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Old 16 December 2019, 01:42 AM   #151
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It’s kind of funny but not at the same time.

The day before they called to ground them, my family and I were flying on one from San Diego. Got up to about cruising altitude and then began a quick dive, and all the oxygen masks came down. After seeing the news I couldn’t really help to think well this is it for 1/2 a second. Eventually after a while the flight attendants addressed it and told us to put on the masks. Turned out it was the pressure release valve and they had to kill the pressurization system. We then flew at 10000 feet until we could reach the next airport and trade planes for a 737-700.

It was an interesting experience to say the least.
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Old 16 December 2019, 01:43 AM   #152
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In the Sonoma County and Butte County fires started by the utility company PG&E in 2017 and 2019 a total of something like 106 people died, 25,000 buildings gone, billions of dollars in property damage, dozens of domestic animals died, and thousands of square miles of forest destroyed.

PG&E has gone before the commission a number of times to raise rates for gas and electricity so they can upgrade antiquated equipment but instead of upgrading they give out bonuses to execs and use the money for lobbying politicians. This is all documented. My monthly bill is between $250 and $500 depending on the season.

They're now in bankruptcy for billions being owed to the people who sued them, and with their lobbying efforts have been allowed to raise rates to cover the costs of being sued. So effectively the citizens of California will be paying the costs of their negligence and not PG&E.

The fix is always in.
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Old 16 December 2019, 08:43 AM   #153
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It’s kind of funny but not at the same time.

The day before they called to ground them, my family and I were flying on one from San Diego. Got up to about cruising altitude and then began a quick dive, and all the oxygen masks came down. After seeing the news I couldn’t really help to think well this is it for 1/2 a second. Eventually after a while the flight attendants addressed it and told us to put on the masks. Turned out it was the pressure release valve and they had to kill the pressurization system. We then flew at 10000 feet until we could reach the next airport and trade planes for a 737-700.

It was an interesting experience to say the least.
Wow, I'm sorry you had to endure that but certainly glad you're ok and here to tell the story.



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In the Sonoma County and Butte County fires started by the utility company PG&E in 2017 and 2019 a total of something like 106 people died, 25,000 buildings gone, billions of dollars in property damage, dozens of domestic animals died, and thousands of square miles of forest destroyed.

PG&E has gone before the commission a number of times to raise rates for gas and electricity so they can upgrade antiquated equipment but instead of upgrading they give out bonuses to execs and use the money for lobbying politicians. This is all documented. My monthly bill is between $250 and $500 depending on the season.

They're now in bankruptcy for billions being owed to the people who sued them, and with their lobbying efforts have been allowed to raise rates to cover the costs of being sued. So effectively the citizens of California will be paying the costs of their negligence and not PG&E.

The fix is always in.
That's crazy and extremely sad how a lot of these cases play out in the business world. One way or the other the consumer will always take on the cost but this story is very disturbing.
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Old 16 December 2019, 09:28 AM   #154
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In the Sonoma County and Butte County fires started by the utility company PG&E in 2017 and 2019 a total of something like 106 people died, 25,000 buildings gone, billions of dollars in property damage, dozens of domestic animals died, and thousands of square miles of forest destroyed.

PG&E has gone before the commission a number of times to raise rates for gas and electricity so they can upgrade antiquated equipment but instead of upgrading they give out bonuses to execs and use the money for lobbying politicians. This is all documented. My monthly bill is between $250 and $500 depending on the season.

They're now in bankruptcy for billions being owed to the people who sued them, and with their lobbying efforts have been allowed to raise rates to cover the costs of being sued. So effectively the citizens of California will be paying the costs of their negligence and not PG&E.

The fix is always in.
I'm not excusing their corporate bonuses, but PG&E has been addled for years being forced to spend money to explore "green" energy pet projects by Jerr Bear and Gavin instead of upgrading their infrastructure, and there are also CA laws on the books about not trimming underbrush and trees next to power lines.
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Old 17 December 2019, 04:50 AM   #155
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So effectively the citizens of California will be paying the costs of their negligence and not PG&E.

