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jamesthejeweller · 20 April 2020, 04:43 AM

I wanted to get a pulse on the general feeling from TRF members about Rolex ADs and whether or not anyone has had negative experiences over the last decade (or whatever frame of reference individuals have)

My thoughts around this subject have been piqued recently with news from India and China (Hong Kong) about AD collusion with gray market dealers, I have witnessed and experienced AD collusion with a gray market dealer (one of the biggest) in the UK and what they said to me when I called them out on this dodgy behavior in store has truly damaged my faith in ADs and their ability to resist the temptation to get greedy.

I left the UK in 2018 for a more favorable tax situation and better climate and my new local AD is about as honest and good as they come; no package deals, spending minimums, premiums or discretionary waiting lists, they do things by first come first serve basis which is really quite refreshing.

But is it time we outed these bent ADs?

Below is a summary of what my previous UK AD said to me in 2018 after being on a BLNR wait list since the launch of the MK1 BLNR.

1. (AD) "...We don't keep waiting lists any more..."
(ME) "...but I've been on a 'wait list' with you since 2015..."

2. You need to spend a minimum of £100k to be put onto a "favorable" wait list and you may get this piece within 12 months

3. (AD) "...You can have the next BLNR that comes in, but you need to pay 30% premium and we retain the guarantee card so you can't sell it..."
(ME) "... I might as well buy one at full premium with guarantee card from (insert major gray dealer name here) and not have to wait at all.."
(AD) "...yes you can do that, but we have a very close relationship with (gray dealer) and we'll tell them not to sell anything to you and we will blackball you.."

4. Our boutique owner (eponymous Rolex AD) makes the decisions on who gets what and when

I may have said something rude at this point and I left quite quickly, I really can't remember, but I have not been back to these guys since.

The point I want to convey is that, there are confirmed cases of AD collusion in India and China, but this issue as been going on in the UK and I can guess the US and Europe also since Rolex started booming.

Do we need to 'out' these ADs? Where does the community stand on this subject?

Best
J

kieselguhr · 20 April 2020, 04:53 AM

Their inventory, their property. Their business model is not my problem.

If I don’t like the way an AD conducts business, I’ll just go find one that do I like.

GenevaFan · 20 April 2020, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesthejeweller

I wanted to get a pulse on the general feeling from TRF members about Rolex ADs and whether or not anyone has had negative experiences over the last decade (or whatever frame of reference individuals have)

My thoughts around this subject have been piqued recently with news from India and China (Hong Kong) about AD collusion with gray market dealers, I have witnessed and experienced AD collusion with a gray market dealer (one of the biggest) in the UK and what they said to me when I called them out on this dodgy behavior in store has truly damaged my faith in ADs and their ability to resist the temptation to get greedy.

I left the UK in 2018 for a more favorable tax situation and better climate and my new local AD is about as honest and good as they come; no package deals, spending minimums, premiums or discretionary waiting lists, they do things by first come first serve basis which is really quite refreshing.

But is it time we outed these bent ADs?

Below is a summary of what my previous UK AD said to me in 2018 after being on a BLNR wait list since the launch of the MK1 BLNR.

1. (AD) "...We don't keep waiting lists any more..."

(ME) "...but I've been on a 'wait list' with you since 2015..."

2. You need to spend a minimum of £100k to be put onto a "favorable" wait list and you may get this piece within 12 months

3. (AD) "...You can have the next BLNR that comes in, but you need to pay 30% premium and we retain the guarantee card so you can't sell it..."

(ME) "... I might as well buy one at full premium with guarantee card from (insert major gray dealer name here) and not have to wait at all.."

(AD) "...yes you can do that, but we have a very close relationship with (gray dealer) and we'll tell them not to sell anything to you and we will blackball you.."

4. Our boutique owner (eponymous Rolex AD) makes the decisions on who gets what and when

I may have said something rude at this point and I left quite quickly, I really can't remember, but I have not been back to these guys since.

The point I want to convey is that, there are confirmed cases of AD collusion in India and China, but this issue as been going on in the UK and I can guess the US and Europe also since Rolex started booming.

Do we need to 'out' these ADs? Where does the community stand on this subject?

Best

J

The time is Now! You owe them nothing and they are not playing by the ethical rules of retail sales. Fellow enthusiasts deserve to know who not to patronize.

