Gilt 1675 Question

[thomaspp]

Hey guys. Hope you are all well! I made a bit of an impulsive purchase here with a 6XX,XXX serial 1675 Gilt SCOC chapter ring with exclamation dial recently. To my untrained eye, the watch looks fabulous and I bought from a reputable vintage dealer.

Now, someone on the forum kindly called my attention to the handset on the watch (possible aftermarket?) and I would very much appreciate your thoughts on them and on the watch overall if you care to chime in. Good or bad, open to it all and I have time to seek recourse from the seller so appreciate the candor.

Many thanks in advance.










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[thomaspp]

Poorly taken macros of the hands. Thanks again.




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[TimeToGo]

Just curious, what does this reputable vintage dealer have to say about your concern?!

[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by TimeToGo

Just curious, what does this reputable vintage dealer have to say about your concern?!

I haven't asked yet. I'm traveling at the moment and hadn't given it a second thought until a friend PMd me here. Wanted to get some thoughts before going back but no issue in me asking I suppose.


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[rolstaff]

The case seems to be really good, but I also don´t like the handset.

Not sure, if the dial is relumed, but I think it should be ok.

For comparison a dial of my PCG from 1960......:

[brandrea]

Hi Thomas I'm by no means an "expert" but I've seen enough vintage pieces to say this one look great IMO.

I find that hands don't always exactly match the dial in a lot of cases, and that doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't original. I don't think anyone knows for sure why that is, but that's my opinion.

The dial looks gorgeous and the case looks strong with distinct bevels and strong crown guards. USA rivet bracelet to boot

Congratulations

Just my two cents.

[roh123]

Hands look fine to me. For what it is worth..

Did you get an explanation to go with the comment?

[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by roh123

Hands look fine to me. For what it is worth..



Did you get an explanation to go with the comment?

Thanks. The comment or idea is that some aftermarket hands have more material on the hands and show less of the metal frame. I do see a good number of gilt gmts with what appear to be more visible metal frame on the tip of hour hand but then I also see enough that are like mine (looking through old Eric Ku, HQ, Shear etc listings) to make me comfortable that the hands on mine are OK.

Originally Posted by rolstaff

The case seems to be really good, but I also don´t like the handset.



Not sure, if the dial is relumed, but I think it should be ok.



For comparison a dial of my PCG from 1960......:

Thanks. Nah, the dial is untouched in my opinion and patina is correct and very nice.

Originally Posted by brandrea

Hi Thomas I'm by no means an "expert" but I've seen enough vintage pieces to say this one look great IMO.



I find that hands don't always exactly match the dial in a lot of cases, and that doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't original. I don't think anyone knows for sure why that is, but that's my opinion.



The dial looks gorgeous and the case looks strong with distinct bevels and strong crown guards. USA rivet bracelet to boot



Congratulations



Just my two cents.

Thank you! The Watch looked / looks stunning to me.



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[springer]

Here's a dial/hand set from a gilt GMT, serial number 1.2 million. The second photo is the one thomaspp posted and included for comparison. Seems to be a discrepancy - at least with the hour hand.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by springer

Here's a dial/hand set from a gilt GMT, serial number 1.2 million. The second photo is the one thomaspp posted and included for comparison. Seems to be a discrepancy - at least with the hour hand.

Hands are different on chapter ring and non-chapter ring dials. Hour hand is flat and minute hand is longer.

[springer]

Originally Posted by roh123

Hands are different on chapter ring and non-chapter ring dials. Hour hand is flat and minute hand is longer.

Yes they are! That is correct. But, that wasn't the concern. He was concerned whether they were genuine.

[thomaspp]

Thank you JP for responding as I hoped you would.

Mystery to me! Here are some examples from known dealers. Not all in the same serial range however....

Is it possible there wasn't a lot of consistency on these hand sets in the 60s?










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[roh123]

Originally Posted by springer

Yes they are! That is correct. But, that wasn't the concern.

Sure. I just thought it was odd to compare different sets. Sorry if I missed what you wanted to point out.

There are also at least two different versions of chapter ring handsets. For me the hands look ok even though the lume might have been touched. It would be interesting to hear more details from the person who picked them out as aftermarket. I'd be happy to learn more.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by thomaspp

Thank you JP for responding as I hoped you would.

