GS Marketing - Food for thought

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by sinkholeninja

Japan is their home turf, it'd be worrying if they didn't do well locally. Other than a few upcoming micro brands, isn't GS the only option Japanese have when it comes to locally-manufactured high-quality/luxury time pieces?

Japanese luxury consumers can also buy every Swiss brand, too...they're all available alongside GS. The used Rolex and Omega market there is also huge. But my point was that they're doing very well with domestic sales, and don't need to rebrand in the hope that it might appeal to certain Western consumers. GS sells a lot of watches in Japan, and didn't even bother selling overseas till 2010.

[sinkholeninja]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Japanese luxury consumers can also buy every Swiss brand, too...they're all available alongside GS. The used Rolex and Omega market there is also huge. But my point was that they're doing very well with domestic sales, and don't need to rebrand in the hope that it might appeal to certain Western consumers. GS sells a lot of watches in Japan, and didn't even bother selling overseas till 2010.

I understand you point. However, they now strive to be a global brand and what worked well for them back home might not work as well on the global stage. Time will tell.

[Dsmith1974]

Originally Posted by sinkholeninja

I understand you point. However, they now strive to be a global brand and what worked well for them back home might not work as well on the global stage. Time will tell.

I think they can ride it out. Skoda was a laughing stock in Europe, eventually being bought out by VW. They kept the brand and people came round.

I think the same will happen to Seiko. They never used to import the best models but now they do. That message will spread in time, and there’s really no rush. I like things as they are.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DJ2020]

Well I'm glad GS exists, I really like them. I trust there quality and movements. Don't really care if there not commonly recognized. Sometimes a good thing. But I find some satisfying feeling wearing one. Knowing the quality, accuracy and can trust it to do it's job for a long, long time.

The price point offers one heck of a value at present. I don't care about titanium either, but really like the stainless versions and find the band more comfortable that Rolex. I really do. But that's just me. I will continue to buy GS in the future. In fact GS has made me rethink my collection.

[GB-man]

I’ve no issues at all with the Grand Seiko branding and frankly I find their logos to be better than most in terms of aesthetics.

I think they would benefit long term by cutting down on the skus but I don’t really care either way.

The bracelets are just fine for me it’s the end link fitment that irks me. Every one I’ve had you can see daylight between the endlink and inside of the lug. I prefer the tight tolerance of a Rolex or Tudor.

[duquephart]

Originally Posted by sinkholeninja

That’s true, but more than the material itself it’s the construction, specifically the clasp and the lack of micro adjustment, that bothered me the most.

Lots of watches don't have micro adjustment. I think some folks use this excuse to denigrade GS just for the sake of doing so. The power reserve as well. My Snowflake fits beautifully, is very comfortable and looks great. The workmanship and finishing blow many "luxury" watches away. Unlike the Rolex zombies that abound here I bought the watch I have to please myself rather than going the "look at me" route.

[sinkholeninja]

Originally Posted by duquephart

Lots of watches don't have micro adjustment. I think some folks use this excuse to denigrade GS just for the sake of doing so. The power reserve as well. My Snowflake fits beautifully, is very comfortable and looks great. The workmanship and finishing blow many "luxury" watches away. Unlike the Rolex zombies that abound here I bought the watch I have to please myself rather than going the "look at me" route.

I couldn’t get used to mine unfortunately, otherwise it was a beautiful piece.

[swish77]

Wow, the GS bracelet discussion again? How many guys buy a watch based solely on the bracelet?

Sure, if GS bracelets frequently fall apart or are super ugly, it would be a problem. But the bracelets are fine. Sturdy, handsome (usually) and definitely well made. A micro-adjustment would be nice, but is the lack of one really a deal-breaker on any watch? I don't get it.

As for branding, I don't see an issue. How hard is it to figure out Seiko and GS are two different companies with very different products? Anyone who wants to buy a watch in the GS price ranges will certainly know the difference the second they pick up one of the watches.

[Dsmith1974]

Originally Posted by swish77

Wow, the GS bracelet discussion again? How many guys buy a watch based solely on the bracelet?

Sure, if GS bracelets frequently fall apart or are super ugly, it would be a problem. But the bracelets are fine. Sturdy, handsome (usually) and definitely well made. A micro-adjustment would be nice, but is the lack of one really a deal-breaker on any watch? I don't get it.

As for branding, I don't see an issue. How hard is it to figure out Seiko and GS are two different companies with very different products? Anyone who wants to buy a watch in the GS price ranges will certainly know the difference the second they pick up one of the watches.