Sent from my LM-Q710.FGN using Tapatalk

jamesthejeweller · 20 April 2020, 04:56 AM

What happens when they all start being bent and there are NO honest dealers left...

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kieselguhr · 20 April 2020, 05:00 AM

5 years ago, this “gray dealer collusion” was the only way these ADs could survive because the same people complaining about it today prefered to buy at huge discounts from the very same “evil gray dealers” you speak of rather than buy new at an AD.

Nairn1980 · 20 April 2020, 05:00 AM

As above, if you don't like how one works, try another.
However most of them will sell the sought after models to preferred customers. Chronological waiting lists really do not exist anymore and you will need to spend money regularly with an AD to get the "hot models". (There are exceptions of course)

WatchEater666 · 20 April 2020, 05:00 AM

ADs have turned me off the brand completely. I just buy from greys or used because they appreciate my business. I have no problem with ADs allocating however they'd like, but their lack of honesty is a real turnoff.

Bigblu10 · 20 April 2020, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesthejeweller

What happens when they all start being bent and there are NO honest dealers left...

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

Who cares what happens? Does it affect your life in any significant way? Businesses are free to do whatever they wish. They will reap what they sow.

jamesthejeweller · 20 April 2020, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kieselguhr

5 years ago, this “gray dealer collusion” was the only way these ADs could survive because the same people complaining about it today prefered to buy at huge discounts from these very “evil gray dealers” you speak of rather than buy new at an AD.

I'm sorry but that's not true, the PE fund I am involved with owned 10 or so ADs from mid 90s to 2014 when we exited from the business.

The only time Rolex ADs struggled with sales was in the late 60s and quartz crisis.

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Swiss Mad! · 20 April 2020, 05:19 AM

No.3: Did a Rolex AD REALLY tell you they were working hand in hand with a grey dealer and they had so much hold over said grey dealer that they could actually instruct/prevent them from selling you a watch????

Im sorry OP, I dont want to disbelieve what your saying but that sounds like something straight out of a movie scene & pure fantasy on the part of the AD's SA

Even if they were working alongside a grey, they would want to keep it on the lo lo, so I would be extremely surprised if they openly admitted it to a potential customer.

kieselguhr · 20 April 2020, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesthejeweller

I'm sorry but that's not true, the PE fund I am involved with owned 10 or so ADs from mid 90s to 2014 when we exited from the business.

The only time Rolex ADs struggled with sales was in the late 60s and quartz crisis.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

You don’t say...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile..../idUSKBN17E2E8

jamesthejeweller · 20 April 2020, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swiss Mad!

No.3: Did a Rolex AD REALLY tell you they were working hand in hand with a grey dealer and they had so much hold over said grey dealer that they could actually instruct/prevent them from selling you a watch????

Im sorry OP, I dont want to disbelieve what your saying but that sounds like something straight out of a movie scene & pure fantasy on the part of the AD's SA

Even if they were working alongside a grey, they would want to keep it on the lo lo, so I would be extremely surprised if they openly admitted it to a potential customer.

100%, I've sat on this for a while, the conversation I had where this bizarre exchange occurred was between an assistant salesperson and not the head honcho of the AD, who was not there at the time, now whether this was Napoleon bravado from an inexperienced salesperson or not is yet to be seen, but this is exactly what happened.

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Milsub114060 · 20 April 2020, 05:25 AM

Everyone’s at this let be honest and everyone knows it too or rather they were and now no one is going to be paying dumb prices at all ever

jamesthejeweller · 20 April 2020, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kieselguhr

You don’t say...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile..../idUSKBN17E2E8

I'm not sure what your point is? I don't have an issue with grays per se, I'm more flabbergasted at the willfull collusion from ADs that circumvents the B2C purpose of an AD and diverts the supply chain from AD to gray dealer at premium.

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Soondooboo · 20 April 2020, 05:30 AM

The worst of it when AD sells watches directly to greys backdoor. The amount of fully sticker'd, BNIB rolexes at some greys is disgusting.

jamesthejeweller · 20 April 2020, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soondooboo

The worst of it when AD sells watches directly to greys backdoor. The amount of fully sticker'd, BNIB rolexes at some greys is disgusting.

Every model in HK grays is fully stickered, I've never not seen an honest used or second hand piece in HK.

