Safes?

[dseig001]

what do you guys use to keep your high value items in check? Looking at something that can hold a fair amount of watches

[Ghost410]

If size isn’t limited, AMSEC BF

[EEpro]

ISM Super Treasury or Diamond Vault. Used for the price of a fake safe.

I got such a good deal on mine I paid $2,000 just to have it moved with me.

https://firstsecuritysafe.com/produc...-safes-copy-2/

[offrdmania]

Gun safes are usually the best unless you buy a high end jewelry safe which is usually built to the same specifications. Jewelry safes are usually quite a bit more expensive because they are much fancier on the inside whereas a gun safe is very utilitarian..
There are different grades and levels. Fire rated is best. Manual combination locks and heavy steel gauge construction is what you want to look for otherwise you are just buying a locked storage locker.
Electronic combo locks are convenient but recently, a safe company got into major hot water after it complied to a "request" by the FBI to give up a master combo code without a warrant to enter a safe without permission. A manual lock cant be hacked into once you set your own code in it.

[Tools]

A good safe will have a minimum rating for both breaking in and fire resistance, it also should be bolted to the floor or wall structure. If somebody can easily pick up and carry your valuables away to work on later, it isn't much different than having them laying on your dresser.

I think that fire rating is very important because it is as likely as burglary.

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by offrdmania

Electronic combo locks are convenient but recently, a safe company got into major hot water after it complied to a "request" by the FBI to give up a master combo code without a warrant to enter a safe without permission. A manual lock cant be hacked into once you set your own code in it.

That safe company has reached out after that incident and offered instructions to delete that master combination if the owner chooses. Still a shit deal, but at least there’s something you can do about it.

[Blansky]

Safes for robberies is a consideration but the fire ratings are pretty suspect in real life situations.

In Northern California fires as well as in Hawaii, people would often find the contents of the safe destroyed/melted.

Just something to consider.

[pickettt]

Originally Posted by Blansky

Safes for robberies is a consideration but the fire ratings are pretty suspect in real life situations.

In Northern California fires as well as in Hawaii, people would often find the contents of the safe destroyed/melted.

Just something to consider.

I have a family member who is a fire captain, and he says the same.

[airchitect]

Totally depends on what’s stored in them but obviously items combust at different temps. Pretty low temps will destroy anything digital, higher temps will wreck paper, and coins and pew pews are cool to much higher temps. I say all of this to say, if you are storing anything that isn’t metal be sure to layer ie add insulation. I store all digital items in a small fire safe within my 2hr rated safe.


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[swils8610]

Get a gun safe with fire protection. Manual locking. Skip the electronic key pads. I like Browning’a the best.


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[piratfisk]

I'll also throw into the mix that a good safe can also be a well-hidden safe. I don't have the space for a refrigerator-sized gun safe, so I got the best safe I could find given my space requirement & it's hidden. Three people know where it is & one doesn't know the code. Multiple layers of security are also helpful... gated entry to building area, cameras, alarms, etc.

[swils8610]

Also, whatever size safe you think you need go bigger!


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[Gab27]

I have a B-rate safe upstairs that has a UL Class 350 1-hour fire rating and a TL-30 in the basement with a UL Class 350 2-hour fire.

For many of the folks on this forum who are purchasing a safe to store watches in, I would highly recommend looking for something that has an appropriate amount of burglary protection as many of the safes sold to consumers are relatively light in this regard. In many cases, a legitimate high-security safe is something very much worth investing in IMO, especially since used commercial-grade high-security safes can be purchased for pretty reasonable prices.

As a 'fair amount of watches' can pretty quickly reach six digits, in your case I would recommend possibly considering something with a TL-15 rating or higher. If you need it for fire protection, UL Class 350 (or comparable) is where you want to be for non-electronics (safes that protect electronics use a different rating and typically way more fire material given they are more sensitive to heat damage than paper documents.)

[NYMike]

Originally Posted by EEpro

ISM Super Treasury or Diamond Vault. Used for the price of a fake safe.

I got such a good deal on mine I paid $2,000 just to have it moved with me.

https://firstsecuritysafe.com/produc...-safes-copy-2/

Ha - that's funny. I have one in my office - It weighs 7000lbs.

I think TL-15 rated safes are perfectly good for most things and aren't so difficult to install.

ISM super treasury can be insured into the millions. Maybe overkill with the weight and all.

[dseig001]

I’m just looking to lock up my watches and jewelry. I have a walk in closet I can install it in.