The fix is always in.
Did you expect any different? MANY people are moving out of the Republic, as many are coming to FL or TX and save big $$$ too :)
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Old 21 December 2019, 01:43 AM   #156
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Well one difference - nobody was killed by front-running or printing more money.



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In general I really agree with most of what you have posted. But saying trading hasn't harmed people might be an assumption... TBH there is some good arguments to be made that speculating/trading on oil and essential products causes more harm to society at large and that excludes any incidental nefarious or suicidal causes.

I don't know if the SCOTUS decision applies like that, its interesting. The shareholders can likely sue the officers directly and I would guess may prevail. I'm just not 100% sure how it will work, there may be a corporate level fine or personal veil pierced if there are multiple torts committed by certain people. I'm not an attorney though it would be interesting to hear that...


That being said. I don't think Boeing's done, they are too good of a company. But I wouldn't be surprised if the CEO loses more than the chair of board.

And I wouldn't be incredibly surprised if the 737 max is quickly transitioned out of "first world" passenger flights, and is relegated to only cargo in the first world.

It does seem perhaps obvious to certain experts that the 737 Max is defective beyond software and reliance on one sensor.

I think economy and environment has a part in this too, it isn't just profits. Economy and Environmental concerns may eat away at certain safety margins and cause panic to catch up to others, like fitting engines that cause stability issues because they are more efficient.

TLDR I predict Boeing makes it and bounces back but the 737 Max doesn't as a passenger plane.
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Old 21 December 2019, 01:52 AM   #157
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It’s kind of funny but not at the same time.

The day before they called to ground them, my family and I were flying on one from San Diego. Got up to about cruising altitude and then began a quick dive, and all the oxygen masks came down. After seeing the news I couldn’t really help to think well this is it for 1/2 a second. Eventually after a while the flight attendants addressed it and told us to put on the masks. Turned out it was the pressure release valve and they had to kill the pressurization system. We then flew at 10000 feet until we could reach the next airport and trade planes for a 737-700.

It was an interesting experience to say the least.

whoa.
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Old 21 December 2019, 02:38 AM   #158
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Did you expect any different? MANY people are moving out of the Republic, as many are coming to FL or TX and save big $$$ too :)
Except the fix is in everywhere.

Florida and Texas are certainly not immune.
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Old 21 December 2019, 03:26 AM   #159
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TLDR I predict Boeing makes it and bounces back but the 737 Max doesn't as a passenger plane.

I think the odds of Boeing surviving in its current structure is thinner today after the Starliner anomaly. SpaceX is now leading them on that score.

If SpaceX passes the Safety tests this January, Boeing will likely be dropped for manned lifts to ISS and become the supply/garbage hauler.

Just my 2¢ - airliner and space are big product centers.


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Old 21 December 2019, 04:06 AM   #160
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Boeing will be fine, the max will return to service 2020, people will be hesitant to fly but I’ll happily jump on board.

People seem forget the 777x, 777F, still selling 767F, 787-8-9-10. My view the 777F will be become the worlds best selling freighter.
Also include all the defence contracts they have. The CEO is done after this and rightly so.
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Old 21 December 2019, 04:12 AM   #161
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Boeing will be fine, the max will return to service 2020, people will be hesitant to fly but I’ll happily jump on board.

People seem forget the 777x, 777F, still selling 767F, 787-8-9-10. My view the 777F will be become the worlds best selling freighter.
Also include all the defence contracts they have. The CEO is done after this and rightly so.
I'm guessing you're probably right.

New faces, new PR, maybe even a new name for the plane and business as usual.

Hopefully, although I'm not holding my breath, this fiasco will improve something, at least for a few years.

Shredding government oversight has been a mantra for one group for years, pulling funding from EPA to IRS, to Justice Dept. to FDA and SEC and others has let the fox into the hen house and we see the results.

