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Old 26 May 2023, 02:55 AM   #61
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Well, I think it's entirely fair to look at Panerai, VC and Lange, and hate on Richemont.

If nothing changed after a sale, it's probably true that, after some grumbling, many would continue as customers. But that's a very big if, IMO.

Do you not agree that VC and Lange are putting out good product?

I will leave Panerai out of the discussion. :)
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Old 26 May 2023, 05:27 AM   #62
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Do you not agree that VC and Lange are putting out good product?

I will leave Panerai out of the discussion. :)
I say yes they are!
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Old 26 May 2023, 06:10 AM   #63
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Well, I think it's entirely fair to look at Panerai, VC and Lange, and hate on Richemont.

If nothing changed after a sale, it's probably true that, after some grumbling, many would continue as customers. But that's a very big if, IMO.
I don’t see either a Lange or a VC in your footer. But having had experience with both and still having a Lange, I have to say, I have never had a better experience than in dealing with these two brands. Lange, from the people at the manufacture, to the Dresden flagship store, to our local salon, are second to none. Same with our local VC boutique that is probably the best example of what service should look like in that segment that I have ever come across.

The product is a matter of taste of course, as is everything, but you can’t argue with the quality in my experience.

So what’s the issue?

I mean what you do have an admirable collection of according to your footer is AP, a brand that, while I really love it from an irrational point of view, is known among other things for pairing often questionable quality with piss poor service at their AP houses.

So again, what am I missing?
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Old 26 May 2023, 06:20 AM   #64
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I don’t see either a Lange or a VC in your footer. But having had experience with both and still having a Lange, I have to say, I have never had a better experience than in dealing with these two brands. Lange, from the people at the manufacture, to the Dresden flagship store, to our local salon, are second to none. Same with our local VC boutique that is probably the best example of what service should look like in that segment that I have ever come across.

The product is a matter of taste of course, as is everything, but you can’t argue with the quality in my experience.

So what’s the issue?

I mean what you do have an admirable collection of according to your footer is AP, a brand that, while I really love it from an irrational point of view, is known among other things for pairing often questionable quality with piss poor service at their AP houses.

So again, what am I missing?

While I enjoy your post and agree with many aspects, although the service at Lange and VC would fall off a cliff if they had Patek like demand, I can’t help but imagine you saying this in the voice of Mr. Lebowski

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Old 26 May 2023, 06:32 AM   #65
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While I enjoy your post and agree with many aspects, although the service at Lange and VC would fall off a cliff if they had Patek like demand, I can’t help but imagine you saying this in the voice of Mr. Lebowski

Haha, liked your style already but this crowns it, nice one my friend, that thought really had me laugh
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Old 26 May 2023, 06:45 AM   #66
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While I enjoy your post and agree with many aspects, although the service at Lange and VC would fall off a cliff if they had Patek like demand, I can’t help but imagine you saying this in the voice of Mr. Lebowski


Haha!

But in response, I will say, “Maybe”. We don’t know what we don’t know - how VC (or ALS) would handle a surge in servicing. And to be fair, Patek isn’t always great with their servicing, and it certainly takes a long, long time.

What we do know is VC now offers an extended 8-year warranty (versus Patek’s laughable 2-year), and that is an impressive statement of standing behind one’s product.
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Old 26 May 2023, 06:48 AM   #67
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What we do know is VC now offers an extended 8-year warranty (versus Patek’s laughable 2-year), and that is an impressive statement of standing behind one’s product.
I'd say it's marketing and necessary for them to differentiate so to achieve penetrance. They're not doing it out of the goodness of their heart (this is Richemont that we're talking about, afterall!).
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Old 26 May 2023, 06:50 AM   #68
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If LVMH bought AP and you had an in with AP already (meaning you actually get pieces you ask for), would you REALLY give up any new offerings just because of that? REALLY? Meanwhile, if it hypothetically were to happen, Jean would be absolutely INCREDIBLE here. I got to sit down with him and hear him talk about innovations in watchmaking and some of the new pieces that have been done by LV and hearing his passion and knowledge about watchmaking (in general)... leads me to think he would be a GEM for a company like AP. Dont hate on the big guys in the lux world just because they are big...but certainly do blame them if they actually wreck a brand after time, thats beyond fair. I certainly dont think that would happen in that case.


There will be no difference in the product which will surely remain excellent.

The big difference is writing down/liquidating inventory and the effect on resale values. When the Richemont brands had to destroy a bunch of inventory and write it down a few years ago it was reported in their financials and hurt resale values, AP/Patek can do whatever they want with inventory and no one will know about it.
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Old 26 May 2023, 06:57 AM   #69
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Do you not agree that VC and Lange are putting out good product?

