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Old 5 August 2020, 01:00 AM   #1
krakolis
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1603 Two Tone - Questions

Hi RWF,

I've been following this channel for a few months now, but only recently joined and this is my first post. Hoping to leverage the knowledge of the community before I make a purchase.

I'm looking at a 1603 dating back to the late 1970's (5.2 is the serial).

The question I have for the community: Did Rolex make 1603's in two tone with gold bezels? My understanding is that they were made with engine turn bezels in SS.

I understand that the 1601 and 1604 are easily interchangeable with parts, and just want to understand if the watch I'm looking to purchase is likely not an original 1603, but one that has 1601 parts etc.

Bonus: If the parts have been swapped would this impact it's value? Not looking to flip the watch, more about keeping its value long term as an inheritance piece.



Thanks for your time RWF
Nick
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Old 5 August 2020, 05:23 AM   #2
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I believe Rolex made 1601/1603 models with bi-metal materials in the late 1970s. Rolex did not necessarily have different reference numbers at this time based on case/bracelet materials. See picture for reference.



1977 Rolex Catalog
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Old 5 August 2020, 05:31 AM   #3
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Sorry, posted same thing twice, please disregard.
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Old 5 August 2020, 05:59 AM   #4
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If it's a fluted bezel, and the case says 1603, the the bezel is not original to the watch. Photos would also help, because you don't mention the crown, hands, or dial furniture, and whether they are also consistent with a TT. Some people will say it doesn't matter because it's just a DJ, but IMO you may want to know how much is original and how much has been swapped out.
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Old 5 August 2020, 06:31 AM   #5
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1603 is steel only


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Old 5 August 2020, 07:15 AM   #6
krakolis
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Thanks everyone this is very helpful. I have pictures of the watch being sold, just trying to see how to post them on the forum given that I have only two posts.

For reference the dial also makes me question the watch. It’s a grey linen dial with gold hour markers and hands.

Last edited by krakolis; 5 August 2020 at 07:18 AM.. Reason: Spelling
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Old 5 August 2020, 07:34 AM   #7
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Thanks everyone this is very helpful. I have pictures of the watch being sold, just trying to see how to post them on the forum given that I have only two posts.

For reference the dial also makes me question the watch. It’s a grey linen dial with gold hour markers and hands.
You may have to downsize the images, but you can upload them directly using the MANAGE ATTACHMENTS option. Obviously, it's not unusual for people to swap out parts in DJs and customize them.
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Old 5 August 2020, 07:54 AM   #8
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Thanks Dan!

Attached a picture of the crown as well

Last edited by krakolis; 5 August 2020 at 08:48 AM.. Reason: Added pictures
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Old 5 August 2020, 01:20 PM   #9
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More pics provided by the seller
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg 49D52E50-CEDA-48AA-9C84-858F57079411.jpeg (262.6 KB, 154 views)
File Type: jpeg C95092E4-1C6A-427C-9971-1DAC54A8F507.jpeg (162.2 KB, 157 views)
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Old 5 August 2020, 02:10 PM   #10
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It would be interesting to see what reference number is between the lugs. It could just be the caseback that says 1603.
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Old 5 August 2020, 05:06 PM   #11
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It would be interesting to see what reference number is between the lugs. It could just be the caseback that says 1603.
This might be the answer.
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Old 5 August 2020, 09:39 PM   #12
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It would be interesting to see what reference number is between the lugs. It could just be the caseback that says 1603.
What are you thinking this might be Dan? A 1601 with a 1603 case back?
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Old 5 August 2020, 11:28 PM   #13
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What are you thinking this might be Dan? A 1601 with a 1603 case back?
Anything is possible, and it's worth asking for a photo of the case reference number IMO, and the serial number too (just to make sure that it has been read correctly). I will note that in the OP, you indicated that the watch is from the late 70s, from the 5.2 case serial number. The case-back indicates third-quarter 1967 if I'm reading it correctly.
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Old 5 August 2020, 11:32 PM   #14
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Anything is possible, and it's worth asking for a photo of the case reference number IMO. I will note that in the OP, you indicated that the watch is from the late 70s. I don't know where that information came from, but the case-back indicates 1967 if I'm reading it correctly.
5.2M SN, which means the CB isn't original
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Old 5 August 2020, 11:36 PM   #15
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5.2M SN, which means the CB isn't original
Thanks for that. After my original post, I went back and read the OP more carefully and noticed that SN, so I edited my post. Still, I would prefer to see photos of all the numbers instead of taking the seller's word. People make mistakes all the time.
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Old 6 August 2020, 12:26 AM   #16
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You guys are awesome! So glad the community has been able to help and educate me at the same time.

