1680 White Dial Question

[Tudor66]

Here is my service dial white sub.....

Great thread guys...

[stevedssd]

Originally Posted by bluemartinifan

Couldnt resist. My 5.23 from Andrew Shear. L and crown are positioned like Buffy's 5.27.

Beautiful watch and great Mk2 dial

Originally Posted by Tudor66

Here is my service dial white sub.....

Great thread guys...

That is such a sharp service dial, looks great

[marcello pisani]

that look very close :
1) mk1 has the letter " L " perfectly centered , while in mk3 is a little bit moved on the left ;
2) in the line of maximum depth we have also some differences :
--the letter " f " in mk3 is more " sloped " and the upper horizontal part is longer ;
-- there is also a small difference in the number " 6 " that in mk3 looks skinner.

[southtexas]

Rookie question--throughout the 1680s serial range, Rolex was producing both "white" subs and red subs? meaning serial 3XXXXX1 could be a red sub, and 3XXXXX4 could be a white sub?

If so, why were they doing this?

Or, are white sub dials in the "red serial ranges" actually service dials?

[marcello pisani]

Originally Posted by southtexas

Rookie question--throughout the 1680s serial range, Rolex was producing both "white" subs and red subs? meaning serial 3XXXXX1 could be a red sub, and 3XXXXX4 could be a white sub?

If so, why were they doing this?

Or, are white sub dials in the "red serial ranges" actually service dials?

no latest red subs seen are in 3.9 case range ( middle 1975 circa ) and earliest " white " 1680 seen are in the 4.25 range ( end of 1976 just before the range of replacement cases ) ,
so there is a gap of around 18 months and roughly 300.000 case numbers : this is one of the very few times in which we can exclude any possible overlap.
obviously " white " dials in the " red range " are later replacements.

[marcello pisani]

1) 3.9 is within the first half of 1975 ( probably inside the first quarter )
2) 4.25 is in the second half of 1976 ( probably inside the 3d quarter )
in any case the estimated gap of 18 months doesn't change so much : so we could say that the elapsed time betwen the 2 figures is in the range of 15-18 months.

[southtexas]

Very interesting, thanks as always! So there are factory whites with 3 million serial ranges (as was the watch in another active thread here http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=332604 )

...I had always thought they were released in the mid 4's.

I've seen another thread on another forum wherein several '4 million series' red sub owners posted up (some claiming RSC authenticated them). But it seems everyone acknowledges buying a 4 million red sub is dodgy.

In short, there is overlap?????

[springer]

Originally Posted by marcello pisani

1) 3.9 is within the first half of 1975 ( probably inside the first quarter )
2) 4.25 is in the second half of 1976 ( probably inside the 3d quarter )
in any case the estimated gap of 18 months doesn't change so much : so we could say that the elapsed time betwen the 2 figures is in the range of 15-18 months.

Marcello, just so I understand, and I don't know if I'm reading your post correctly, but the white lettered Subs were available before the 4XXXXXX serial numbers.

My first white-dialed Submariner 1680 had serial number 386XXXX, Mark I dial. My watch also had a 93150 bracelet coded 1 1976. Also, it was a one owner watch, pictured below.

[marcello pisani]

last " red subs " are in the 3.93 case range and the first " white " with cases in the 4.2 range .
in my opinion there has never been an overlap due to time ( 15-18 months ) passed between these 2 case ranges ( that by the way is roughly 320.000 watches ).

[springer]

Originally Posted by marcello pisani

last " red subs " are in the 3.93 case range and the first " white " with cases in the 4.2 range .
in my opinion there has never been an overlap due to time ( 15-18 months ) passed between these 2 case ranges ( that by the way is roughly 320.000 watches ).

I would have to respectfully disagree as evidenced by my last post. Certainly there is no exact or definite date when dial changes occurred regarding case numbers. At best it is an estimate. Most info that I have observed regarding red Subs indicates that the production ended during the high 3XXXXXX range. Trying to place exact production dates for dials is a guesstimate at best not unlike the "guestimates" on production dates based on serial numbers.

[marcello pisani]

however my idea is based on these points :
1) most 1680 in the " 3.900.000 " have red dials
2) there is a break of more than 300.000 case numbers ( 15-18 months ) between 3.9 and 4.2 so for me it's very unlikely an overlap of white dials in the 3.900.000 range.
and don't forget that < a swallow doesn't make a summer > ... LLOOOLL
by the way " production dates based on serial numbers " are not certainly " guess-estimate " as I have a copy of internal Rolex production tables that give for every year
the exact range of cases produced ( for ex. from 1.234.555 to 1.401.999 in 196X) ;
so about production year I'm 100 % correct.
we know also from sure that case numbers were given progressively once watches had been assembled ( most times in batches )
and this is way I can estimate the quarter in which a certain case number has been assigned.

[Beaumont Miller II]

Great information Marcello. Thank you for sharing.

So are you saying that a number of 1680's would be produced and assembled in a batch and given sequential serial numbers and then a batch of 1675's would be produced and assebled and given their serial numbers? How many watches would be in a batch?

[Rick-O]

Thank you Marcello for posting this...although I wonder how many guys are looking at their 1680's now and wondering hmmmmm?! LOL

[marcello pisani]

Originally Posted by Beaumont Miller II

Great information Marcello. Thank you for sharing.

