Shaking watch adds seconds

[SpicyMikey]

Here's an observation followed by a question. I have a sky dweller with the new 9001 movement. It consistently loses about 2 seconds per day. Very reasonable. I tried laying it in different positions overnight and nothing really seems to effect that number. It's very steady and consistent.

However, I discovered that if I shake my wrist vigorously it adds seconds. After some testing I've learned that I can pretty consistently gain back those 2 seconds real quickly if I shake my wrist for about 20 seconds. I shake it in the direction of 12/6. Kind of like when you're pounding your fist on a table or hammeringa nail, which is how I made this discovery, but you don't need to pound it on anything just shake it back-and-forth in the air.

So here is the question, does anybody have any insight to what that might do long term to the movement? I mean it doesn't sound great to shake your watch vigorously like that. But of course these watches are made to take a lot. Maybe it doesn't matter. And if so it's a great way to self regulate my watch.

Thoughts? Experienced insights? Thanks in advance.

Mike

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[watchmaker]

You are interrupting the hairspring, causing it to vibrate and keep time erratically.

The hairspring is only capable of delivering precision when the spring is flat and the coils concentric.

[SpicyMikey]

Originally Posted by watchmaker

You are interrupting the hairspring, causing it to vibrate and keep time erratically.

The hairspring is only capable of delivering precision when the spring is flat and the coils concentric.

That makes perfect sense. The big question still in my mind though is: Are we putting any significant extra wear on the hairspring that will significantly shorten the interval between servicing? It's a question that may not be possible to answer. But I figured Id throw it out there and see what others thought. It sure is a fast and convenient way to regulate a watch that runs a little slow

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[Doc Savage]

Originally Posted by SpicyMikey

That makes perfect sense. The big question still in my mind though is: Are we putting any significant extra wear on the hairspring that will significantly shorten the interval between servicing? It's a question that may not be possible to answer. But I figured Id throw it out there and see what others thought. It sure is a fast and convenient way to regulate a watch that runs a little slow

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That was the first question I had, also. I don't think it would damage anything, but if you do it everyday, I really don't know if the cumulative effect on the movement could be negative.

[watchmaker]

Originally Posted by SpicyMikey

That makes perfect sense. The big question still in my mind though is: Are we putting any significant extra wear on the hairspring that will significantly shorten the interval between servicing? It's a question that may not be possible to answer. But I figured Id throw it out there and see what others thought. It sure is a fast and convenient way to regulate a watch that runs a little slow

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Technically speaking it is subjecting the watch to additional force/stress/wear. But I wouldn't say it is significant.

That being said, extra stress is extra stress. If 99.99% are fine, that would still result in failure for every 1 in 10,000 watches - not exactly a remote chance. (And there is no realistic way their failure rate is only 0.01% either, was intended as hyperbole)

I wouldn't worry about it though, just don't go strapping your watch to a paint mixer at home depot.

[SpicyMikey]

Originally Posted by watchmaker

Technically speaking it is subjecting the watch to additional force/stress/wear. But I wouldn't say it is significant.

That being said, extra stress is extra stress. If 99.99% are fine, that would still result in failure for every 1 in 10,000 watches - not exactly a remote chance. (And there is no realistic way their failure rate is only 0.01% either, was intended as hyperbole)

I wouldn't worry about it though, just don't go strapping your watch to a paint mixer at home depot.

LOL I'll avoid that, as well as wearing it when I use a jackhammer to bust up my concrete patio this summer

I like to keep my watches within a minute of accurate. Call me weird but I've always been that way. I reset my Grandfathers clock every Sunday when I wind it. But that's worse, when it is not accurate it is reminding you every hour of that fact.

The way I figure it this is not a puppy. So if shaking it won't kill it then I might just do that to keep it close to accurate even if it means sending it in for service in 5 years instead of 7.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[77T]

Any item made of materials meant to oscillate has some version of a MTBF. What you’re doing will not put your hairspring on the Eastside of that timeline.




Ultimately it’s your watch - maybe try to work on that OCD you have

I am just ribbing you, of course.

I, too, have a weight-driven grandfather clock that I crank every week along with 4 other spring-driven pendulum clocks. Each varies a bit but I stopped using my Rolex to adjust them weekly. That’s because they are keeping better time than the DJ. I can regulate the pendulums very well, and they don’t have me shaking them.




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[Tools]

Space Mountain and the Matterhorn will also add seconds, and it's a whole lot more fun.

[SpicyMikey]

Originally Posted by 77T

Any item made of materials meant to oscillate has some version of a MTBF. What you’re doing will not put your hairspring on the Eastside of that timeline.




Ultimately it’s your watch - maybe try to work on that OCD you have

I am just ribbing you, of course.

I, too, have a weight-driven grandfather clock that I crank every week along with 4 other spring-driven pendulum clocks. Each varies a bit but I stopped using my Rolex to adjust them weekly. That’s because they are keeping better time than the DJ. I can regulate the pendulums very well, and they don’t have me shaking them.