Without oversight who would have thought that all these corporations would ever do anything wrong????????? They're just run by people.
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Old 21 December 2019, 04:24 AM   #162
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As a side note is Boeing was to cease operations as company, it would be disaster, would have global ramifications. I want to say at least 90% of freighters are Boeing. Almost all carrier operate Boeing for the wide body fleet.
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Old 21 December 2019, 05:44 AM   #163
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As a side note is Boeing was to cease operations as company, it would be disaster, would have global ramifications. I want to say at least 90% of freighters are Boeing. Almost all carrier operate Boeing for the wide body fleet.


Boeing’s obligations wouldn’t end so I don’t believe it would be a disaster. In other words their other airframes would continue production (including military contracts).

In fact, a breakup might give current shareholders a bonus - selling off the different units could be accretive price wise.

I’m not advocating that - just saying it wouldn’t necessarily be a disaster.

For example, in 1984 the DOJ broke up AT&T when the latter agreed to settle. The post-divestiture value was greater (as a sum of the parts) than the original integrated monopoly had been.


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Old 21 December 2019, 07:19 AM   #164
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Boeing will be fine, the max will return to service 2020, people will be hesitant to fly but I’ll happily jump on board.

People seem forget the 777x, 777F, still selling 767F, 787-8-9-10. My view the 777F will be become the worlds best selling freighter.
Also include all the defence contracts they have. The CEO is done after this and rightly so.
The 737 Max has become so toxic for the company and the flying public it may be over for it. Any company that places profits ahead of hundreds of lives doesn't deserve redemption in my book. Screw 'em. No way I will ever fly on one. I will purposely choose a carrier that uses Airbus planes.
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Old 21 December 2019, 06:05 PM   #165
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I doubt the public want to board the Max ever again. Let's face it, Boeing was lazy, the 737 is an early 1960 design, (doesn't even cover up it's wheels completely when up), and I truly believe this airframe has reached it's end. You can't go on forever adding bigger engines to a design that is too close to the ground.
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Old 21 December 2019, 07:26 PM   #166
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I doubt the public want to board the Max ever again. Let's face it, Boeing was lazy, the 737 is an early 1960 design, (doesn't even cover up it's wheels completely when up), and I truly believe this airframe has reached it's end. You can't go on forever adding bigger engines to a design that is too close to the ground.
Excellent point, Boeing didn't adjust the landing gear and engine mounts to ensure a proper balance envelope. Seems Boeing may have felt software would solve their inherent hardware design flaws.
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Old 21 December 2019, 10:46 PM   #167
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The 737 Max has become so toxic for the company and the flying public it may be over for it. Any company that places profits ahead of hundreds of lives doesn't deserve redemption in my book. Screw 'em. No way I will ever fly on one. I will purposely choose a carrier that uses Airbus planes.

So Delta, spirit..
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Old 22 December 2019, 06:23 AM   #168
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The 737 Max has become so toxic for the company and the flying public it may be over for it. Any company that places profits ahead of hundreds of lives doesn't deserve redemption in my book. Screw 'em. No way I will ever fly on one. I will purposely choose a carrier that uses Airbus planes.
There is nothing wrong with all the other Boeings, but the 737 MAX or whatever they will rename it to is probably doomed. This might spill over into people avoiding anything called 737.
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Old 24 December 2019, 01:55 AM   #169
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Step one: Fire the CEO...........Check.

Love to hear what his payout was.

At least now he has the time to go to the gravesites of 346 people and give his speech of:

We can do better, mistakes were made, yadda yadda...


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...akes-his-place
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Old 24 December 2019, 02:09 AM   #170
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Hopefully they can find someone on the level of Alan Mulally to steer this company back in the right direction. So many costly missteps, good riddance.
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Old 24 December 2019, 01:46 PM   #171
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Step one: Fire the CEO...........Check.

Love to hear what his payout was.

At least now he has the time to go to the gravesites of 346 people and give his speech of:

We can do better, mistakes were made, yadda yadda...


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...akes-his-place
$40 million golden parachute. Pathetic.
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Old 25 December 2019, 01:45 AM   #172
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$40 million golden parachute. Pathetic.
Wow.

