Rolex with odd dial

[Sixeven]

I came across this Rolex with a very odd dial. At first I would have assumed a poor attempt fake but I was able to remove the case back to discover an original Rolex cal. 1530 movement. The dial Rolex font appears correct but very very small. There is no other print found. Given the 1530 movement I was thinking perhaps it was a pre-precision print air king but I thought those were only steel cased. This appears to be 18k. The engraving on the inside case back looks appropriate. On closer inspection the finish on the dial and hour markers look excellent. Maybe a poor redial? But why? It’s so different as to not even look original which makes me think it may have been purposeful. Any thoughts would be appreciated! Pictures to follow…

[Sixeven]

Sorry getting these to the appropriate file size was challenging.

[TimeToGo]

.
Welcome to the Forum.

As you mention, it is a redial. Common back in the days..

[Dan S]

Minute markers also misaligned, no SWISS, blobby lume.

[Sixeven]

Yes, it’s odd. It’s a 18k gold case. Not an inexpensive watch in its day. Let’s assume someone had it serviced to the point it needed a new dial. I would be pissed if that’s what the watch repair guy presented me when he finished.

Here, take my gold Rolex and make it look fake with a ridiculously poor attempt at a Rolex dial???

So confused…..

Anyone want to take a guess on what model this was before it was abused?

[offrdmania]

Repainting of a dial was a very common practice back in the 60s through the 80s. A Rolex watch was a tool back then and most opted for the cheaper alternative when it came to repair. It looks like a washed dial which was badly repainted, most likely by a local watchmaker. So much corrosion on that watch. Are you sure its 18K? It sure looks gold capped and plated to me. I dont see any 18K hallmarks where they should be. Lets see a pic of the case back, inside and out. That will tell us if its solid gold or not. Unfortunately, the pics arent good enough to verify.
If it is gold capped or plated, with the amount of corrosion everywhere, the repair bills would greatly exceed the watch value unfortunately.

[Sixeven]

I believe it is plated. I found a case stamp between the lugs "40" and the mark KB. I believe the 40 indicates a 40 micron gold plating thickness. The case is badly dented and scored and also very dirty. Unfortunately, the model number is worn and cannot be read. The serial number is also worn but I can make out that it is 6 digits and starts with a 5. based upon that and the movement I believe the watch was made late 50s to 1960.

So, a plated gold case with 1530 movement must be a Air King. Probably model number 5500 or 5506 that had a terrible dial replacement done in the past. The dial was totally throwing me off.

The rotor corrosion suggests it maybe leaked so maybe that explains the redial. It does run surprising well so maybe the watch repairman wasn't a complete hack.

Considering the condition I would imagine little value is left to work with here.

[TuRo]

Welcome. Yes unfortunately a reprinted dial. Proper dial can be bought fairly cheaply though...do you have both lug end engravings pls ?

[springer]

Good luck and enjoy the watch.

[alwayshere]

As Matt has said.

Show pics of the backcase and the clear picture of the back of the watch.

Looking at some of the corrosion and wear, I suspect this is a gold cap not solid gold. there is usually markings if its indeed 18ct solid gold.

The lugs are toothpick thin too.

[CTech]

As others have said, photos of the case engravings between the lugs and photos of the case back should clear up any mysteries about model number, approximate age, etc.

In the mean time, it might be a 5506 gold capped Air-King, like this one:

https://www.beverlyhillsvintagerolex...ic-1960s-ra177

with a similar style of dial markers:

[MILGAUSS88]

Gold capped watches have exposed steel on the back of the lugs, like this:

[CTech]

Originally Posted by MILGAUSS88

Gold capped watches have exposed steel on the back of the lugs

Yes, but this still looks like a gold capped case to me with either some extra gold plating or maybe some thin gold veneers stuck on.

Look at this lug and you can see what I think is the outline of the gold cap on the outside profile and you can also see some corroded base metal where the gold on the underside of the lug has broken away:

[MILGAUSS88]

Gold capped is different than gold filled. Gold capped is 240 microns thick and is on steel, and I have never seen one worn through. Gold filled is typically 80-100 microns thick and is on brass, and I have seen holes before they were ever worn.

Not sure if they made a gold filled OP. I know they made a GF bubbleback.
Steel doesn't turn green, brass under the gold does.
It could just be dirt that turned green or it would have to be gold filled, not gold capped.

[MILGAUSS88]

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=772359

Here is an earlier discussion on gold filled Rolex cases. Saying that they were not made since early 50's, which this watch would be later than.

[offrdmania]

Rolex did make gold plated watches from the early 60s on into the 80s. A lot of times you will either find the letter P or the word Applique, usually found on the accompanying bracelet

[MILGAUSS88]

Originally Posted by offrdmania

Rolex did make gold plated watches from the early 60s on into the 80s. A lot of times you will either find the letter P or the word Applique, usually found on the accompanying bracelet

Plate is different than gold filled which is different than gold capped or gold shell.

