had the contractor go over the old plaster repairs to add texture. It bugged me to look at an original textured wall, and then see haphazard smooth patches.

As an aside, design and architecture are passions of mine, totally separate from my “day job,” so I notice and care about a lot of details that most wouldn’t. I freely admit I’m very picky but, again, I get to do one total kitchen remodel in my life, and I didn’t want any regrets. A close relative did a major kitchen remodel on an even more expensive home, and cheaped out on flooring and knobs. It looked amazing when new, but every time you opened a cabinet or drawer, you felt the flimsy pulls. It looked like crap a few years later.

My husband is a tech guy, I tasked him with all of the electrical configuration and outlet needs. He asked for stuff I wouldn’t have thought of. He left the shape of the edge of the countertops to me. Eased edge, BTW.

[jfmiii]

Thanks Boopie that is helpful! We are flipping the rooms, opening up the doorway between them to about 8ft and making the current nook a walk-in pantry. It will transform the house!

The design has changed a touch; fridge moving back to corner by window on the opposite side of room where I originally had it. We are doing a wolf 36 and a speed oven in the island. My wife wanted the 48 with the smaller second oven but we just don’t have the room. Going with Taj Mahal quartzite for counters. I love marble but will never put it in a kitchen. Good call on the coffee maker! I’m going to ask my wife where she wants it. Maybe the pantry is the best place.