Relumed PCG 1675 dial

[pteryx]

What a shame, such a beautiful watch

https://www.instagram.com/p/CFkRyJNn...=11d3q2ylwle4z

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[spoont]

At least it‘s done nicely. But yeah always sad to see.


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[roh123]

Dial was already badly relumed so this looks great. Spectacular work by the relumer. The only issue is that it weren’t disclosed by the seller.

[springer]

They'll be a thread on this fraudulent sale soon.

To correct ROH, this was not "spectacular work." What it was is - a fraudulent lume job to fool a potential, unknowing and unsuspecting buyer.

Warnings have been placed on this forum and elsewhere for the past few years regarding these "re-manufactured" fraudulent watches being passed off as original. These warnings have fell on many deaf ears. Buying vintage gilts that appear new is ludicrous.

[Dan S]

With respect to these more desirable references, collectors are paying attention to every watch that comes to the market, so sellers should know better than to tamper with pieces that have been around for a while.

[SubKing]

Right now the attention is surprisingly on Michael Morgan who is a member here. I am really very shocked by all of this revolving around worldly watches and MM.. On the flip side, in the past, I have been mislead by a very known dealer and sold something to find out the hands were relumed. It was ultimately taken care of. I think the most important thing here is the buyer of this watch is getting his money back. I think we would all be surprised at what goes on in some circles of “elite collectors and dealers” trust takes years to build and only seconds to break. Such a shame and makes this even more scary for our hobby

[swish77]

Originally Posted by SubKing

Right now the attention is surprisingly on Michael Morgan who is a member here.

What's the issue involving Michael at Iconic Watches? I thought the GMT mentioned above concerned Stephane Medam at Worldly Watches, or was Michael also involved?

[btinl]

Originally Posted by swish77

What's the issue involving Michael at Iconic Watches? I thought the GMT mentioned above concerned Stephane Medam at Worldly Watches, or was Michael also involved?

Apparently Michael sold it to him but had previously purchased it from the original collector in the poorly relumed state.

[NOPDK]

Thank you for bringing this to light.

Doing things like this devalues our hobby.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by swish77

What's the issue involving Michael at Iconic Watches? I thought the GMT mentioned above concerned Stephane Medam at Worldly Watches, or was Michael also involved?

On insta, the new post is being said that Michael received this watch with a relumed dial, then sold it to Stephane with a new relume job. Stephane then sold it to the buyer.. All fishy.

[Gmt21]

Originally Posted by swish77

What's the issue involving Michael at Iconic Watches? I thought the GMT mentioned above concerned Stephane Medam at Worldly Watches, or was Michael also involved?

The story is unfolding on watchknut page on Instagram.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by springer

They'll be a thread on this fraudulent sale soon.

To correct ROH, this was not "spectacular work." What it was is - a fraudulent lume job to fool a potential, unknowing and unsuspecting buyer.

Warnings have been placed on this forum and elsewhere for the past few years regarding these "re-manufactured" fraudulent watches being passed off as original. These warnings have fell on many deaf ears. Buying vintage gilts that appear new is ludicrous.

I would any day of the week prefer a nice relume over a terrible. I can respect the skill that went into this. It looks great!

That said it should have been disclosed. That is the issue. No the relume.

[SubKing]

I really only know of one relumer in the world that I have seen do such amazing work. I'm not going to bring his name into this, but I am floored at the work he does and even mimics fast fade lume glow as well.

I need to see the watch in the flesh, however, this level of work in combination with a trusted dealer really wouldn't make me think twice..

[swish77]

Originally Posted by SubKing

On insta, the new post is being said that Michael received this watch with a relumed dial, then sold it to Stephane with a new relume job. Stephane then sold it to the buyer.. All fishy.

Does not sound good, of course, but I'd want all details, which I'll follow on IG.

If Michael only had the GMT re-lumed, that's fine, especially if the original re-lume job was badly done. The question is whether he tried to sell it to Stephane as an original (untouched) dial, which would surprise me a lot, for two reasons:

First, in my own experience, and in countless online comments/reviews, Michael has been above reproach. And secondly, someone as experienced as Stephane presumably would know whether the GMT had been re-lumed, whether he was informed or not.

[springer]

Originally Posted by roh123

Dial was already badly relumed so this looks great. Spectacular work by the relumer. The only issue is that it weren’t disclosed by the seller.

Yes, this was spectacular work to defraud someone. Nice to know where you stand ROH. As usual, I don't agree with you. The relume wasn't disclosed because it was strictly profit driven by someone misrepresenting the watch so it could be sold for thousands more without any regard for the hobby or collectors.

[springer]

Originally Posted by SubKing

I really only know of one relumer in the world that I have seen do such amazing work. I'm not going to bring his name into this, but I am floored at the work he does and even mimics fast fade lume glow as well.

I need to see the watch in the flesh, however, this level of work in combination with a trusted dealer really wouldn't make me think twice..

That's because he is using old tritium. Most know him as the LA connection.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by swish77

Does not sound good, of course, but I'd want all details, which I'll follow on IG.

If Michael only had the GMT re-lumed, that's fine, especially if the original re-lume job was badly done. The question is whether he tried to sell it to Stephane as an original (untouched) dial, which would surprise me a lot, for two reasons:

First, in my own experience, and in countless online comments/reviews, Michael has been above reproach. And secondly, someone as experienced as Stephane presumably would know whether the GMT had been re-lumed, whether he was informed or not.