Plate is what you find on $10 quartz watches. You will not find it on a Rolex.

Do you have the reference number of the watch that you are thinking about?

[CTech]

Originally Posted by MILGAUSS88

Gold capped watches have exposed steel on the back of the lugs, like this:

This statement is wrong.

Although the majority of gold capped watches have exposed stainless steel on the underside of the lugs, there are several from various manufacturers where additional gold has been added to the underside of the lugs, and one of these is the Rolex 5506.

One of the reasons why I suggested that the OP’s watch is a 5506 is because of the gold on the underside of the lugs, as I think that might be the only Rolex model made in such a way.

Here is a link to a 5506 currently for sale and you can clearly see the gold cap at the side of the lugs together with gold on the underside of the lugs, exactly as the OP’s watch:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/18542138261...SABEgJc-fD_BwE

and another link to a past 5506 sale shows the same style of construction with gold on the underside of the lugs:

https://coinwatchco.com/product/1960...explorer-dial/

With regard to the corrosion, I believe the gold alloy used for the gold cap was relatively high in copper, and I think it is the copper in the alloy reacting with chlorine atoms (possibly from sweat or seawater) causing the corrosion at the interface of the gold cap and the stainless steel substrate and producing that characteristic green/blue deposit of copper chloride.

If you look closely at one of the lugs of the watch in the first link, you can see some similar deposits on the outside of the lug and also on the case between the lugs. This is much less severe than on the OP’s watch, but in my opinion it is the same corrosion mechanism, just at an earlier stage:

[crowncollection]

Originally Posted by offrdmania

Repainting of a dial was a very common practice back in the 60s through the 80s. A Rolex watch was a tool back then and most opted for the cheaper alternative when it came to repair. It looks like a washed dial which was badly repainted, most likely by a local watchmaker. So much corrosion on that watch. Are you sure its 18K? It sure looks gold capped and plated to me. I dont see any 18K hallmarks where they should be. Lets see a pic of the case back, inside and out. That will tell us if its solid gold or not. Unfortunately, the pics arent good enough to verify.
If it is gold capped or plated, with the amount of corrosion everywhere, the repair bills would greatly exceed the watch value unfortunately.

Looks like a good capped version, would have a steel case back
With a redial


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[77T]

Originally Posted by crowncollection

Looks like a good capped version, would have a steel case back
With a redial


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agree - and think the dial is an old generic disc. If the OP removed the dial, he isn’t likely to see a proper Rolex/Singer plate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[MILGAUSS88]

Now that we have a reference:
Gold capped is different than gold plated or gold filled.
The back of the watch says 40 microns, this would be a heavy gold plate or a light gold fill.

The green is the brass, underneath. Steel would not turn green, which it would have to be if it was capped.

[offrdmania]

Originally Posted by MILGAUSS88

Plate is different than gold filled which is different than gold capped or gold shell.

Plate is what you find on $10 quartz watches. You will not find it on a Rolex.

Do you have the reference number of the watch that you are thinking about?

Give me some time to search. We have had a few threads about gold plated Rolex watches in the past. They do exist. The case will say 40 microns and the bracelets usually had a big letter P next to the end link number and the clasp would have the word Applique or Plaque on it which means plated.

Here is one old thread, ill look for others

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthre...ghlight=micron

[offrdmania]

Here a clear picture of a case marking that you'll find on a plated Rolex. The plating will even be on the underside of the the lugs. Case back is usually not plated just like the capped models.

[CTech]

Originally Posted by offrdmania

Here a clear picture of a case marking that you'll find on a plated Rolex. The plating will even be on the underside of the the lugs.

This is yet another incorrect statement. Please stop posting things like this that just confuse matters.

The photos you have attached are for a gold capped model with gold on the underside of the lugs, exactly like every 5506 made.

The 40 stamped into the gold cap is nothing to do with plating thickness and I believe it is part of the hallmark and denotes the purity of the gold, in this case 40%, which is about 10k, the minimum amount that can be sold as gold in the US. The rest of the alloy will be made up of a mixture of copper, silver, zinc, etc.

The OP's watch is almost certainly a gold capped 5506 (which has gold on the underside of the lugs as normal) with a repainted dial. It's as simple as that so there is no need for endless searches to try and justify a view that it is gold plated, nor is there any reason to look for brass parts to explain the blue/green corrosion deposits.

The high copper content of the gold alloy used for the cap leads to corrosion at the interface of the gold cap and the stainless steel case, so it is nothing to do with brass, gold plating, gold filled, etc.

