Submariner 5512 5513 with three large numbers engraved on caseback?

[GunslingerPK]

Hello,

long time lurker and first time poster, I would like to ask the fellow Rolex enthusiasts and experts for their thoughts / opinions about something that puzzles me (and even after extensive search I couldnt find the answer): I recently acquired a 1966 (assuming based on 1,409,XXX serial number) Rolex 5512 Submariner case with a 5513 caseback dated I.1965

Case seems to be the older style with PCG/Pointed Crown Guards (possibly Eagle's beak that was badly rubbed down, hard to tell), it is scratched quite a bit but not rusted (I haven't had it polished yet, since I haven't decided whether to restore the Sub myself, or sell it/pass it onto someone more experienced). However what puzzles me is that the caseback has a large three digit number deeply engraved on back of it (the side resting against wrist).

It could be something done by some local jeweller, but several things intrigue me - this engraving looks more professional than most military engravings on Milsubs, and it actually looks like a simplified version of the original COMEX engravings. Number itself is obviously not an anniversary, or date, or some personal acronym, rather it seems to mark the Submariner as being one of a batch of 800 or perhaps 999 pieces, which would imply some limited edition or special batch.

Does anyone perhaps know or can guess what this number represents?

I will try to attach the pictures down below (fullsize images are in the .zip file), and thank you very much in advance for any thoughts or ideas.

PK

[circles]

The engraving on that case doesn't look very good.

[swish77]

Looks fake. Can you post a more photos showing the reference and serial number engavings?

[circles]

Originally Posted by swish77

Looks fake. Can you post a more photos showing the reference and serial number engavings?

I noticed the engraving also, look at the "E"'s.

[schaumburgla]

Very suspicious looking markings but need clear picture showing detailed Ref & Ser. #'s.
Also as you state a 1.4 million case would not have had "eagles beak" or "pointy crown guards"
Pointy guards would be on watches from roughly 59'-63'

[Subspecies]

Wouldn't a pcg/eagle beak have a lower serial number. Agree on the engraving and those scratches look highly suspect especially the ones where the bezel would sit. How on earth would they have there without a helping hand !

[J!m]

I don't like that mid case...

No corrosion? Why the "random" scratches all over it?

Where the inner lugs meet the case- I don't like that area either.

"E"s as previously noted.

Can't see the back well enough to comment, but... zero corrosion on that too? With a large number implying it was an "issued" watch?

RUN AWAY.

[GunslingerPK]

Thank you all for your feedback so far, attaching close-ups (20x microscope magnification) of the serial and reference numbers. As far as I know case was cleaned, but not polished. If you would like any more pics / from different angle, or close ups of specific things, just let me know what to focus on.

As for the PCG/year, I assumed there is a '1' in front of the 409xxx (1,409,xxx would imply 1965/1966, and since the caseback is from 1965 I assumed it matches), but now that you mention it, it really seems the number is just 409,xxx which would imply 1959, right? And this would then also explain the PCG, or not?

If you think it's a fake, please do tell me, I still might have a chance to return it. Thanks!

PK

[1675-David]

oh dear!! looks like somebody took a file to fake case...

return it immediately! the only value in this is as scrap metal

[R!$]

Looks too clean...

[GunslingerPK]

So does everybody think that it is a fake? No chance of it being legit?

Thanks again for your thoughts and opinions (even though that's a very bad news for me),

PK

[Kingface66]

Fake. Even the crown guards look like they've been shaped into PCGs from traditional crown guards. Sorry, man!

[circles]

Originally Posted by GunslingerPK

So does everybody think that it is a fake?

Sorry, but since you asked that bluntly; the answer to your question is "yes".

[harry in montreal]

The old long E clusterF.

[linesiders]

So much wrong

[watchcrank]

One more time. There are fakes and there are terrible fakes. This is the latter.

[GunslingerPK]

Thanks again for your feedback, appreciate it, even though not happy about it (unfortunately I couldnt examine the case itself prior to purchase and the caseback seemed legit to me).

So what about the caseback - is it original / genuine? (if it is, then we still don't know what the large number might mean, right?)

For comparison attaching pictures of three casebacks I have in stock - first one (5513 I.1965 / with the engraving on back) came with the fake case, second one is I think early 70s 5512, and the third one is a fake I.1972 5513 I got from Italy.

Look forward to your thoughts and once again I appreciate all your feedback!

PK

[GunslingerPK]

Nobody? Not even a clue / hint / suggestion?

Thanks again for any thoughts,

PK

[1675-David]

a genuine caseback that someone has engrave a huge number 789 on in an approximation of the COMEX 5514 has effectively been rendered worthless

[GunslingerPK]

Thanks for your reply David, but a 789 COMEX number would represent year 1976, right? And this caseback is from 1965.

Besides, from what researched it was the ref. 5514 that featured two different case back styles with four variations of small, medium and large issue numbers, and they were all issued in mid-to-late 70s. First COMEX 5513 from early 1970s had only the ROLEX and COMEX writings, with small number underneath. And absolutely first 5513 COMEX has a case number from 1971 and was sold to COMEX in 1972.

So if someone wanted to copy/approximate COMEX markings, they wouldn't use a caseback that is older than 1971, and even if they were ignorant/dumb, they wouldn't stop with engraving just the '789' but would add ROLEX and COMEX engravings as well (easy enough to do, besides, engraving just the number without COMEX engraving kind of defeats the whole purpose of trying to imitate COMEX).

That is why I am leaning towards thinking that it has nothing to do with COMEX, but instead the number comes from some batch of Submariners that were for some reason marked like this. This number does not look like an average mom'n'pop watchshop with engraving machine did it. It's perfectly done, deep, perfectly centered, and even horizontally level with the engraving on the other side, which suggests it was probably done by Rolex itself.

By the way, what do those 5 dots on the inside mean? (sorry for my ignorance, I just haven't seen that many 5513 casebacks and this is new to me):

[Xantiagib]

i'm sure it can be laser welded to remove the fake comex number and polished up to be as normal as possible - so you'd still have a genuine case back

[05carbondrz]

I found this image in one of my Books,Interesting its the same Number.

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by 05carbondrz

I found this image in one of my Books,Interesting its the same Number.

Actually, not quite!

[Pureform]

Originally Posted by 05carbondrz

I found this image in one of my Books,Interesting its the same Number.

He posted 789, this is 768 so how's it the same number...

[05carbondrz]

Dang it,My dyslexia strikes again!

[Pureform]

Double post

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by Pureform

Double post

...

[GunslingerPK]

Thanks Pureform, that's exactly why I am thinking it has nothing to do with COMEX - if somebody trying to make a fake Rolex would forget to put on Rolex name and logo, he wouldnt fool anybody. So trying to make a fake Comex without the Comex/Rolex name and logo makes no sense either. Doubly so, since the caseback is original 1965. Ergo, the number represents some other batch of Submariners, and it seems the same Rolex engraving machine and typefont was used 6 years later for the Comex batch, adding the Comex/Rolex name and two crowns for differentiation.

But what do those 5 dots represent? Any ideas?

PK