Agree. I bet the real issue is what percentage of people prepared to spend GS money, really want less well aware folks to recognise that fact. Comes down to cachet I guess.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[samson66]

Originally Posted by swish77

Wow, the GS bracelet discussion again? How many guys buy a watch based solely on the bracelet?

Sure, if GS bracelets frequently fall apart or are super ugly, it would be a problem. But the bracelets are fine. Sturdy, handsome (usually) and definitely well made. A micro-adjustment would be nice, but is the lack of one really a deal-breaker on any watch? I don't get it.

Well take somebody like me. I bought my first pre-owned Grand Seiko just a couple months ago. I love the watch. The polishing, the dial, the hands and indices are all impecable. But the one thing that gnaws at me is the bracelet.

There's no micro adjustment and it wears just a touch snug on me. Just enough that letting a mm or 2 out via a micro adjustment would make it perfect. So every time my wrist swells and I take it off for ten minutes to let my wrist breathe I'm reminded yet again that the bracelet is the weak point of the watch. In addition to the lack of micro adjustability it just feels flimsy to me and I'm not thrilled at the clasp design which causes the logo part of the clasp to sit well off center on my wrist.

So put that together and if I saved $6-8K to spend on a new watch am I going to buy another Grand Seiko or am I maybe going to look at another brand like Omega that has more robust bracelets with more sizing flexibility and on the fly micro adjustments. The problem is if the bracelet lacks in proper fit and luxuriousness it can spoil the whole wearing experience for the owner and prevent a good percentage of growth for the brand. At least these are my thoughts as a new owner.

[asiparks]

Originally Posted by Dsmith1974

Agree. I bet the real issue is what percentage of people prepared to spend GS money, really want less well aware folks to recognise that fact. Comes down to cachet I guess.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

^ This^

As changing the branding on the watch wouldn't materially alter the inherent quality, the only argument to change, or remove, "Seiko" from the dial comes from the fear that people won't recognize how much money your watch cost...

This argument: I won't buy a Grand Seiko because the bracelets aren't as good as Rolex - OK.
Then don't buy Rolex, because their bracelets aren't as good as IWC's bracelets, as they lack IWC's meticulously engineered link removal system allowing you to resize in 30 secs using a couple of toothpicks or paperclips. ( And IWC have external, push button micro adjustments )

Would micro adjustment be nice ? Sure. But if that's your deal breaker, then I'd argue you weren't genuinely that interested in the watch

[swish77]

Originally Posted by samson66

In addition to the lack of micro adjustability it just feels flimsy to me and I'm not thrilled at the clasp design which causes the logo part of the clasp to sit well off center on my wrist.

It sounds as if your bracelet is perhaps not sized properly in the first place. Why not just add a half-link? And if the clasp is off-center on the inside of your wrist, you might need to move a link or two from the 12 o'clock side to the 6 o'clock side, or vice-versa.

Here's a decent breakdown for some tips for adjusting GS bracelets:

https://www.plus9time.com/blog/2021/...eiko-bracelets

Again, a micro-adjustment would be great on GS bracelets. I'm all for it. But there are ways around it.

[samson66]

Originally Posted by swish77

It sounds as if your bracelet is perhaps not sized properly in the first place. Why not just add a half-link? And if the clasp is off-center on the inside of your wrist, you might need to move a link or two from the 12 o'clock side to the 6 o'clock side, or vice-versa.

Here's a decent breakdown for some tips for adjusting GS bracelets:

https://www.plus9time.com/blog/2021/...eiko-bracelets

Again, a micro-adjustment would be great on GS bracelets. I'm all for it. But there are ways around it.

Yes I agree that I could remove a half link, add a full link, and the watch would be more comfortable to wear right now. Then in a month or two when we get into winter I will need to remove a full link, add a half link to get it to fit better in the colder months. All of this would be completely avoidable if they would simply have any sort of micro adjustment. I don't mind the old style tooth pick method moving the spring bar in the clasp. I don't need the modern push button type. Just give me something! Know what I mean? I have visited that link in the past and I agree it is very informative.

As for the clasp, when you size this you are really centering the blade, not the logo stamped part of the bracelet. The blade is essentially the clasp. The "GS" part is just where the logo is printed. So if you center the blade to your wrist, as I have done nearly perfectly, the logo sits off to the side. Not a huge deal, and not the only brand that does this, but it still bugs me a bit. So you can center the blade for the best fit, or center the decorative part of the clap for the best look, but it's real hard to do both.