[Sixeven]

Thank you everyone for the input. As I had said earlier, the model number and serial number were worn away. However, I was able to determine the serial number was 6 digits and started with a 5. The movement and serial number would date this late 50s to 1960. As others have said, I believe this to be a AirKing 5506 with a terrible redial. The plated/capped case, hands, and crystal are all consistent with a 5506. The case is marked with the "40" and "KB" as shown on the recent pictures. The dial is the outlier.

Unfortunately, The watch case is in rough shape and very dirty. It was found jumbled into a mix of assorted estate jewelry and caught my eye due to the odd dial. Like I first said, I thought it to be fake until I discovered the genuine movement. In a testament to Rolex movements, the watch still works and keeps reasonable time. Perhaps I might make it a project to get it a new dial and see what I can make of it although a complete rebuild is not likely cost effective.

It proved to be a fun little mystery for a bit and I learned about capped/plated watch cases. A win win!

[offrdmania]

Originally Posted by CTech

This is yet another incorrect statement. Please stop posting things like this that just confuse matters.

The photos you have attached are for a gold capped model with gold on the underside of the lugs, exactly like every 5506 made.

The 40 stamped into the gold cap is nothing to do with plating thickness and I believe it is part of the hallmark and denotes the purity of the gold, in this case 40%, which is about 10k, the minimum amount that can be sold as gold in the US. The rest of the alloy will be made up of a mixture of copper, silver, zinc, etc.

The OP's watch is almost certainly a gold capped 5506 (which has gold on the underside of the lugs as normal) with a repainted dial. It's as simple as that so there is no need for endless searches to try and justify a view that it is gold plated, nor is there any reason to look for brass parts to explain the blue/green corrosion deposits.

The high copper content of the gold alloy used for the cap leads to corrosion at the interface of the gold cap and the stainless steel case, so it is nothing to do with brass, gold plating, gold filled, etc.

What I posted is not a 5506. It is an entry level 6694

Just like this Omega with 20 microns

If I recall, KD, BF or MD inside the little crest indicates gold plated with a micron thickness. We can agree to disagree

[CTech]

My statement is still correct:

"The photos you have attached are for a gold capped model with gold on the underside of the lugs, exactly like every 5506 made."

I didn't say you had posted a 5506, I said you had posted another gold capped model with gold on the underside of the lugs.

The one you posted, the 6694 is not gold plated. It is gold capped and, like the 5506, appears to have gold on the underside of the lugs.

Look at the underside of more 5506 and 6694 models and you will see the relatively thick gold cap very clearly, like this one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/275941109655

[offrdmania]

Originally Posted by CTech

My statement is still correct:

"The photos you have attached are for a gold capped model with gold on the underside of the lugs, exactly like every 5506 made."

I didn't say you had posted a 5506, I said you had posted another gold capped model with gold on the underside of the lugs.

The one you posted, the 6694 is not gold plated. It is gold capped and, like the 5506, appears to have gold on the underside of the lugs.

Look at the underside of more 5506 and 6694 models and you will see the relatively thick gold cap very clearly, like this one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/275941109655

The 6694 I posted above does not have a thick gold cap edge on the underside of the lug. And the plate is actually flaking off under the bezel

Here is the inner case back from the 5506 you posted that even says "plaque" 40 microns

[CTech]

That 6694 you posted is intriguing, but I still believe that it is largely gold capped.

The area on the underside near the 9 o'clock position shows a relatively thick gold layer and so I believe that part is a gold cap about 200 to 240 microns thick.

The reason you cannot see the gold cap clearly on the outside of the most of the lugs is because the soldering to join the gold cap to the piece of gold on the underside of the lug is still in good condition and the join has been polished quite well.

However, if you look at the 12 o'clock lug you can see the gold cap quite clearly, especially where there is some damage on the inside of the lug.

[CTech]

The KB 40 markings on a typical gold capped case are still a puzzle and I accept that it is not an indication of gold purity as I had previously posted as the gold cap tests at somewhere between 14k and 18 k, much higher than the 10k I had thought.

Those same marks appear on 5506 cases which are definitely gold capped, so, if that mark means there is gold plating on the case, where is it?

Your photo of the 6694 does appear to show some plating peeling off near the bezel so maybe the area between the lugs is not covered by the gold cap on that model, but might be covered by the cap on later models such as the 5506, 5520, etc. Another area that could be plated is the vertical section of the case near where the case back screws on, as that appears gold colored on some models and definitely cannot be part of the gold cap.

Without access to the production documents it is impossible to say how exactly these cases were made to that level of detail, but I think it is quite likely that certain parts of a gold capped case are plated for cosmetic purposes.

With respect to the 5506 case back, you have omitted an important part of the inscription. It actually says the Lunette is 40 micron plated, and that is thought to refer to the bezel. Lunette can be loosely translated as crescent shaped or half-moon shaped, so I think that is a description of the gold plated bezel, not of the case itself.