I've reached out to the seller asking for more photos of all the numbers and will update the thread when he's replies.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here. But based on findings to date; it seems like the watch is not all original.

- The bezel being fluted is not original to the 1603.
- The case back engraving Q3-67 and the case serial number shared 5.2 (1978) does not match...posing the question is the case back not original or did the sell make an error when reading the numbers. In order for the case back to match, the serial would have to read 1.5 (1967)
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Old 6 August 2020, 12:54 AM   #17
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1603 is stainless from Rolex but there are many conversions out there. If it's a conversion it's a complete one. so many skip the date wheel and leave the white wheel on it. If the watch is actually from the 70s it has the wrong bezel. That's a 3 mm early bezel and would have been the later 5mm.

It's a gorgeous watch and should be enjoyed for what it is. Whatever it.s journey has been it's a beautiful thing. To turn it down or tear it up to make it "original" is rank noob and not something an actual Rolex collector would do. And while I'm ranting stop chopping up original bracelets, find one thar't already been destroyed. :)
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Old 6 August 2020, 01:28 AM   #18
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Appreciate the insight Richard. I am definately a noob in this space...but very eager to learn. It's nice to understand the watch is likely a conversion...not knocking that at all, as I too think it looks terrific.

What I'm trying to do is leverage all the insights shared to better understand price.

Any thoughts from the community on what folks would pay for this? The last thing I want to do is overpay... I have no idea how the market would value a conversion like this.
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Old 6 August 2020, 01:46 AM   #19
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You guys are awesome! So glad the community has been able to help and educate me at the same time.

I've reached out to the seller asking for more photos of all the numbers and will update the thread when he's replies.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong here. But based on findings to date; it seems like the watch is not all original.

- The bezel being fluted is not original to the 1603.
- The case back engraving Q3-67 and the case serial number shared 5.2 (1978) does not match...posing the question is the case back not original or did the sell make an error when reading the numbers. In order for the case back to match, the serial would have to read 1.5 (1967)
Also, get a photo of the case reference number from between the lugs at 12. Just so you have all the information you need to decide what you want to do. As noted above, it's a lovely watch, and DJs get converted all the time. But you deserve to know what you are buying.
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Old 6 August 2020, 02:05 AM   #20
krakolis
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Thanks everyone...learning a lot here and appreciate all the insight. I'm definitely a noob in this space.

The seller has reached back out letting me know he doesn't have the tools to release the lugs and says its very difficult to see the serial number without removing the strap. That being said he was able to confirm the the case ref number shows 1603.

With all the information the community has provided... what do you all estimate a DJ like this (conversion and 3mm bezel vs. 5mm bezel) is worth?

I think the watch is beautiful too, but this is new territory for me. Any thoughts on what a market price for such a watch would be? As a reference, the seller has said he is willing to sell it for around $2400 USD.
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Old 6 August 2020, 02:50 AM   #21
L.K Johnson
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The only time I have ever seen an engine turned bezel in YG is on a 34mm Rolex model, like this 1505:

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Old 6 August 2020, 02:57 AM   #22
krakolis
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[QUOTE=L.K Johnson;10801816]The only time I have ever seen an engine turned bezel in YG is on a 34mm Rolex model, like this 1505:


Thanks L.K
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Old 6 August 2020, 04:56 AM   #23
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. . .

The seller has reached back out letting me know he doesn't have the tools to release the lugs and says its very difficult to see the serial number without removing the strap. That being said he was able to confirm the the case ref number shows 1603.

. . .
Seller is blowing air up your skirt. All it takes is a toothpick to release the lugs, and with the strap shown, you can read the numbers at the case/strap gap.

There seems to be enough information here to determine that this watch was likely built from a box of parts (frankenwatch) specifically to sell.
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Old 6 August 2020, 05:22 AM   #24
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Seller is blowing air up your skirt. All it takes is a toothpick to release the lugs, and with the strap shown, you can read the numbers at the case/strap gap.