It's a bit confusing. As to how I am interpreting the current situation, Stephane is claiming he received the watch with a "swapped dial" from Michael Morgan..

There seems to be a bit of finger pointing going on at the moment.

Another source has said that MM tried offering this watch for sale to the Asian market with unsuccessful sale, the watch ended up with Stephane.

Whether Stephane was in on it or not, it's all currently coming down to the fact that MM originally had the watch with the bad relume job and it left his possession with the enhanced relume

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by springer

Yes, this was spectacular work to defraud someone. Nice to know where you stand ROH. As usual, I don't agree with you. The relume wasn't disclosed because it was strictly profit driven by someone misrepresenting the watch so it could be sold for thousands more without any regard for the hobby or collectors.

That doesn’t mean the work done wasn’t excellent. That’s all ROH is saying. I didn’t read that he was defending the selling of it at all. Reluming a watch isn’t a crime. The non-disclosure is the issue. Where was ROH defending that?

[springer]

Originally Posted by SubKing

I know who you're talking about, but that's not who I'm talking about. The person I am referring to is located in Europe and it's the best work I have seen.

and yes, I am very aware of old tritium and radium paint still being used.

PS: John, don't PM me again to talk poorly about dealers who I respect. I don't like you. You should never PM me just to talk smack.. We aren't friends. Your arrogance offends me constantly on this forum.

It's nice to know where you stand.

Thanks for the kind comments. Your posts always provide me with a few chuckles for the day.

[springer]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

That doesn’t mean the work done wasn’t excellent. That’s all ROH is saying. I didn’t read that he was defending the selling of it at all. Reluming a watch isn’t a crime. The non-disclosure is the issue. Where was ROH defending that?

You are 100% correct Andy, reluming is not a crime. But the issue was reluming it to sell for a major profit without disclosing it and misrepresenting the lume as original is my point. What does "how nice the lume job looks" have to do with a relume to fraudulently increase the value of a watch for resale while misrepresenting the dial as original. I thought that was the point of this thread but maybe I am wrong.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by springer

Yes, this was spectacular work to defraud someone. Nice to know where you stand ROH. As usual, I don't agree with you. The relume wasn't disclosed because it was strictly profit driven by someone misrepresenting the watch so it could be sold for thousands more without any regard for the hobby or collectors.

So a nice job is more profit driven than a bad? :)

[Juhuatai]

Seems to me that even dealers that are highly respected can have faults. We always say buy the seller but this story has me worried. Michael Morgan is one of the most respected dealers. If he is in fact responsible for reluming the dial and trying to pass it off as original, can anyone be trusted???

[springer]

Originally Posted by SubKing

This is why I believe you are just nasty to the core, sending me an unsolicited nasty message. You are the last person I would ever ask for help. You’re a know it all and often wrong..

I can’t tell you how many dealers have told me they feel the same about you. You’re just impossible to deal with. You have something bad to say about everyone.

for the record, Shear never mislead me or did anything wrong to me. You were the only one bashing him and still do till this day

This will be my last comment to you since you have a problem with facts. I believe everyone, or almost everyone, in that thread about your Sub told you the watch was not unpolished. it just wasn't me.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by Juhuatai

Seems to me that even dealers that are highly respected can have faults. We always say buy the seller but this story has me worried. Michael Morgan is one of the most respected dealers. If he is in fact responsible for reluming the dial and trying to pass it off as original, can anyone be trusted???

I think if you are well educated enough on vintage and have the watch in hand, you know what to look out for. You can also always start a thread on TRF to get opinions if you are unsure. One of the benefits of the watch community

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by springer

This will be my last comment to you since you have a problem with facts. I believe everyone, or almost everyone, in that thread about your Sub told you the watch was not unpolished. it just wasn't me.

John, I'm pretty sure you were the lead instigator in that thread bashing Shear. You probably even went back to just re read it...

The fact that you even pull that out of thin air just to send me a nasty message when this thread clearly has nothing to do with Shear, goes to show just how you are.


Get a life man.

And like that Frozen song goes.. "let it goo let it gooo"...

[dannynrolex]

Originally Posted by springer

This will be my last comment to you since you have a problem with facts. I believe everyone, or almost everyone, in that thread about your Sub told you the watch was not unpolished. it just wasn't me.

Springer/Jp: Very tacky, poor form, and irrelevant to bring this up.

[Laserflorida]

I have bought 6 Rolexes from Springer and a bunch of parts. He has been nothing but excellent to deal with saved me a ton of money on watches I did not buy that had issues. He also helped me buy a few watches from other dealers. I would not trust anyone else at this point with vintage Rolex

[SubKing]

Here we go.. John is rounding up his squad for back up..

[SubKing]

I’m going to invite shear in on this discussion.. should have been done long ago.

[swish77]

What is still unclear, here or on IG, is whether Michael Morgan disclosed that the GMT was re-lumed when he sold it.

If he disclosed the re-lume when he marketed/sold the watch, he did nothing wrong, regardless of how Stephane advertised the watch when he re-sold it.

If Michael didn't disclose the relume when he marketed/sold the watch, that's really bad, obviously.

Until that part of this story is clarified, I'll reserve judgement.