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vintagewatch · 20 April 2020, 05:33 AM

I can't blame AD's for selling highly allocated pieces to well established clients with significant spending histories. This practice makes sense in any retail environment to keep the "big spenders" walking in the door. AD's excepting names for waiting lists (or worse deposits) with no real intention of delivering the product that's what I find unacceptable.

jamesthejeweller · 20 April 2020, 05:36 AM

Every business Indeed looks after its whales, and I'd be lying if i said that we also didn't do this to a small extent, but again my main problem is the complete circumventing of stock to ONLY whales or grays. It's not what Rolex as a brand stands for.

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Michigan_State · 20 April 2020, 05:37 AM

Why did you even keep going back in the first place?

jamesthejeweller · 20 April 2020, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michigan_State

Why did you even keep going back in the first place?

It was very close to where my office was. I was on other lists at different ADs and had other relationships from when our fund operated in this space.

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capital · 20 April 2020, 06:03 AM

I've never been to an AD that behaved that way.
If I would have, I would share my experience here for sure, naming the AD too. As a community, it is in our benefit to rate dealers and warn about potential scammers wannabes.

Calatrava r · 20 April 2020, 06:13 AM

Not sure I see the "collusion" aspect in your post. They clearly did not want to sell to you which is their right in this seller's market. Things may change soon if demand slacks off and dealers are begging for customers. As they say, it is what it is.

cocoabutter · 20 April 2020, 06:14 AM

Well ADs and Greys will have very different problems in the coming months and years to come....the tales you are spilling OP are awful and truly disgusting behaviour from ADs. Not surprising but still shocking to read in black and white

jamesthejeweller · 20 April 2020, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calatrava r

Not sure I see the "collusion" aspect in your post. They clearly did not want to sell to you which is their right in this seller's market. Things may change soon if demand slacks off and dealers are begging for customers. As they say, it is what it is.

Rolex AD sales mandates as prescribed by Rolex themselves is B2C, not B2B.

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georgekart · 20 April 2020, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesthejeweller

Do we need to 'out' these ADs? Where does the community stand on this subject?

Or, how about we stop buying watches at grey prices. I get those people who want to pay 1k over on those pieces on which otherwise they'd have to wait. I honestly do. For example, if a BLRO was selling for 1k over grey, MSRP used or a wait list of about a year at an AD, I see how it'd make sense to enjoy having a new watch for a year longer by paying that 1k extra now. Also, nobody knows, prices can go up any point (unlikely now after COVID but still) so paying 1k extra might even be OK financially. But when unworn BLRO is listed at almost double retail, I will definitely not pay that. Either I'm getting one at MSRP or not getting one at all.

Exceptional · 20 April 2020, 06:45 AM

I hear you OP, I have had similiar experiences.

Exceptional · 20 April 2020, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by georgekart

Or, how about we stop buying watches at grey prices. I get those people who want to pay 1k over on those pieces on which otherwise they'd have to wait. I honestly do. For example, if a BLRO was selling for 1k over grey, MSRP used or a wait list of about a year at an AD, I see how it'd make sense to enjoy having a new watch for a year longer by paying that 1k extra now. Also, nobody knows, prices can go up any point (unlikely now after COVID but still) so paying 1k extra might even be OK financially. But when unworn BLRO is listed at almost double retail, I will definitely not pay that. Either I'm getting one at MSRP or not getting one at all.

I agree! A £1-2k premium was understandable, but double the retail is crazy.

BigTasty · 20 April 2020, 06:47 AM

Just find the whole idea of being "worthy" enough to have your money accepted in exchange for goods scummy. My money's as good as somebody else's, yet I may not be elite enough to be "accepted" to buy a product you distribute? Imagine going into Argos and the girl behind the till says " I'm sorry you're not allowed to order that"? There would be uproar. So, we have a choice. We can either say " I don't like how this company does business" and walk away, we don't HAVE to buy their product. Or go and find somewhere that will take our money. Most likely more of it. Unfortunately we don't have a right to own a Rolex, it's our choice. I decided that I wanted my watch enough to pay more money than retail. That was my choice ( well the wife's - she got it for me!). I can only hope the the AD that turned me away goes bust! They won't. But I can hope.

Hollie_Rollie · 20 April 2020, 06:47 AM

I don’t think there’s any need to “out” anyone. Just take your business elsewhere

LuminousMaximus · 20 April 2020, 06:48 AM

I'm much to impatient to wait for an AD to get what I need.

I just love our trusted sellers and TRF for having the best watch forum for buying...