I will leave Panerai out of the discussion. :)
VC, IMO, has fallen far behind PP and AP, when they should be right up there given the history and resources they (should) have. Some of the product seems a bit clunky. Lange's bundling policy and treatment of long-term customers appear quite hamfisted. Richemont understood the marketing value of scarcity, but went about it in a very cynical, corporate way (c.f., 222, Odysseus)

Panerai with some of their movement offerings is just taking the piss.
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Old 26 May 2023, 07:00 AM   #70
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I'd say it's marketing and necessary for them to differentiate so to achieve penetrance. They're not doing it out of the goodness of their heart (this is Richemont that we're talking about, afterall!).
I honestly believe that you may have an erroneous sense of how Richemont works as a „system“. It is still very much driven by one person and that person, I am led to believe, has a particular soft spot for Lange in particular and VC as well. That’s also why these two brands enjoy a lot more freedom than the others within the group.
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Old 26 May 2023, 07:05 AM   #71
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I mean what you do have an admirable collection of according to your footer is AP, a brand that, while I really love it from an irrational point of view, is known among other things for pairing often questionable quality with piss poor service at their AP houses.

So again, what am I missing?
Looks like our service experiences have been quite different - maybe luck of the draw, maybe a question of personality/expectations. VC overall hasn't lived up to their potential, IMO. Maybe I would think differently about Lange if they sold me an Odysseus
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Old 26 May 2023, 07:25 AM   #72
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Looks like our service experiences have been quite different - maybe luck of the draw, maybe a question of personality/expectations. VC overall hasn't lived up to their potential, IMO. Maybe I would think differently about Lange if they sold me an Odysseus
Fair enough, though how about AP selling you a 16202? Any better luck there?

In both cases though, service is less about what watch they are willing to sell you and more about how they tell you why you're not getting it. Lange here is very open and friendly about where one may stand in the process. AP just ghosts people and treats them with obvious disdain. I know of a few in a few different locations, so I know I'm not alone with that experience.
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Old 26 May 2023, 07:53 AM   #73
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Fair enough, though how about AP selling you a 16202? Any better luck there?

In both cases though, service is less about what watch they are willing to sell you and more about how they tell you why you're not getting it. Lange here is very open and friendly about where one may stand in the process. AP just ghosts people and treats them with obvious disdain. I know of a few in a few different locations, so I know I'm not alone with that experience.
I've never asked for a steel Jumbo. I was not surprised when they couldn't/wouldn't sell me one of the two 50th 16202BAs they received last year. Again, my experience doesn't line up with yours - they have always been clear what can be done for sure, what is a stretch and what is unrealistic.
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Old 26 May 2023, 11:10 AM   #74
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I've never asked for a steel Jumbo. I was not surprised when they couldn't/wouldn't sell me one of the two 50th 16202BAs they received last year. Again, my experience doesn't line up with yours - they have always been clear what can be done for sure, what is a stretch and what is unrealistic.
Meanwhile HK House tried to pawn me off to Taiwan. I told them if you couldn’t get the heavy hitters, no way I was getting any better watches anytime soon. Lol.
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Old 26 May 2023, 09:25 PM   #75
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Haha!

But in response, I will say, “Maybe”. We don’t know what we don’t know - how VC (or ALS) would handle a surge in servicing. And to be fair, Patek isn’t always great with their servicing, and it certainly takes a long, long time.

What we do know is VC now offers an extended 8-year warranty (versus Patek’s laughable 2-year), and that is an impressive statement of standing behind one’s product.

I was referring more to the fact that you wouldn’t feel like VC and Lange salespeople were taking great care of you if they had pieces as in demand as the nautilus, aquanaut, RO etc

I think we got a taste of it already. The first second Lange boutiques had 5 minutes of fame they started demanding bundles like they were an unscrupulous Patek AD in Spain lol
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Old 26 May 2023, 10:28 PM   #76
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I was referring more to the fact that you wouldn’t feel like VC and Lange salespeople were taking great care of you if they had pieces as in demand as the nautilus, aquanaut, RO etc

I think we got a taste of it already. The first second Lange boutiques had 5 minutes of fame they started demanding bundles like they were an unscrupulous Patek AD in Spain lol
We should not forget that this was prior to the introduction of the Lange owned Salons, the demand with regard to the Odysseus has not really weakened but the communication has improved drastically. Not so at the AP house, where incidentally you can even go on a walk in basis now, as they have alienated so many people that the appointment only approach would be laughable these days.

We should also look at how the VC boutiques have handled the Overseas allocation in an extremely fair and chronological manner since the minute that became a sought after piece.
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Old 26 May 2023, 10:33 PM   #77
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We should also look at how the VC boutiques have handled the Overseas allocation in an extremely fair and chronological manner since the minute that became a sought after piece.
I will do the experiment later this summer, and inquire about a 222 and report back. That VC boutique was indeed quite friendly when Overseas could be gotten as walk-in purchases.
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Old 26 May 2023, 10:41 PM   #78
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We should not forget that this was prior to the introduction of the Lange owned Salons, the demand with regard to the Odysseus has not really weakened but the communication has improved drastically. Not so at the AP house, where incidentally you can even go on a walk in basis now, as they have alienated so many people that the appointment only approach would be laughable these days.