Haha, yea I'm actually not that bad. Normally I'm not compelled to pop the crown and adjust the time until it's a couple minutes off. But an easy shake every morning might be hard to resist my mild OCD.




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[Bigblu10]

Store the watch dial up position when not worn. This may cause a very slow gain in time over days or weeks. There is the least amount of friction on the pivots with dial up.

[SpicyMikey]

Originally Posted by Bigblu10

Store the watch dial up position when not worn. This may cause a very slow gain in time over days or weeks. There is the least amount of friction on the pivots with dial up.

Thanks. I actually tried that already. But it wont help. I wear this watch 24/7 so it would only be at rest overnight. Wasnt enough time to make a difference. Loses 2 seconds during the day and gains back half a second at night. The math doesn't work but Thanks for the suggestion

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[Ashton_Horologist]

You are interrupting the balance spring, but that isn’t the reason that the watch gains time. The reason the watch gains time is that you are causing it to over bank. Basically, the roller jewel is being moved past it’s safe point and is hitting the back of the pallet horns. In effect, you are raising the amplitude of the balance to over 360 degrees. It’s the same as putting a mainspring in that is too strong, it will cause the watch to gain time very quickly. It’s possible, if you spin it enough, that the balance spring could get caught up on itself. I have seen that happen.

[Ashton_Horologist]

Also, I don’t know where this myth that a watch will gain time if stored dial up comes form, but it’s utter rubbish. If a watch is set to gain time in that position, then yes it will. If it’s not, then it won’t. This is not a rule.

[SpicyMikey]

Originally Posted by Ashton_Horologist

You are interrupting the balance spring, but that isn’t the reason that the watch gains time. The reason the watch gains time is that you are causing it to over bank. Basically, the roller jewel is being moved past it’s safe point and is hitting the back of the pallet horns. In effect, you are raising the amplitude of the balance to over 360 degrees. It’s the same as putting a mainspring in that is too strong, it will cause the watch to gain time very quickly. It’s possible, if you spin it enough, that the balance spring could get caught up on itself. I have seen that happen.

That doesn't sound good. Thanks for that explanation.

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[watchmaker]

Originally Posted by Ashton_Horologist

You are interrupting the balance spring, but that isn’t the reason that the watch gains time. The reason the watch gains time is that you are causing it to over bank....

I agree over-banking is part of the equation but I disagree that interrupting the balance spring will not influence the timekeeping for the duration of the interruption.

If a sufficient external force acts on the balance spring it will vibrate outside of it’s predetermined frequency. If the movement is geared for a 4hz balance and the balance temporarily vibrates at higher frequency, the watch will gain.

Originally Posted by Ashton_Horologist

Also, I don’t know where this myth that a watch will gain time if stored dial up comes form, but it’s utter rubbish. If a watch is set to gain time in that position, then yes it will. If it’s not, then it won’t. This is not a rule.

Completely agree here

[SpicyMikey]

Originally Posted by watchmaker

I agree over-banking is part of the equation but I disagree that interrupting the balance spring will not influence the timekeeping for the duration of the interruption.



If a sufficient external force acts on the balance spring it will vibrate outside of it’s predetermined frequency. If the movement is geared for a 4hz balance and the balance temporarily vibrates at higher frequency, the watch will gain.







Completely agree here

Guys, regarding different positions at rest: I have to tell you it does seem to affect MY watch. During normal wearing my watch loses about 2 seconds during the day. It also loses more time if I wear it to bed. But if I lay it flat on the nightstand it seems to hold steady overnight. Position, or maybe also the motion, certainly effects it.

Regardless, thanks again for the education

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[watchmaker]

Originally Posted by SpicyMikey

Guys, regarding different positions at rest: I have to tell you it does seem to affect MY watch. During normal wearing my watch loses about 2 seconds during the day. It also loses more time if I wear it to bed. But if I lay it flat on the nightstand it seems to hold steady overnight. Position, or maybe also the motion, certainly effects it.

Regardless, thanks again for the education

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There is absolutely no disputing that positional error is a thing.

What we were referring to and disputing is the oft touted nugget of wisdom that “leaving a watch dial up will make it gain”. It depends entirely on how the watch has been regulated, so it not a one size fits all solution.

However, changing watch resting positions absolutely does produce different timekeeping results.

[SpicyMikey]

Gotcha. Based on simple observation that jives with what I see

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[nda]

Rolex used to send this out with every watch - it certainly works with my Sky Dweller.

[padi56]

Why some worry and fret over one or two seconds out of 86400 in a day defeats me.

[SpicyMikey]

Originally Posted by nda

Rolex used to send this out with every watch - it certainly works with my Sky Dweller.

Thanks NDA. Unfortunately it doesn't work with with MY SkyD. Laying flat at night MAYBE makes my watch lose a tad less at night than if I just wore it to bed, but that's it. Every watch is different I guess but I agree it's something to try. Thanks for sharing

Mike

[SpicyMikey]

Originally Posted by padi56

Why some worry and fret over one or two seconds out of 86400 in a day defeats me.