20 April 2020, 04:43 AM	#1
jamesthejeweller "TRF" Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Real Name: James Location: TAX EXILE Watch: PLATONA Posts: 637	Rolex Authorised Dealer Collusion I wanted to get a pulse on the general feeling from TRF members about Rolex ADs and whether or not anyone has had negative experiences over the last decade (or whatever frame of reference individuals have) My thoughts around this subject have been piqued recently with news from India and China (Hong Kong) about AD collusion with gray market dealers, I have witnessed and experienced AD collusion with a gray market dealer (one of the biggest) in the UK and what they said to me when I called them out on this dodgy behavior in store has truly damaged my faith in ADs and their ability to resist the temptation to get greedy. I left the UK in 2018 for a more favorable tax situation and better climate and my new local AD is about as honest and good as they come; no package deals, spending minimums, premiums or discretionary waiting lists, they do things by first come first serve basis which is really quite refreshing. But is it time we outed these bent ADs? Below is a summary of what my previous UK AD said to me in 2018 after being on a BLNR wait list since the launch of the MK1 BLNR. 1. (AD) "...We don't keep waiting lists any more..." (ME) "...but I've been on a 'wait list' with you since 2015..." 2. You need to spend a minimum of £100k to be put onto a "favorable" wait list and you may get this piece within 12 months 3. (AD) "...You can have the next BLNR that comes in, but you need to pay 30% premium and we retain the guarantee card so you can't sell it..." (ME) "... I might as well buy one at full premium with guarantee card from (insert major gray dealer name here) and not have to wait at all.." (AD) "...yes you can do that, but we have a very close relationship with (gray dealer) and we'll tell them not to sell anything to you and we will blackball you.." 4. Our boutique owner (eponymous Rolex AD) makes the decisions on who gets what and when I may have said something rude at this point and I left quite quickly, I really can't remember, but I have not been back to these guys since. The point I want to convey is that, there are confirmed cases of AD collusion in India and China, but this issue as been going on in the UK and I can guess the US and Europe also since Rolex started booming. Do we need to 'out' these ADs? Where does the community stand on this subject? Best J __________________ Stay Cool J-T-J

20 April 2020, 04:53 AM	#2
kieselguhr "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2013 Real Name: Nick Location: Las Vegas Watch: 1601 Posts: 10,440	Rolex Authorised Dealer Collusion Their inventory, their property. Their business model is not my problem. If I don’t like the way an AD conducts business, I’ll just go find one that do I like.

20 April 2020, 04:56 AM	#4
jamesthejeweller "TRF" Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Real Name: James Location: TAX EXILE Watch: PLATONA Posts: 637	What happens when they all start being bent and there are NO honest dealers left... Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk __________________ Stay Cool J-T-J

20 April 2020, 05:00 AM	#5
kieselguhr "TRF" Member Join Date: May 2013 Real Name: Nick Location: Las Vegas Watch: 1601 Posts: 10,440	Rolex Authorised Dealer Collusion 5 years ago, this “gray dealer collusion” was the only way these ADs could survive because the same people complaining about it today prefered to buy at huge discounts from the very same “evil gray dealers” you speak of rather than buy new at an AD.

20 April 2020, 05:19 AM	#10
Swiss Mad! "TRF" Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Real Name: Max Location: UK Watch: Various Posts: 3,727	No.3: Did a Rolex AD REALLY tell you they were working hand in hand with a grey dealer and they had so much hold over said grey dealer that they could actually instruct/prevent them from selling you a watch???? Im sorry OP, I dont want to disbelieve what your saying but that sounds like something straight out of a movie scene & pure fantasy on the part of the AD's SA Even if they were working alongside a grey, they would want to keep it on the lo lo, so I would be extremely surprised if they openly admitted it to a potential customer. __________________ instagram: max.parkin

20 April 2020, 05:00 AM	#6
Nairn1980 "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: UK Watch: GMT Posts: 8,255	As above, if you don't like how one works, try another. However most of them will sell the sought after models to preferred customers. Chronological waiting lists really do not exist anymore and you will need to spend money regularly with an AD to get the "hot models". (There are exceptions of course)

20 April 2020, 05:00 AM	#7
WatchEater666 "TRF" Member Join Date: Oct 2019 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 1,669	ADs have turned me off the brand completely. I just buy from greys or used because they appreciate my business. I have no problem with ADs allocating however they'd like, but their lack of honesty is a real turnoff.

