Inaccurate descriptions - HQ Milton

[wsfarrell]

Originally Posted by swish77

HQ Milton is usually very good with its descriptions, and the photos show everything. I think the OP's example is more of an aberration than the norm.

I strongly disagree. Here are two 14060's that were recently for sale at HQ. Both cases were described as "excellent." The crown guards on the first one are okay. The crown guards on the second one have been polished down to nubs. This is not at all uncommon at HQ Milton.

[Ssunnylee24]

Terms used in “conditions” should not vary on ages of the watch.

[huba01]

Bought and sold quite a few watches from Jacek when he worked at HQ and has always been very satisfied with their service, never bought from Scott though.
Still my no 1 dealer for vintages rolex

[1675-David]

When all is said and done there are plenty of images and the price reflects the condition of the watch, the description is not all together what it should be but HQM makes money by selling watches so the usual “ buyer beware, do your homework” mantra applies.

[zapokee]

Originally Posted by 1675-David

When all is said and done there are plenty of images and the price reflects the condition of the watch, the description is not all together what it should be but HQM makes money by selling watches so the usual “ buyer beware, do your homework” mantra applies.

True.

As with ADs, if you build a relationship with a particular vintage dealer, that's when they start feeding you the really good stuff that never makes it to the website.

[rootbeer7]

Originally Posted by wsfarrell

I strongly disagree. Here are two 14060's that were recently for sale at HQ. Both cases were described as "excellent." The crown guards on the first one are okay. The crown guards on the second one have been polished down to nubs. This is not at all uncommon at HQ Milton.

Descriptions are subjective. Both are excellent; as in free of scratches and marks and look excellent.
The inaccuracy occurs in the specifics. They are both excellent, but one no longer retains its original lines. To the majority, the difference is minute and irrelevant. To the collector/connoisseur it is important and therefore we know or should know the difference.

[Wahlberg]

Regarding the crown guards, this is something I have seen with a lot of dealers. It's so tricky. I'm not going to show the picture but there is a 1675 online (or at least recently) where the crown guards were polished somehow from the inside, the material there was gone and all wonky and pointy.

Originally Posted by zapokee

True.

As with ADs, if you build a relationship with a particular vintage dealer, that's when they start feeding you the really good stuff that never makes it to the website.

So what am I missing out on? If you mean really clean 1675s those probably still don't come cheap.

[zapokee]

Originally Posted by Wahlberg

If you mean really clean 1675s those probably still don't come cheap.

That's right. High-end vintage Rolex is never going to be cheap, no matter who you know.

Very interesting discussion, guys.

[Wahlberg]

Originally Posted by zapokee

That's right. High-end vintage Rolex is never going to be cheap, no matter who you know.

Very interesting discussion, guys.

That I definitely understand then. Also people who have made requests and those watches don't show up online.


I find it very difficult to even find a clean example or something that I truly like anymore compared to +4-5 years ago. I see beat up 25-45k USD submariners or GMTs and I wonder who is buying these?

It's not only 8-15k USD vintage subs or GMTs with flaws, even the higher end ones have mismatched or altered lugs and crown guards or painted hands to match everything. Even the PCG ones are risky in my opinion. Only when you pay TOP dollar, then you can easily find the perfect specimen. But that's like me saying, I got the money to buy a 250 GTO get me the most perfect one in the world and it will show up within a month in my garage.

[mountainjogger]

Originally Posted by springer

The excessive pitting found on the back of the case would make this case far from being considered excellent by anyone that I deal with in the hobby. The case is poorly described in the listing.

Thank you for weighing in Springer. I have revised my opinion based on your experience.

I consider you the gold standard of vintage dealers. If I am ever lucky enough to have the funds to purchase my dream watch, I will be giving you a call.

Stay safe.

[330ci]

the difference between 10 years ago and now is staggering. When I was looking for my second Rolex, I wanted a cheap red sub, some paint loss at the dials edge didn't really bother me. One of the vintage dealers I spoke with said he would never sell a watch like that to the public, he would sell it to a different dealer as he didn't want to hurt his image with shoddy watches. now it seems most dealers will sell anything they can get their hands on, which I understand. but HQM was known for rare, top condition, and hard to get pieces. That's why I assumed people paid a 15-20% premium, the pieces posted in this thread hardly seem to live up to those standards.

[Wahlberg]

Originally Posted by 330ci

but HQM was known for rare, top condition, and hard to get pieces.

I bought from HQ and I've spoken and met both but it seems like it was all Jacek who has the magic. He's the guy.

And the market has definitely changed in regard to quality or what is out there. I'm sure there is still a lot out there but it seems slower and more tight.

[330ci]

Originally Posted by Wahlberg

I bought from HQ and I've spoken and met both but it seems like it was all Jacek who has the magic. He's the guy.

And the market has definitely changed in regard to quality or what is out there. I'm sure there is still a lot out there but it seems slower and more tight.

I've always been a fan of them, and still am, just kinda makes me sad seeing them selling average pieces. I guess i'm getting older too though and probably need to stop living in the past.

used to see vintage submariners at coin shows all the time, the first Rolex I tried on was a 2 tone sub, it was $4500, and they had a Matte 5513 next to it for $3,500. Got to try on an all original 6536/1 4 line when I was 18 or 19 talking with a vintage dealer who just happened to have it lying in his safe. I believe it was $50k at the time. I can't imagine too many dealers have even seen one in person. Passed on numerous watches because they weren't original, biggest regret is probably a 6542 I was offered for $1,500 with a refinished dial and missing the bezel.
So many shoulda coulda wouldas. Now to live with the present market and realize that society in general values these watches more than I do at this point. Glad I got a modest collection assembled when I did lol

[BigAppleBill]

It’s been my experience that several online watch dealers, even the best ones, use the description “Like New” and “Excellent” far more than they should. My advice is to study the photos and ask questions. And *always* assume a watch has been polished unless it specifically states “unpolished”, and even then, check the photos closely or request additional photos. Caveat Emptor!

