Red Submariner 1680 Mk 4 - Round 2 (2nd attempt)

[Bearxj86]

Ok I know I didn't get on the right foot with you guys since I was in the middle of a transaction but the support was incredibly so I appreciate it so much I am ready for more punishment! I have another one I found ...this time I am not going to disclose the location lol. However on the bright side I do have better pictures! I learned so much from everyone too so it was accelerated development for a newbie like me.

See below - looks like a Mk4 dial with fatter (than service) font bezel with NICE LUGS!!!! Newer bracelet so no original bracelet. It was last sold in Japan with dealer invoice...so that's a pretty good sign to me. Outside of the dealer invoice, no accessories.

[twnturbo]

Its all about the price & the condition, is that drag marks on the dial around the 6 o clock mark & chipping on the edge at 7 o'clock kinda hard to tell pics are a little grainy.

[Bearxj86]

Going back and forth but I might be able to get it under $20k. Will ask about the potential defects...

[HarryLime]

What's the price on this one?

[HarryLime]

Ah ok, I should have refreshed the page!

[Kingface66]

I love your dedication and enthusiasm! Truly.
That said, that insert is def not period-correct. You can tell (besides the thinness) by the broad flat top of the 4

[rmlovett1]

Originally Posted by Kingface66

I love your dedication and enthusiasm! Truly.
That said, that insert is def not period-correct. You can tell (besides the thinness) by the broad flat top of the 4

⬆️⬆️⬆️ Agreed ..and the pics are grainy still to see the absolute condition of the dial.

[05carbondrz]

The thing with Red Subs is You can’t be bargain hunting.The truly good and correct examples are few and far between and bring a pretty penny.This is the reason a couple Years back I dropped the Red Sub idea and bought the best White 1680 Sub I could find,A decision I don’t regret for a Second.

[Bearxj86]

Originally Posted by twnturbo

Its all about the price & the condition, is that drag marks on the dial around the 6 o clock mark & chipping on the edge at 7 o'clock kinda hard to tell pics are a little grainy.

You guys are like bloodhounds but really good!. Yes - the seller acknowledges that there is a chip on the edge of 7 o'clock but no drag marks on the 6 o'clock.

When I asked about the bezel a few days ago; he said that he wasn't sure whether it was a replacement but "appears period correct with fat fonts".

[btinl]

There’s damage to the dial. Pass.

Also, still looks like a service insert. Looks too thin to be mid font, and it’s definitely not fat font.

[05carbondrz]

It’s a Service Insert,100% NOT period correct.

[MinMay]

Originally Posted by bearxj86

You guys are like bloodhounds but really good!. Yes - the seller acknowledges that there is a chip on the edge of 7 o'clock but no drag marks on the 6 o'clock.

When I asked about the bezel a few days ago; he said that he wasn't sure whether it was a replacement but "appears period correct with fat fonts".

listen to the expert here as they know more than 95% of the seller out there :)

ask for HD pictures....since you'll be spending the price of a car (new) :) . The watch looks like a complete makeover...movement looks like all new parts :) . Huge dent on the lug....

[bertberr]

Is it just me, or perhaps its a trick of the light in those small images, but the red sub font looks more like MkV to me i.e. red direct to dial, but the font spacing / alignment is defo MkIV... Weird.

[Chunky]

FYI, here is an example of a fat font insert. Notice the 4 in 40. Good luck in your search.

[Bearxj86]

I got a few closer photos. The lug dents seems to be caused by the bracelet and it is covered so seems ok?

The lume dot has this bubble texture - is it normal? Take a look. Can you tell if it was relumed and also whether the hands truly match the dial?

[Kingface66]

If the dealer is assuring you that the insert “appears period correct with fat fonts" then he both doesn’t know what a fat font insert looks like, and is willingly telling you something you want to hear. Neither of which would give me much confidence as a buyer.

Also, I can’t believe these dents were caused by bracelet wear.




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[Gina Marie]

Dial chipping, while common, does not warranty a price above 15 imho. Service bezel value is 250. Mark3 bezel value is 1500. Add 1300ish to you purchase price and that is what you will end up paying. Lugs are not thick and in fact are poorly polished. Case work will be 550. 3 o'clock lug is razor thin and cannot afford to be recut. In summation, a pass. For 20k you can find much nicer. Sorry. This watch has issues. Dial, case, insert. In that order.

Anyone telling you that the insert is period correct is either disingenuous or lacking knowledge. Neither is good for a watch dealer.

Cheers.

[thomaspp]

The case looks polished and re-cut. The tell is in those rounded crownguards.

[Bearxj86]

I am going to pass on this one too - I did like it but as you all pointed out there are some pretty decent flaws that make it worth passing on. We were at around $17k but I think I am willing to pay more for one with the right bezel, no visible dial damage etc.