I don't know if I can explain it padi. It's not just because this is a new watch. I keep all my watches relatively accurate within 10 to 15 seconds of true time. I adjust my grandfather clock in our house every Sunday to keep it accurate too. There are things people do in life that I also wonder why. My wife takes a shower every morning and every night. Why? Doesnt matter. She feels better doing it

Mike

[EEpro]

Originally Posted by SpicyMikey

Thanks NDA. Unfortunately it doesn't work with with MY SkyD. Laying flat at night MAYBE makes my watch lose a tad less at night than if I just wore it to bed, but that's it. Every watch is different I guess but I agree it's something to try. Thanks for sharing

Mike

I hear that. My Daytona is +2.5 to +3 no matter the angle. I can't get it to lose any time so there is no hope of regulating over long periods like I did with GMT, sub, SD43, DJ41 etc which all gained dial up and lost crown up.

[SpicyMikey]

Originally Posted by EEpro

I hear that. My Daytona is +2.5 to +3 no matter the angle. I can't get it to lose any time so there is no hope of regulating over long periods like I did with GMT, sub, SD43, DJ41 etc which all gained dial up and lost crown up.

Personally I find this very comforting. The fact that this new 9001 movement is not very sensitive to gravitational angled forces is very impressive. It's an impressive piece of machinery. The only thing I have been able to do to influence the beat is to shake it vigorously and quickly from 3 to 6 while on my wrist . The pace needs to be fast enough, several shakes per second , and the force strong enough, otherwise it doesn't work. Others on here with working knowledge of watchmaking said its influencing the resonance of the balance wheel. I can add a couple seconds quickly if I shake it for about 15/20 seconds. That works because my watch runs about 2 to 3 seconds slow per day. For someone whose watch runs fast like yours, I have no suggestions other than to pop the crown and reset the time once a week. Enjoy your skyD!

Mike

[nda]

Originally Posted by SpicyMikey

I don't know if I can explain it padi. It's not just because this is a new watch. I keep all my watches relatively accurate within 10 to 15 seconds of true time. I adjust my grandfather clock in our house every Sunday to keep it accurate too. There are things people do in life that I also wonder why. My wife takes a shower every morning and every night. Why? Doesnt matter. She feels better doing it

Mike

If a watch has a hacking function, it tempts many (me included) to observe it's accuracy.

It's interesting that your Sky Dweller doesn't respond to self regulating as mine so clearly does. You'd think they'd be the same.

[SpicyMikey]

Originally Posted by nda

If a watch has a hacking function, it tempts many (me included) to observe it's accuracy.



It's interesting that your Sky Dweller doesn't respond to self regulating as mine so clearly does. You'd think they'd be the same.

Well it seems to make a very subtle difference but nothing significant. I agree I don't know why you're watch responds and mine doesn't. Do you have a first generation, or one from after the 2017 refresh? Maybe there were some minor changes to the movement also? I tend to doubt it but that's all I got

Mike

[padi56]

Originally Posted by SpicyMikey

Personally I find this very comforting. The fact that this new 9001 movement is not very sensitive to gravitational angled forces is very impressive. It's an impressive piece of machinery. The only thing I have been able to do to influence the beat is to shake it vigorously and quickly from 3 to 6 while on my wrist . The pace needs to be fast enough, several shakes per second , and the force strong enough, otherwise it doesn't work. Others on here with working knowledge of watchmaking said its influencing the resonance of the balance wheel. I can add a couple seconds quickly if I shake it for about 15/20 seconds. That works because my watch runs about 2 to 3 seconds slow per day. For someone whose watch runs fast like yours, I have no suggestions other than to pop the crown and reset the time once a week. Enjoy your skyD!

Mike

And by doing what you are doing repeating almost daily could damage balance spring and what for a second or so out of 86400 in a day not worth the bother.

[SpicyMikey]

Originally Posted by padi56

And by doing what you are doing repeating almost daily could damage balance spring and what for a second or so out of 86400 in a day not worth the bother.

Put it to rest dude. Live your life the way you do and I'll live mine. How does that sound? I'm not sure what's weirder, me (and many others) caring about keeping their timepieces accurate, or you trying to keep shaming me because I do.

Mike

[77T]

Originally Posted by padi56

And by doing what you are doing repeating almost daily could damage balance spring and what for a second or so out of 86400 in a day not worth the bother.

Hey Peter...you’re cutting into watchmaker revenue stream...the more they shake & break, they more repair work for watchmakers!


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[watchmaker]

Originally Posted by 77T

Hey Peter...you’re cutting into watchmaker revenue stream...the more they shake & break, they more repair work for watchmakers!


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Oh, don’t worry about that! People will continue to find interesting ways to break their watches. Always have, always will

And then there’s the “I didn’t break it! It was working when I took it off when I went to bed, and when I woke up it was like this....” people. Lots of them keep us busy.