I love the wolf models but I was hoping to keep it under 20k

[Blansky]

Originally Posted by dseig001

I’m just looking to lock up my watches and jewelry. I have a walk in closet I can install it in.

I love the wolf models but I was hoping to keep it under 20k

For 20K I'd just put a false compartment in the closet. Personally I've always found that toys to hold your toys end up with your toys owning you.

As for fire ratings, I believe they are either 1 or 2 hours. So ask yourself if you can actually cool the safe down in 1 or 2 hours. Maybe in a single house fire you can. In the fires that devastated areas and neighborhoods, people didn't get back to their homes in a few days. So generally the interiors of the safes were toast.

As for a robbery, is it home invasion or a break in. In a home invasions when they ask for combination are you going to give it to them??? In a break in they have usually a limited time to find what they want especially if you have an alarm. So is hidden compartment better than a massive hunk of steel sitting somewhere that cost a ton of money.

My opinion is, keep stuff in a safety deposit box, and have a hidden compartment in the house for jewelry. YMMV

As for weapon safes, that's generally a different discussion all together.

[EEpro]

Originally Posted by dseig001

I’m just looking to lock up my watches and jewelry. I have a walk in closet I can install it in.

I love the wolf models but I was hoping to keep it under 20k

Don't spent that kind of money on a silly fake "safe" from Wolf with no rating just because it is pretty or has winders in it. Those are just overbuilt jewelry boxes.

If you're in Riverside you should Taha at First Security Safe in LA and chat about a pre owned UL rated safe. (213) 627-0422

[dddrees]

Originally Posted by swils8610

Get a gun safe with fire protection. Manual locking. Skip the electronic key pads. I like Browning’a the best.


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Another plug for Browning for the following reasons. For one they make as good as rated safe as Amsec at the TL 30 level.

The other big reason is because their organization systems are one of if not the best for your typical gun safe.

Their DPX system on the door if you store your longer items correctly you can increase the number of longer items you can secure in their safe.

Their Axis shelving system not only works like refrigerator shelving which by itself is a huge improvement over the conventional shelving you will see in a safe but the fact they sell so many different types of shelving and drawers means you vastly increased the possibility you can actually configure your safe to specifically suit your needs. You will get a standard package which for some might actually be what you need, but like in my case I found it best to buy some because like I said I was configuring based on what I was securing and not the standard package. Frankly that's much better than any third party tools you can buy. At least the ones I've seen anyway.

As long as you are looking for something at the TL30 level security and below they are most definitely something worth considering. Granted that system will cost you a bit more and shelving cost have almost doubled since I got mine, it's still worth taking a look at.

[Gab27]

Originally Posted by dseig001

I’m just looking to lock up my watches and jewelry. I have a walk in closet I can install it in.

I love the wolf models but I was hoping to keep it under 20k

I can't speak to all of the Wolf models, but the listed weight I've seen for some of their products would lead me to believe that these safes, while 'pretty', would provide a very limited amount of burglary protection and probably would not fare well against a more intense attack or a prolonged at all.

You can get a new smaller high-quality TL-30 safe for under $5,000 and a medium-sized one for under $10,000. These are more commercial-oriented, so they are not pretty, but they do what a safe is supposed to do. Heck, you can often find used TRTL-rated safes (like some of the products produced by ISM) for under $10,000.

If you want a 'pretty' safe that provides good burglary protection, Brown (the Man safe, with upgraded armor, if you want one specifically for watches) or Graffunder's Emperor and Fortress models are worth a look, IMHO.

[Gab27]

Originally Posted by Blansky

As for fire ratings, I believe they are either 1 or 2 hours. So ask yourself if you can actually cool the safe down in 1 or 2 hours. Maybe in a single house fire you can. In the fires that devastated areas and neighborhoods, people didn't get back to their homes in a few days. So generally the interiors of the safes were toast.

That isn't how UL fire ratings work.

The time you see with a legitimate fire safe with a UL rating refers to the time it is in the furnace while the furnace is actively on. The safe must still protect the contents not just during this active heating period, but also during the cool-down period while still inside of the furnace, which can take many hours--several days, in some cases, of withstanding high heat. If any of the internal temperature sensors rise above the internal temp threshold at any point during this process (350F, 150F, or 125F depending on the test), the safe fails. If the contents they put inside of the safe before the test are not usable after the test is completed, the safe fails. A safe with a UL Class 350 2-hour rating has a test temperature of 1850F. A safe like this can protect contents from horrific fires (note--Class 350 is structured around paper, whereas Class 125/150 is structured around electronics/media. In the case of protecting watches, cash, jewelry, bullion, or important paper documents, Class 350 is great.)