20 April 2020, 05:25 AM	#13
Milsub114060 Banned Join Date: Apr 2020 Location: London Posts: 111	Everyone’s at this let be honest and everyone knows it too or rather they were and now no one is going to be paying dumb prices at all ever

20 April 2020, 05:30 AM	#15
Soondooboo "TRF" Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Location: San Francisco Posts: 122	The worst of it when AD sells watches directly to greys backdoor. The amount of fully sticker'd, BNIB rolexes at some greys is disgusting.

20 April 2020, 05:33 AM	#17
vintagewatch "TRF" Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Real Name: David Location: Colorado, USA Watch: Sport 4digit ref# Posts: 295	I can't blame AD's for selling highly allocated pieces to well established clients with significant spending histories. This practice makes sense in any retail environment to keep the "big spenders" walking in the door. AD's excepting names for waiting lists (or worse deposits) with no real intention of delivering the product that's what I find unacceptable.

20 April 2020, 05:36 AM	#18
jamesthejeweller "TRF" Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Real Name: James Location: TAX EXILE Watch: PLATONA Posts: 637	Every business Indeed looks after its whales, and I'd be lying if i said that we also didn't do this to a small extent, but again my main problem is the complete circumventing of stock to ONLY whales or grays. It's not what Rolex as a brand stands for. Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk __________________ Stay Cool J-T-J

20 April 2020, 05:37 AM	#19
Michigan_State "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Real Name: Vince Location: Michigan Posts: 547	Why did you even keep going back in the first place? __________________ Have a nice day!

20 April 2020, 06:03 AM	#21
capital "TRF" Member Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: Europe Posts: 276	I've never been to an AD that behaved that way. If I would have, I would share my experience here for sure, naming the AD too. As a community, it is in our benefit to rate dealers and warn about potential scammers wannabes.

20 April 2020, 06:13 AM	#22
Calatrava r 2024 Pledge Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: United States Watch: Rolex and Patek Posts: 10,630	Not sure I see the "collusion" aspect in your post. They clearly did not want to sell to you which is their right in this seller's market. Things may change soon if demand slacks off and dealers are begging for customers. As they say, it is what it is.

20 April 2020, 06:14 AM	#23
cocoabutter "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: London UK Watch: SS Daytona Posts: 58	Well ADs and Greys will have very different problems in the coming months and years to come....the tales you are spilling OP are awful and truly disgusting behaviour from ADs. Not surprising but still shocking to read in black and white

20 April 2020, 06:45 AM	#26
Exceptional Banned Join Date: Apr 2020 Location: UK Posts: 84	I hear you OP, I have had similiar experiences.

20 April 2020, 06:47 AM	#28
BigTasty "TRF" Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Location: Uk Posts: 108	Just find the whole idea of being "worthy" enough to have your money accepted in exchange for goods scummy. My money's as good as somebody else's, yet I may not be elite enough to be "accepted" to buy a product you distribute? Imagine going into Argos and the girl behind the till says " I'm sorry you're not allowed to order that"? There would be uproar. So, we have a choice. We can either say " I don't like how this company does business" and walk away, we don't HAVE to buy their product. Or go and find somewhere that will take our money. Most likely more of it. Unfortunately we don't have a right to own a Rolex, it's our choice. I decided that I wanted my watch enough to pay more money than retail. That was my choice ( well the wife's - she got it for me!). I can only hope the the AD that turned me away goes bust! They won't. But I can hope.

20 April 2020, 06:47 AM	#29
Hollie_Rollie 2024 Pledge Member Join Date: Sep 2018 Location: U.S.A. Watch: SD43 Posts: 3,127	I don’t think there’s any need to “out” anyone. Just take your business elsewhere

20 April 2020, 06:48 AM	#30
LuminousMaximus "TRF" Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: USA Watch: me hit Huge Lotto Posts: 6,502	I'm much to impatient to wait for an AD to get what I need. I just love our trusted sellers and TRF for having the best watch forum for buying... __________________ “Every man Dies... Not Every Man, Really Lives.” – William Wallace - To really lives means to live your life to the fullest. It means to chase your dreams, take risks, and to love life. Since everyone’s fate is the same, why not live the best life that you possibly can? In order to really live,you must seize the day. Live each day as if it's your last and overall just do it! Today is a gift, that’s why it’s called the present...

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