There seems to be enough information here to determine that this watch was likely built from a box of parts (frankenwatch) specifically to sell.
I agree. Even if the serial number is from 1967 (matching the case-back), the fact that the case reference is 1603 means that it has been converted to look like a 1601. $2,400 without a bracelet is below market price for a correct TT 1601, but it isn't a massive bargain, and it will always be a difficult watch to sell if you decide to upgrade.

As I mentioned above, some people don't really consider DJs to be terribly collectible, so they would say to just buy it if you like it and enjoy wearing it, and appreciate the fact that you're getting a bit of a price break because the watch has been tampered with. From a collector's perspective, it's a watch to avoid.

It's really a personal decision, and the most important question is how you feel about the fact that it has been converted. Some people will be bothered and some won't care at all.
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Old 6 August 2020, 05:47 AM   #25
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could be converted back and gold parts sold off, but still wouldn't solve the CB issue
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Old 6 August 2020, 06:25 AM   #26
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It's common to see DateJusts with replaced and altered dials and bezels, of course. Apart from the case back, this looks like a relatively thoughtful project watch. Very attractive and apparently not too bad price-wise.

As a starter Rolex, not at all bad.
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Old 6 August 2020, 10:43 AM   #27
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Thanks you all so much. All the help has proved invaluable. Without this thread I would have only assumed a bezel swap might have happened.

A little voice inside my head has been telling me from the beginning to pass on this watch...something else will come up that you’ll have a stronger connection to. So I’ve decided to pass on making the purchase.

If I were able to meet you all in a bar, the first round of drinks would be on me.

Thanks again for all the support.
Nick
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Old 6 August 2020, 03:17 PM   #28
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If it's a fluted bezel, and the case says 1603, the the bezel is not original to the watch. Photos would also help, because you don't mention the crown, hands, or dial furniture, and whether they are also consistent with a TT. Some people will say it doesn't matter because it's just a DJ, but IMO you may want to know how much is original and how much has been swapped out.
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Old 6 August 2020, 03:31 PM   #29
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It would be really great to see if the serial comes to the same time frame as the caseback.

VERY often just like with 5513-5512 of the era...you will see a case back that doesn't match the exact reference on a 16xx or 15xx watch. Not a huge issue...if the date code is relevant to the serial.

As for the gold parts. I learned watchmaking from a former authorized dealer 1955-1970, who was later an on premise Certified Rolex Watchmaker for and who also later managed Baily Banks and Biddle Stores. He was an extremely close personal friend of the TOP Rolex representative in the Southern States Region, Red Johnson. Before the counterfeiting craze forced Rolex to tighten things regarding what came on what, the concept of "upgrading" was suggested by Rolex reps. When people would come in and look at steel and gold watches but got cold feet because of the price difference, the concept was to sell the steel model with the potential of upgrading to steel and gold later with parts stocked by the dealer. It was VERY common for dealers to do this. So....I would't freak out about the watch being not what it says...IF you like it. It very well could've been done by the dealer at some point.

That being said if you want to buy it and put the engine turned steel bezel on I have about 5 of them. The 600 steel crown is not particularly difficult either.
:-)
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Old 7 August 2020, 12:11 AM   #30
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It would be really great to see if the serial comes to the same time frame as the caseback.

VERY often just like with 5513-5512 of the era...you will see a case back that doesn't match the exact reference on a 16xx or 15xx watch. Not a huge issue...if the date code is relevant to the serial.

As for the gold parts. I learned watchmaking from a former authorized dealer 1955-1970, who was later an on premise Certified Rolex Watchmaker for and who also later managed Baily Banks and Biddle Stores. He was an extremely close personal friend of the TOP Rolex representative in the Southern States Region, Red Johnson. Before the counterfeiting craze forced Rolex to tighten things regarding what came on what, the concept of "upgrading" was suggested by Rolex reps. When people would come in and look at steel and gold watches but got cold feet because of the price difference, the concept was to sell the steel model with the potential of upgrading to steel and gold later with parts stocked by the dealer. It was VERY common for dealers to do this. So....I would't freak out about the watch being not what it says...IF you like it. It very well could've been done by the dealer at some point.

That being said if you want to buy it and put the engine turned steel bezel on I have about 5 of them. The 600 steel crown is not particularly difficult either.
:-)
Thanks R.W.T - Didnt realize dealers in the past use to sell with an upgrade model. It's smart, but I can understand how the evolution of the counterfeit market has impacted this.
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