Some UL-rated fire safes are also tested with a separate impact test. This is to simulate what might happen if the safe falls through the floor of a home. This is done when the safe is at its peak temperature, where it is dropped 30 feet, returned to the furnace, and must then still complete a fire test.

Many of the safes consumers are buying are not UL-rated fire safes (or ones that went through an equivalent test). These safes may not have a rating at all (and just claim to be "fire resistant" or "fire proof"), have some rating made up by the safe company, or have some 3rd party rating that uses a testing methodology that is nowhere near as grueling as the standard set by the UL. The construction of many of these safes are often just fire board/blankets lining the walls. The reason they don't have UL certifications is because they simply would not pass UL-72 testing, and in a real fire situation they are usually going to perform poorly compared to a safe with a legitimate UL Class 350 rating.

[Blansky]

Originally Posted by Gab27

That isn't how UL fire ratings work.

The time you see with a legitimate fire safe with a UL rating refers to the time it is in the furnace while the furnace is actively on. The safe must still protect the contents not just during this active heating period, but also during the cool-down period while still inside of the furnace, which can take many hours--several days, in some cases, of withstanding high heat. If any of the internal temperature sensors rise above the internal temp threshold at any point during this process (350F, 150F, or 125F depending on the test), the safe fails. If the contents they put inside of the safe before the test are not usable after the test is completed, the safe fails. A safe with a UL Class 350 2-hour rating has a test temperature of 1850F. A safe like this can protect contents from horrific fires (note--Class 350 is structured around paper, whereas Class 125/150 is structured around electronics/media. In the case of protecting watches, cash, jewelry, bullion, or important paper documents, Class 350 is great.)

Some UL-rated fire safes are also tested with a separate impact test. This is to simulate what might happen if the safe falls through the floor of a home. This is done when the safe is at its peak temperature, where it is dropped 30 feet, returned to the furnace, and must then still complete a fire test.

Many of the safes consumers are buying are not UL-rated fire safes (or ones that went through an equivalent test). These safes may not have a rating at all (and just claim to be "fire resistant" or "fire proof"), have some rating made up by the safe company, or have some 3rd party rating that uses a testing methodology that is nowhere near as grueling as the standard set by the UL. The construction of many of these safes are often just fire board/blankets lining the walls. The reason they don't have UL certifications is because they simply would not pass UL-72 testing, and in a real fire situation they are usually going to perform poorly compared to a safe with a legitimate UL Class 350 rating.

Thanks for the information, although I suspect that people that buy safes have a false sense of security in the fact that what they buy is not rated high enough to handle some of the fires that have happened recently. The 1500 to 2000 degrees that are reached and for the length of time they have to retrieve the contents.

I wonder if the majority of homeowners actually have a top rated safe, and does the rating even guarantee the results they claim.

In Santa Rosa CA in the Tubbs fire that burned about 4-5000 houses to ash, I asked a lot of people how their safes held up, (since I had considered buying one) and found that only a couple of people had anything to salvage in them. Whether they had all bought ones with too low a rating, I don't know. But these fires had crematorium level heat, much like the one in Hawaii.

[EEpro]

Originally Posted by Blansky

I wonder if the majority of homeowners actually have a top rated safe, and does the rating even guarantee the results they claim.

Absolutely they do not.

If UL stamped, yes they do.

If you live in CA it might be better to spend money on a house sprinkler system first then a large dog.

[Gab27]

Originally Posted by Blansky

Thanks for the information, although I suspect that people that buy safes have a false sense of security in the fact that what they buy is not rated high enough to handle some of the fires that have happened recently. The 1500 to 2000 degrees that are reached and for the length of time they have to retrieve the contents.

I wonder if the majority of homeowners actually have a top rated safe, and does the rating even guarantee the results they claim.

In Santa Rosa CA in the Tubbs fire that burned about 4-5000 houses to ash, I asked a lot of people how their safes held up, (since I had considered buying one) and found that only a couple of people had anything to salvage in them. Whether they had all bought ones with too low a rating, I don't know. But these fires had crematorium level heat, much like the one in Hawaii.