I actually started a thread about this when I first got the watch if you want to see what I'm talking about.

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=815977

[bonovox]

All I'll add is I own an SBGW231, it's unlike anything else I own. A keeper if there every was one. I don't follow what's going on with GS too closely currently so just my opinion. I"m a big fan of the brand and wish them well.

[sinkholeninja]

Originally Posted by bonovox

All I'll add is I own an SBGW231, it's unlike anything else I own. A keeper if there every was one. I don't follow what's going on with GS too closely currently so just my opinion. I"m a big fan of the brand and wish them well.

I was very interested in this reference until someone posted a QC issue on TRF to do with air bubbles forming under the crystal. Does your one have the same issue? It's a beautiful piece for sure.

EDIT: Found the thread and saw your reply as well stating that your watch doesn't have the same issue, which is great to hear. The thread in question: https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=762807

[DJ2020]

Originally Posted by samson66

Yes I agree that I could remove a half link, add a full link, and the watch would be more comfortable to wear right now. Then in a month or two when we get into winter I will need to remove a full link, add a half link to get it to fit better in the colder months. All of this would be completely avoidable if they would simply have any sort of micro adjustment. I don't mind the old style tooth pick method moving the spring bar in the clasp. I don't need the modern push button type. Just give me something! Know what I mean? I have visited that link in the past and I agree it is very informative.

As for the clasp, when you size this you are really centering the blade, not the logo stamped part of the bracelet. The blade is essentially the clasp. The "GS" part is just where the logo is printed. So if you center the blade to your wrist, as I have done nearly perfectly, the logo sits off to the side. Not a huge deal, and not the only brand that does this, but it still bugs me a bit. So you can center the blade for the best fit, or center the decorative part of the clap for the best look, but it's real hard to do both.

I actually started a thread about this when I first got the watch if you want to see what I'm talking about.

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=815977

Yes Mike, I know exactly what your referring to, and it certainly can be frustrating. My wrist are, well odd shaped I guess. Flat on top but think on the outside and thin on the inside. A cross section would resemble a egg shape. But as such everything lines up well. But for someone with perfect symmetry the GS is off center. But keeps the clasp from rubbing on table tops on the bright side. On my Omega's I end up with a very short strap length on the 6 o'clock side to center it., same for Rolex.

Oddly, they only bands that fit perfectly as far as centering is a butterfly clasp. Which is usually my least favorite. I have several Tissot's that have them.

Would be nice if something could be engineered to look good and be easier to adjust.

[airchitect]

So….. Seiko Epson (might as well throw the printer portion in the mix) in one way shape or form produces low end, entry level, mid tier, and high end watches. All basically under the same name. The question here isn’t about how good and neato a bunch of wis think the watches are. That’s irrelevant. The question is can they market to their intended audience, which isn’t just a bunch of watch nerds. And, to do so, what must happen? From my perspective the way they do things fits everything I know to be true about the thought process of a Japanese organization (been in one for 9yrs). Dead on. A fixation on little details without a vision of the bigger picture. These watches exude Japanese. High quality, delicate bracelets, the fact that someone name Masakatsu hand finished the underside of the sword hands to a perfect finish…. That part is all there. What’s completely missing is the luxurification (my new word can’t use it without expressed written consent) of the brand…. If LV was a spin-off of Dooney and Bourke would anyone want that sh1t? Nope. Only the purse nerds. This is all about branding and vision or lack thereof.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[samson66]

Originally Posted by DJ2020

Yes Mike, I know exactly what your referring to, and it certainly can be frustrating. My wrist are, well odd shaped I guess. Flat on top but think on the outside and thin on the inside. A cross section would resemble a egg shape. But as such everything lines up well. But for someone with perfect symmetry the GS is off center. But keeps the clasp from rubbing on table tops on the bright side. On my Omega's I end up with a very short strap length on the 6 o'clock side to center it., same for Rolex.



Oddly, they only bands that fit perfectly as far as centering is a butterfly clasp. Which is usually my least favorite. I have several Tissot's that have them.



Would be nice if something could be engineered to look good and be easier to adjust.

Exactly. I have been blessed (or is it cursed) with nearly perfectly oval wrists. Guess I should be a wrist model LOL - think George Costanza. Anyway not to derail the thread but pictured below are my SD43 and SBGA001. Both blades nice and centered to my wrist but due to the small decorative part of the GS clasp being at the very end of the blade, it makes it sit way off center. The SD43 with its large divers clasp doesn't have the issue because the clasp spans nearly the entire length of the blade. Neither is "wrong" it's just a different design. Definitely a lot of arguments FOR this design too since it keeps the clasp smaller and less bulky, more dressy. Agree that butterfly clasps make it sit nice and centered and probably looks the best on the wrist, but aren't the most comfortable.