Mystery to me! Here are some examples from known dealers. Not all in the same serial range however....

Is it possible there wasn't a lot of consistency on these hand sets in the 60s?

You need to compare similar types. Non-chapter ring hands aren't interesting. To make it easy just look at the minute hand. If it does not reach the chapter ring the set is for sure changed. This is very, very common on early Rolex sports watches. Not only GMTs.

[thomaspp]

Originally Posted by roh123

You need to compare similar types. Non-chapter ring hands aren't interesting. To make it easy just look at the minute hand. If it does not reach the chapter ring the set is for sure changed. This is very, very common on early Rolex sports watches. Not only GMTs.

Thanks. You've just given me homework for the next few hours... lol




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[themaninblack]

I've always thought the original minute hands had a beveled profile, but there appear to be variations, I have seen original watches where the minute hand was short of the outer ring marking. I received this lecture from a well known Rolex expert about early subs who later conceded that original minute hands on ref. 5508 subs usually did not touch the outer ring.

[5512vs5513]

Originally Posted by springer

Here's a dial/hand set from a gilt GMT, serial number 1.2 million. The second photo is the one thomaspp posted and included for comparison. Seems to be a discrepancy - at least with the hour hand.

For what it's worth, the thicker hands are on a tritium dial, while thomaspp GMT is a Swiss only dial. From looking at various pictures, I've noticed that Swiss only dials tend to have thin hands, while EARLY Tritium dials hands are thicker. I noticed this change started on 'Double Swiss Underline GMTs', so in theory, it would make sense that the hands changed as lume material was changing from radium into tritum.

Maybe tritium glowed better than radium, thus less lume was needed? Or new regulations kicked in by then, and in order not to go over that amount (t<25) they used less lume, and made the hands thicker to keep the same size proportions.

I am no expert either, far from it, so maybe I am just talking complete and utter none-sense

Just my observations + two cents

[waspy1]

Do the dial and hands still glow? I also have a exclamation dial GMT and they glow pretty well.


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[roh123]

Originally Posted by waspy1

Do the dial and hands still glow? I also have a exclamation dial GMT and they glow pretty well.

Yes. Many glow.

[Elle84]

Hi

This is mine, if can help.

the serial is pretty near.

Your hands must be checked better.. hard to say, but i dont like the hands of hour/minute, the small 24h looks ok.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Elle84

Hi

This is mine, if can help.

the serial is pretty near.

Your hands must be checked better.. hard to say, but i dont like the hands of hour/minute, the small 24h looks ok.

Yours most likely have a later set from the mid 60´s. Very common that they are replaced early.

Here is my old one which also had the hands replaced.

[Elle84]

Nice to know more about it! Thank you Roh123

This kind of hands have the minute hand longer that go over the Chapter ring?

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Elle84

Nice to know more about it! Thank you Roh123

This kind of hands have the minute hand longer that go over the Chapter ring?

To me they should reach. There's also a difference on the hour hand which is flat and not curved on early models.

[thomaspp]

Hey guys and gals. I thought I would revive this thread just to update those who are interested and to thank you all for your time and thoughts on this as I have spoken/bothered a number of you. THANK YOU all very much for taking the time to speak to me or exchange PMs.

I have spoken to a great number of folks in the last several weeks and frankly don't have a 100% clear answer on this, but:

1. A good number of very reputable dealers (including the seller who would be happy to take it back with full refund BTW (which I turned down)) state/suggest the watch is correct and the hour hand is a perfectly fine flat hour hand which is what appears would be right for this serial.

2. Some of you active on TRF do not believe the hour hand is correct while others of you do.

I discovered that the watch was sold by HQ Milton and listed right here on TRF in 2013 (see here: http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=312687 ). I did not buy this watch from them however, but rather acquired it from a dealer that is close to me in South Florida and he did say that the base of hour hand had been restored when he got it two years prior by strengthening the back of the hand with material but the Mercedes part of the hour hand has not been touched.

Anyway folks, that's the update. The reality is that it seems with some vintage references and minor details, nobody might have a clear answer! Best regards

[roh123]

Great news buddy!

Enjoy