Unfortunately, the false sense of security is often encouraged by safe manufacturers who are building products that they (often boldly) market as being amazing fire safes, when in fact they are miles away from this. To make things more confusing, some makers are building quality UL fire safes and inferior fire safes under different model lines, which for someone buying a safe who isn't able to dive to deep into it, can be even more confusing.

As a general rule, safes that pass the UL 72 testing tend to do really well in actual structure fires at protecting the contents that correspond to the class rating. There's no guarantees as so many factors can vary, but UL 72 is designed to try to simulate extremely bad circumstances, much like UL tool resistant ratings are designed to simulate a 'worst case scenario' (i.e., a TL-15 safe may have a 15-minute rating, but this 15 minutes corresponds to tool-on time from two extremely skilled attackers who have blueprints of the safe design and the absolute best tools to try to defeat the safe. In reality, most folks trying to get into the safe would not have this level of skill, knowledge, or that many available tools to use at once.)

Wildfires definitely would present a greater challenge as, to my understanding, the heat encountered with them can be greater than a home fire and the smoldering can go on for a much more prolonged period. That said, if someone wants to maximize the chance of protecting the contents, a UL fire rating is the best way to go, IMHO. If in a wildfire prone area, they can potentially further maximize the chance of protecting extremely important documents/belongings by putting a UL-rated fire resistant cabinet (such as some of the products made by Honeywell) inside of a UL-rated fire resistant safe.

[dddrees]

Originally Posted by Gab27

Unfortunately, the false sense of security is often encouraged by safe manufacturers who are building products that they (often boldly) market as being amazing fire safes, when in fact they are miles away from this. To make things more confusing, some makers are building quality UL fire safes and inferior fire safes under different model lines, which for someone buying a safe who isn't able to dive to deep into it, can be even more confusing.

As a general rule, safes that pass the UL 72 testing tend to do really well in actual structure fires at protecting the contents that correspond to the class rating. There's no guarantees as so many factors can vary, but UL 72 is designed to try to simulate extremely bad circumstances, much like UL tool resistant ratings are designed to simulate a 'worst case scenario' (i.e., a TL-15 safe may have a 15-minute rating, but this 15 minutes corresponds to tool-on time from two extremely skilled attackers who have blueprints of the safe design and the absolute best tools to try to defeat the safe. In reality, most folks trying to get into the safe would not have this level of skill, knowledge, or that many available tools to use at once.)

Wildfires definitely would present a greater challenge as, to my understanding, the heat encountered with them can be greater than a home fire and the smoldering can go on for a much more prolonged period. That said, if someone wants to maximize the chance of protecting the contents, a UL fire rating is the best way to go, IMHO. If in a wildfire prone area, they can potentially further maximize the chance of protecting extremely important documents/belongings by putting a UL-rated fire resistant cabinet (such as some of the products made by Honeywell) inside of a UL-rated fire resistant safe.

Yeah that is hardly the worse of it. Frankly the fact that extremely thin steel boxes which can be had for as little as a few hundred dollars actually get away with being able to have the word Safe on it is pretty bad as well. The electronic locks are so cheap if it weren't for the back up keys that some use at some point you would be locked out. I mean it wouldn't be to difficult to break into them, but still.

Frankly what it comes down to is just as bad as the manufacturers are, so is the consumer who is unwilling to invest in their security. Cheap crap sells because the majority of people are looking to do everything possible, they can to save a buck. Real safes and real fire protection cost money, although it's extremely possible to find a very good used safe for much less money.

[Gab27]

Originally Posted by dddrees

Yeah that is hardly the worse of it. Frankly the fact that extremely thin steel boxes which can be had for as little as a few hundred dollars actually get away with being able to have the word Safe on it is pretty bad as well. The electronic locks are so cheap if it weren't for the back up keys that some use at some point you would be locked out. I mean it wouldn't be to difficult to break into them, but still.

Frankly what it comes down to is just as bad as the manufacturers are, so is the consumer who is unwilling to invest in their security. Cheap crap sells because the majority of people are looking to do everything possible, they can to save a buck. Real safes and real fire protection cost money, although it's extremely possible to find a very good used safe for much less money.

This is definitely a huge part of the problem. Quite a few buyers don't really want to dive into the differences between safes, and if something looks like a safe and especially if it has good marketing, they may quickly make a decision largely based on price and much less so on construction/performance. In some cases, this can lead to someone buying a safe that is arguably not a good match relative to the contents it stores or the level of protection the buyer wants or thinks that it provides.