Again it bugs me but not a huge deal. The lack of micro adjustment is the my biggest issue with the GS bracelet and it's obviously a common complaint.





Sent from my Galaxy S20 using Tapatalk

[swish77]

Originally Posted by samson66

Yes I agree that I could remove a half link, add a full link, and the watch would be more comfortable to wear right now. Then in a month or two when we get into winter I will need to remove a full link, add a half link to get it to fit better in the colder months. All of this would be completely avoidable if they would simply have any sort of micro adjustment.

I think you'd be better off just adding a half link in warmer months and then removing a half link in cooler months. Simpler approach.

Any brand that doesn't make a bracelet with micro-adjustments (e.g. Patek, AP, some Omega) will have this same issue. It's not just GS, although that doesn't make it OK, of course.

[samson66]

Originally Posted by swish77

I think you'd be better off just adding a half link in warmer months and then removing a half link in cooler months. Simpler approach.

Any brand that doesn't make a bracelet with micro-adjustments (e.g. Patek, AP, some Omega) will have this same issue. It's not just GS, although that doesn't make it OK, of course.

You may be right, I won't know until I try. I'm thinking the 3.5mm difference between the half link and full link may be just right. It's that close. Just a tiny bit more room to breathe is all I need.

Maybe this will help me build up the courage to try it myself at some point. But damn those screws are tiny

I still love the watch, I would just love it a little MORE if there were some upgrades to the bracelet

[DJ2020]

Originally Posted by samson66

You may be right, I won't know until I try. I'm thinking the 3.5mm difference between the half link and full link may be just right. It's that close. Just a tiny bit more room to breathe is all I need.

Maybe this will help me build up the courage to try it myself at some point. But damn those screws are tiny

I still love the watch, I would just love it a little MORE if there were some upgrades to the bracelet

Nice photos, My bands are severely lop sided compared to yours. Must be nice.

The rep at the watch show last night told us some useful stuff about GS bands and the swatch group said the same about there butterfly clasp. Stated that a half link is actually a little longer than a half. Meaning that if your band is just a touch tight, take out a full link and add two half links. works perfect. Same if it's to loose, remove two half links and add a full link. Also works on the Agua terra. I shifted the links on my GS and it is a very comfortable fit. A little loose when cold and not to tight when working out. And my wrist swell a lot. The difference wont shift the clasp much one way or the other.

[DJ2020]

Mike, here is a picture of mine I'm wearing today

[Dsmith1974]

I’m certain that Seiko are justifiably proud of their name. The idea of removing it to appease a few ignorant westerners is not one I imagine they’d take lightly. And neither should they.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[samson66]

Originally Posted by DJ2020

Mike, here is a picture of mine I'm wearing today

Thanks. I see what you mean. Curious to see the configuration on your GS. If you get a chance upload a pic for me.

Sent from my Galaxy S20 using Tapatalk

[DJ2020]

Originally Posted by samson66

Thanks. I see what you mean. Curious to see the configuration on your GS. If you get a chance upload a pic for me.

Sent from my Galaxy S20 using Tapatalk

Will do, it will be about 3 hours, But I certainly will.

[DJ2020]

Originally Posted by samson66

Thanks. I see what you mean. Curious to see the configuration on your GS. If you get a chance upload a pic for me.

Sent from my Galaxy S20 using Tapatalk

Mike, this is pictures of my GS you asked for. Wrist is 7 1/8 Btw.

[samson66]

Originally Posted by DJ2020

Mike, this is pictures of my GS you asked for. Wrist is 7 1/8 Btw.

That's nearly the exact setup I have. I think I have one extra half link on the 12 side.

So your clasp head (or whatever it's called) is also skewed over to the six side quite a bit. But due to your wrist shape it's not as far off when worn as mine. Interesting....

Sent from my Galaxy S20 using Tapatalk

[DJ2020]

Yes, it looks like no matter what you do or your setup, the saddle may be correct, but the clasp will always be off center. So your absolutely correct.

[Locust]

Always back to the bracelet. No matter what. AP has zero micro adjustment. Not a single peep over there. Sigh…..
And I own both. Just in case you were wondering

[Locust]

I honestly can’t say a thing to GS marketing. I’m so deep in the watch world no way I could be objective.