Should be parachuting into a jail cell.
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Old 17 January 2020, 08:59 PM   #173
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June 4th 2020 now with test flights for company employees prior
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Old 18 January 2020, 09:24 AM   #174
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Plane will get cleared around Sept 2020. Fly a bit. Airlines will cancel orders and Boeing will pay restitution to them. Then bought back with parts removed or fleet sold to non IATA regions or converted for non commercial use for water bombers or freighters or military refuelling / transports.

It’s now about proving they can fix the wrong and moving on.

The 737 Max is dead. And the entire 737 model. Public will refuse booking and flying on it.
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Old 18 January 2020, 06:15 PM   #175
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Capitalism at it’s best:
the one of Boeing employees wrote on June 2018 : “It’s systemic. It’s culture. It’s the fact that we have a senior leadership team that understand very little about the business and yet are driving us to certain objectives. It’s lots of individual groups that aren’t working closely and being accountable. It exemplifies the ‘lazy B.’ Sometimes you have to let things fail big so that everyone can identify a problem.”
the other e-mails:
"All the messages are about meeting schedule, not delivering quality," one employee said.

A colleague replied: "We put ourselves in this position by picking the lowest-cost supplier and signing up to impossible schedules.

"Why did the lowest-ranking and most unproven supplier receive the contract? Solely because of the bottom dollar."

https://www.voanews.com/usa/boeing-e...ture-arrogance
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Old 19 January 2020, 02:14 AM   #176
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Which Mar-a-lago guest is in charge of the FAA these days?
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Old 19 January 2020, 02:18 AM   #177
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Inattentional blindness is a terrible thing. Focusing solely on cost savings for Boeing made many families pay the ultimate price of a lost love one. Now they've lost public trust and inevitable have a lot more to pay out vs. what they saved for this debacle.

It'll be interesting to see what strategies the new CEO will utilize to try get the company out of this hole. It'll likely take a VERY long time.
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Old 19 January 2020, 02:35 AM   #178
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Inattentional blindness is a terrible thing. Focusing solely on cost savings for Boeing made many families pay the ultimate price of a lost love one. Now they've lost public trust and inevitable have a lot more to pay out vs. what they saved for this debacle.

It'll be interesting to see what strategies the new CEO will utilize to try get the company out of this hole. It'll likely take a VERY long time.
Personally I don't think the public has a very long attention span, and the dead were not from first world countries which sadly means they were not important to most people.

I hope this wakes up regulators across the board but I doubt it will. These corporations have too much money and too much political influence so basically there is no sheriff in town and even if he wasn't corrupt, the people who pay his paycheck are.

Business as usual by then end of the year. Whether this plane can withstand the scrutiny or not remains to be seen, but Boeing will re-arrange the chairs and nothing will change that much.
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Old 19 January 2020, 06:57 AM   #179
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Personally I don't think the public has a very long attention span, and the dead were not from first world countries which sadly means they were not important to most people.
I really think you hit the hammer to the nail here.

This is sadly very true. Most people aim for the cheapest tickets. The demographics is true too.

I would not fly on the 737 Max, ever (if it makes it to service). I'm not cheap, and I don't mind re-routing a bit. I'm not doing it out of fear, but principle.
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Old 19 January 2020, 11:44 AM   #180
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Personally I don't think the public has a very long attention span, and the dead were not from first world countries which sadly means they were not important to most people.

I hope this wakes up regulators across the board but I doubt it will. These corporations have too much money and too much political influence so basically there is no sheriff in town and even if he wasn't corrupt, the people who pay his paycheck are.

Business as usual by then end of the year. Whether this plane can withstand the scrutiny or not remains to be seen, but Boeing will re-arrange the chairs and nothing will change that much.
Totally agree and it's certainly sad. Most would have no idea what type of aircraft they're on or simply assume all has been looked after safety wise (which should be a given and not unreasonable).

I guess the one(s) they'll have the hardest time trying to convince they've got a sound product going forward would be the airlines.
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