We should also look at how the VC boutiques have handled the Overseas allocation in an extremely fair and chronological manner since the minute that became a sought after piece.
i feel like boutiques are generally more respectful. haven't heard many bad things about AP boutiques either but then look at all the bad stuff you read about rolex ADs
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Old 27 May 2023, 02:59 AM   #79
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Well, I think it's entirely fair to look at Panerai, VC and Lange, and hate on Richemont.

If nothing changed after a sale, it's probably true that, after some grumbling, many would continue as customers. But that's a very big if, IMO.

True, though Lange and VC are rather hot and have kept a steady climb so those are pretty strong even still. Panerai...well yeah thats a flop now and def accredited to lack luster excitement and overproduction AND overpriced.
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Old 28 May 2023, 07:30 PM   #80
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We should not forget that this was prior to the introduction of the Lange owned Salons, the demand with regard to the Odysseus has not really weakened but the communication has improved drastically. Not so at the AP house, where incidentally you can even go on a walk in basis now, as they have alienated so many people that the appointment only approach would be laughable these days.

We should also look at how the VC boutiques have handled the Overseas allocation in an extremely fair and chronological manner since the minute that became a sought after piece.

I totally agree! Appointment set in certain AP boutiques where some don’t reply for confirmation. But some do. So it is a hit and miss thing.

VC is far easier to deal with especially with their Overseas model.


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Old 29 May 2023, 01:22 AM   #81
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We should not forget that this was prior to the introduction of the Lange owned Salons, the demand with regard to the Odysseus has not really weakened but the communication has improved drastically. Not so at the AP house, where incidentally you can even go on a walk in basis now, as they have alienated so many people that the appointment only approach would be laughable these days.

We should also look at how the VC boutiques have handled the Overseas allocation in an extremely fair and chronological manner since the minute that became a sought after piece.

Sure but that lasted about 12 months. You can get any overseas you want for close to msrp and tax or less now. Most are discounted. While it’s arguably better constructed than its contemporaries it doesn’t hold a candle to the genta rivals in terms of demand. Regardless for an everyday wear I’d say it’s the best of the lot.

The YG 222 is probably the only one that’s well above msrp and I predict that won’t last long. VC might be second place behind breguet in terms of brands that are, for better or worse, poorly managed from a business perspective relative to their peers.

Patek probably has 20-30 SKUs that are more in demand than the most desirable VC (222) and it’s been that way for going on 6 years.
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Old 29 May 2023, 05:59 PM   #82
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Sure but that lasted about 12 months. You can get any overseas you want for close to msrp and tax or less now. Most are discounted. While it’s arguably better constructed than its contemporaries it doesn’t hold a candle to the genta rivals in terms of demand. Regardless for an everyday wear I’d say it’s the best of the lot.

The YG 222 is probably the only one that’s well above msrp and I predict that won’t last long. VC might be second place behind breguet in terms of brands that are, for better or worse, poorly managed from a business perspective relative to their peers.

Patek probably has 20-30 SKUs that are more in demand than the most desirable VC (222) and it’s been that way for going on 6 years.
All true and consistent with my experience owning a 4500v. What's a bit saddening at Vacheron is that they remain in their niche not despite, but because they are doing watches the way they ought to. It's unfortunate the market punishes a manufacturer for doing that in this way, but so is life.
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Old 20 December 2023, 04:22 AM   #83
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New video introducing her. Very interested to see where this goes

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C1CfL...RlODBiNWFlZA==
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Old 20 December 2023, 04:33 AM   #84
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New video introducing her. Very interested to see where this goes

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C1CfL...RlODBiNWFlZA==
That was fun. I love seeing the employees hamming it up a bit.
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Old 20 December 2023, 04:35 AM   #85
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I felt the video was done very well. Ilaria Resta appears approachable and will likely be a steady hand to take the brand forward, hopefully with less emphasis on celebrities and just focus on the heritage of AP.
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Old 20 December 2023, 04:54 AM   #86
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I felt the video was done very well. Ilaria Resta appears approachable and will likely be a steady hand to take the brand forward, hopefully with less emphasis on celebrities and just focus on the heritage of AP.
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Old 20 December 2023, 11:52 AM   #87
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My hope and expectation is that she will introduce modern retakes of vintage classics. AP has a rich historical catalog to draw from and the timing is right as time to move beyond RO.
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Old 20 December 2023, 01:10 PM   #88
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My hope and expectation is that she will introduce modern retakes of vintage classics. AP has a rich historical catalog to draw from and the timing is right as time to move beyond RO.
But FHB tried that already (Remaster01) and people weren't exactly lining up to buy them - the Remaster01 are excellent value used now.
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Old 20 December 2023, 01:24 PM   #89
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I will do the experiment later this summer, and inquire about a 222 and report back. That VC boutique was indeed quite friendly when Overseas could be gotten as walk-in purchases.
They told me I had to buy a relationship piece first (after buying two Cartier Santos when I was in the store asking).
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Old 20 December 2023, 01:41 PM   #90
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hoping for a migration from 41mm back to 39mm
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