This has been SUPER eye opening. Wow! Imagine what you guys could find in person with a loupe (*shudder*)

[Kingface66]

As 05carbondrz eluded to earlier, bargain-hunting Red Subs will likely result in a very frustrating, lengthy, and unsatisfying endeavor. For $17K any Red Sub is gonna have issues at the price. Are they issues you can live with? Even if they are, at some point down the road, when you want to sell it, those exact issues, and probably some others, will come up and you'll be in for a new round of frustration.

On a personal note, all of the occasions over the years when I paid a little, or even a lot more than I'd planned on for a vintage Rolex, I have never once regretted the decision, or dwelt on the amount I paid for very long. At this point in time, they've all increased in value (some have doubled) and I feel very happy that I made the right choice back then.

[MinMay]

Yah. Gotta be careful or else you’ll end up with an unwanted watch for life. I see a lot of watch sitting for years unsold. Collectors are willing to pay premium but only for original. Good luck.

[swish77]

Great advice above. I'd definitely pass on this example. I wouldn't buy at any price.

Why not just reach out to a couple of great sellers/dealers and ask them to email you when/if they get a great example of a red Sub? And monitor Instagram accounts of the top dealers. Most of the excellent examples don't ever make it to listings anymore, or even websites. You need to network and hunt!

[bertberr]

You're in LA right? Bobs have two Reds, one MkVI and one MkIV, bit pricey for what they are, but the MkVI is 22K usd, does have dial damage mind. The MkIV is pretty nice but 28K...
HQ Milton have a nice MkIV but again 28K.
If you're patient I'm sure you'll come across a nicer example than the OP one above, for circa 20K.

[05carbondrz]

Another thing to remember is that prices continue to go up while you are searching,3-6 Months from now 20K might not even get a decent example.

[Bearxj86]

I actually showed this forum posting to the seller. He was really nice about it and we are still negotiating based on this information (The max 15k with dial damage and 250k for service bezel are great data points). I am truly thankful for everyone's contribution here. I'm looking for a good value deal and something I can wear without worrying - personally as long as it is in wearable condition with authentic period correct parts I will be happy. In the end I think price versus condition is the trade-off. : )

[Bearxj86]

Originally Posted by 05carbondrz

Another thing to remember is that prices continue to go up while you are searching,3-6 Months from now 20K might not even get a decent example.

I am very cognizant of this. In the end the Mk3 bezel can be purchased so it comes down to the dial, hands and case. The dial is ok outside of the little chip. The case has the lug dents but not noticeable under the bracelet etc.

[mattedialdoc]

Originally Posted by swish77

Great advice above. I'd definitely pass on this example. I wouldn't buy at any price.



Why not just reach out to a couple of great sellers/dealers and ask them to email you when/if they get a great example of a red Sub? And monitor Instagram accounts of the top dealers. Most of the excellent examples don't ever make it to listings anymore, or even websites. You need to network and hunt!

+1

This is excellent advice from Aaron. I would heed it.

I say this from wanting to help you as others did for me:

I sense almost an urgency in your attempt at buying a Red Sub.

Please don’t be in a rush.

I looked for a year before buying my first vintage Sub and am so glad a took the time and learned and waited for the right example. Reach out to some vintage dealers and have them contact you as Aaron recommends. As others have said, if you take the bait on a subpar piece you will be stuck in the future. I guarantee you will outgrow what you now consider acceptable flaws. And no one else will want the piece for what you will need to recoup. I’ve seen it happen many times. Good luck!!


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[jdmi32]

It's a MK4 dial (you can tell by the placement of the sloping foot on the "R" in ROLEX). Insert is a replacement and the damage to the dial would put me out of the running.

Having said that, the watch does present well and at the right price, would be a nice addition for someone who just has to have a Red Sub but doesn't have the funds for a really nice example. My guess is that this one will be sold to someone who hasn't done their homework and close to the seller's asking price.

[77T]

It is a sellers market right now and you are right to be careful and fully vet anything above average values.

Having said that, this is a hard time to be a buyer unless the pedigree can be proved. Any flaws or questionable parts will seriously affect future value whenever the next “correction” occurs in financial markets. The best examples will dip a bit but any flawed ones will drop a good deal.

Only saying that since you mentioned wanting a good deal - it made me think you are value-sensitive.


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[05carbondrz]

Originally Posted by swish77

Great advice above. I'd definitely pass on this example. I wouldn't buy at any price.

Why not just reach out to a couple of great sellers/dealers and ask them to email you when/if they get a great example of a red Sub? And monitor Instagram accounts of the top dealers. Most of the excellent examples don't ever make it to listings anymore, or even websites. You need to network and hunt!

You are behind the 8 Ball with this tactic,The Seller has You right where they want You.I myself have never been a Fan if having a Dealer search for You,He will expect to be paid for this service with a high asking price.