1) So are you saying that a number of 1680's would be produced and assembled in a batch and given sequential serial numbers and then a batch of 1675's would be produced and assebled and given their serial numbers?
2) How many watches would be in a batch?

about your questions :
1) yes it's a sort of FIFO ( first in , first out ) : if a batch with the ref. 1680 has arrived to the case number 5.555.555 the first batch ready ( for ex. 1675 ) begings with the first free number .
2) it depends on the model : a batch can be made of 10 , 50 .... 350 ... 1000 watches ... and also on how many watches have been assembled and ready for being engraved ..
for ex. a datejust will be usually made in a batch much bigger than a chronograph ...
you can imagine this example :
a) one day 100 datejust have been produced and receive for ex. numbers from 6.111.111 to 6.111.210
b) the day after 300 GMT 1675 have been produced and receive numbers from 6.111.211 up to 6.111.510
c) one day later another 800 datejust are ready and receive numbers from 6.111.511 up to 6.112.310 and so on ....
footnote : I would bet ( but almost sure to win ... LLOOLL ) that from time to time some case numbers have not been used ( at random ) but left " blank " for security reasons ...
so don't be sure that if you see a watch with a case number ( for ex. 7.222.222 ) that the following number has been used !

[marcello pisani]

about a possible overlap of red and white dials :
if you consider batches with case numbers in a very close range ( for ex. you have batches of 1665 with 6.17 , 6.19 , 6.22 with a very small mutual gap of 20.000 - 30.000 numbers )
the dials overlap is extremely likely ...
on the contrary with a gap > than 300.000 watches the overlap ( some "white" dials in 3.9 watches ) is extremely unlikely ...
moreover in the first case ( 1665 ) the elapsed time between a batch and the following is roughly 3 weeks/one month .. but in the " red/white 1680 " case is by far higher ( 15-18 months )

[stevedssd]

This is one of my favourite threads, incredible amount of knowledge and great debate........Marcello an update on White Service dials would be great when you have time!

[marcello pisani]

Originally Posted by stevedssd

Marcello an update on White Service dials would be great when you have time!

you guys are really insatiable !! LLOOLL

[springer]

Originally Posted by marcello pisani

however my idea is based on these points :
1) most 1680 in the " 3.900.000 " have red dials
2) there is a break of more than 300.000 case numbers ( 15-18 months ) between 3.9 and 4.2 so for me it's very unlikely an overlap of white dials in the 3.900.000 range.
and don't forget that < a swallow doesn't make a summer > ... LLOOOLL
by the way " production dates based on serial numbers " are not certainly " guess-estimate " as I have a copy of internal Rolex production tables that give for every year
the exact range of cases produced ( for ex. from 1.234.555 to 1.401.999 in 196X) ;
so about production year I'm 100 % correct.
we know also from sure that case numbers were given progressively once watches had been assembled ( most times in batches )
and this is way I can estimate the quarter in which a certain case number has been assigned.

Marcello, they could have made red Subs for generations, which isn't something I disagree with. I would never place a specific serial number range for the end of one era of dials and the beginning of another. I've seen this before and it creates nothing but confusion in the hobby. Now that you have seen a white dialed 1680 with a 386XXXXX, which doesn't fit within your parameters, it seems that you have totally disregarded the fact. Dial eras are no more than a "guestimate" a close approximation to when dials were placed on specific watches.

If you look at the dial archives on VRF and the red Sub/serial number thread here on the Rolex forun, there is only one red Sub with a serial number higher than 386XXXX. Does that mean there were not 4XXXXXX red Subs, not necessarily since it seems to be the accepted range for the end of production. What I found was one red Sub with a serial number of 384XXXX and the other with a 39XXXXX serial number. I also found on white lettered Sub with a 41XXXXX serial number.

I disagree with your conclusions and to say you have documents to verify all this, well let's see it.

Why don't you email your Rolex document with production dates. I'd like to see that!

[marcello pisani]

Originally Posted by springer

Now that you have seen a white dialed 1680 with a 386XXXXX, which doesn't fit within your parameters, it seems that you have totally disregarded the fact. Dial eras are no more than a "guestimate" a close approximation to when dials were placed on specific watches.

Why don't you email your Rolex document with production dates. I'd like to see that!

as already written .. a sparrow doesn't make a spring .
about that tables .. sorry but I'm not obviously allowed to share them , either by mail or in a forum .

[springer]

Originally Posted by marcello pisani

as already written .. a sparrow doesn't make a spring .
about that tables .. sorry but I'm not obviously allowed to share them , either by mail or in a forum .

[marcello pisani]

Originally Posted by springer

I beg your pardon ?

[RC2]

Is mine a mark 3? Circa 78/79

[RC2]

Any help with what mark dial this is? Circa 78/79. Rich




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[RC2]

Any help with what mark dial this is? Circa 78/79. Rich




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[stevedssd]

Originally Posted by RC2

Any help with what mark dial this is? Circa 78/79. Rich

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Mk 2

[RC2]

Thanks. Quick response!


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[Batmanseadweller]

I just got this 1680,can u guys please tell me what mark is my dial.tq guys

[Beaumont Miller II]

Looks like a Beyler service dial.

[Batmanseadweller]

So this is replacement dial?

[stevedssd]

Very difficult to tell from the photo but Beaumont Miller II is spot on as usual. If you look very carefully the 6's in 660 are slightly open. It is a service replacement dial.