[swish77]

Originally Posted by wsfarrell

I strongly disagree. Here are two 14060's that were recently for sale at HQ. Both cases were described as "excellent." The crown guards on the first one are okay. The crown guards on the second one have been polished down to nubs. This is not at all uncommon at HQ Milton.

The term “excellent” is subjective. That’s why there are photos. I actually agree with your assessment of those two Subs, but others might just see nice shiny Rolexes and think they look really nice.

As I said, HQ is not perfect, but it is a high-volume dealer and the vast majority of its watches are more or less described accurately, much better than many other dealers.

If I had a dollar for every misleading or flat-out false description of dealers’ or private seller’s’ sales listings I see every day, I’d be super rich. HQ isn’t a dealer I’d put in that category.

[Aceldama]

Excellent for a watch of this age. WITH clear pictures. If your buying based on written description, I’d save my money.


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[arguscanis]

Some sellers seem to take great pains to describe articles accurately.
Some do not.
I will generally patronize the former.
Caveat Emptor

[forgedblades]

These guys are rock solid. You see the condition by the photos. Did you think to call them and ask about it or just bash them here with nothing more than boredom apparently driving your comments.

[Sirschwag]

I think the price reflects the condition as well, if it was a pristine case they would be asking more.

[zapokee]

Originally Posted by forgedblades

These guys are rock solid.

Concur. I always dealt with Jacek, who has now moved on, but my experience with them has been consistently outstanding.

[Eric88]

I'm a repeat customer of HQ Milton and have been to their shop back in the Jacek/Kazu days. I think this one watch is probably a one off miss. I believe they are a very solid vintage watch business.

[springer]

Originally Posted by forgedblades

These guys are rock solid. You see the condition by the photos. Did you think to call them and ask about it or just bash them here with nothing more than boredom apparently driving your comments.

I think the lack of an accurate description in the listing it what drove the OP's comments. And frankly, most of us agree.

[chocopeluche]

cool to see an example of the "pitting" problem that is often cited as the motivation for moving to 904L steel

but their condition remarks always say pretty much the same thing, just look at the pictures.

[joli160]

This is exactly what is making the vintage world a field i did not yet venture in.
Only a few buyers are able to asses a vintage piece properly.
I don’t have a clue about which dial or insert belongs in which watch and would rely solely on a sellers description.
Determining the quality of a vintage watch from pictures makes it even more hard for the general buyer.

An accurate and honest description is necessary, luckily many good sellers disclose everything, but mentioning this case as excellent ...

[harry in montreal]

The pitting is obvious, but I agree with brothers herein that it should say that the Watch cannot pass a pressure test. Cannot? But would you, even, try....

[77T]

Originally Posted by springer

I think the lack of an accurate description in the listing it what drove the OP's comments. And frankly, most of us agree.

That’s it in a nutshell. This listing may represent a poor editing job of the boilerplate copy used by some sellers.

A quick call may yield a “yikes, thanks” type of reply and an edit of the listing. But all reasonable people would agree that the case is not in excellent condition where the sun doesn’t shine.


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[brandrea]

Originally Posted by joli160

This is exactly what is making the vintage world a field i did not yet venture in.
Only a few buyers are able to asses a vintage piece properly.
I don’t have a clue about which dial or insert belongs in which watch and would rely solely on a sellers description.
Determining the quality of a vintage watch from pictures makes it even more hard for the general buyer.

An accurate and honest description is necessary, luckily many good sellers disclose everything, but mentioning this case as excellent ...

This is me as well.

I have no real ability to determine for myself, what’s what in the vintage world of Rolex. I would completely rely on the seller, photos, descriptions and conversations to make a determination.

[roh123]

Would you buy a used car like that? Relying fully on the seller to disclose everything objectively. There’s a big difference between deceiving someone and selling something without disclosing any possible flaw. Everyone has their own view what is acceptable or not on a watch and basically no 40-50 year old watch is perfect.

In my world you need to know the basics prior to spending 4-5-6 figures on used items. No?

The most important thing when listing a watch for sale is having great pictures for a potential buyer to examine. Something that this seller has.

[joli160]

Yes, you need to know the basics. But with vintage it’ all about the details. That,s where I get lost.

Expecting a vintage piece to be perfect is not realistic but when paying top dollar from a top seller it’s not to much to ask for an accurate description.

Thanks to TRF including your posts I am learning slowly

[airansun]

Given everything I’ve seen over the years, I’d be reluctant to place all my trust in any vintage watch dealer. Between ‘mistakes’, hype and obfuscation, almost all of them disappoint from time to time. If I’m going to spend five figures on a watch, I’m going to spend much time learning what to look for in that reference. By the time I buy something, I will have looked at dozens, if not hundreds, of examples of the reference.

It’s possible to educate oneself enough to venture into vintage Rolexes as there is a lot of information online, particularly here with the Rolex Reference Library Forum. But, you really have to study those photographs.

I’ve managed to pick up a few vintage Subs from eBay, all pieces that have been subsequently verified by experts I trust. This saved me thousands over what dealers would have charged for them. And now, I have my own independent knowledge base.