new Ebay rules to protect buyer and seller

[jeff hess]

I am really on the fence about this. Worried actually.

New rules for things over 2 grand with eBay are scarry.

I understand what they are trying to accomplish. They want to stop bogus sellers from selling crap and stop criminal buyers (or newbies being coerced from unknowledgeable friends )from claiming some minor thing makes it"not genuine" or "period correct" and demanding a partial refund.

But a couple of things stand out one part of the new rules says "If the item’s authenticity cannot be verified , the item is returned to the seller and a refund is issued." Ok so if the "thrid party authenticator" does not know that Rolec made bracelets in ARgentina and Mexico or that Rolex of Canada made cheap gold filled watches and watches with rhinestones in them your time and your buyers time are waisted"

And the part where it says "the watch may be given an ultrasonic bath" by the third party authenticator". Wait. What? Please tell me that the third party authenticator knows that water and watches don't mix...right? and that a snap=back vintage will NOT do well in an ultrasonic.

And "if the third party authenticator" deems your watch counterfeit you agree it will be destroyed. What??? We have sold over 100 million dollars on ebay and this is not an everyday occurrence but we have had ebay shut down an dauciton because they were informed that a watch was fake (usually Argentina made genuine bracelets) only to prove to them that it was genuine. So if some third party dude annoints your obscure vintage watch with genuine Mexican or argentinian braclet or (as happen to us once) a Tru-beat (buyer took to authozied Rolex dealer who said "Rolexs do not "tick" like that... fake). then the third party authenticator simply destroys it?

Don't get me wrong, I understand what eBay is trying to accomplish here.. But is seems like there may be hurdles.. Thoughts?https://pages.ebay.com/authenticity-...T5KD0qtpof0dbA

[tony5haw2013]

The good part is this will stop buyers buying a watch and asking to return only to send a fake or cheapo in its place as it has to get through the authenticator upon return.

Surely you will have some.say who the authentication is done by though? If not I wouldn't go near it.

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[jeff hess]

Originally Posted by tony5haw2013

The good part is this will stop buyers buying a watch and asking to return only to send a fake or cheapo in its place as it has to get through the authenticator upon return.

Surely you will have some.say who the authentication is done by though? If not I wouldn't go near it.

Sent from my SM-N976B using Tapatalk

that is another problem. eBay picked their "authentication partner". Will they destroy your watch on a whim? will the bathe in an ultrasonic your dress snap=back vintage Rolex?

Who are they? And this is not optional. If you sell or buy a watch over 2k your shipping will be slowed as it goes to this "third party" person.

[herts9]

don't buy high-end watches on ebay

[Watchflair]

I will absolutely never sell a watch on eBay ever again - did so for years and had an incredibly terrible experience that required me to hold them to their terms of use and take them to arbitration. Needless to say they clearly didn't know what they were talking about in terms of their own user agreement and the law.

Add the above to the mix and it is a recipe for disaster.

TRF's classified section just went up in value in my opinion.

[101031-28]

Yikes! I have been on ebay since 1999. Sad to see how it went from a safe platform for buying/selling to one with high risk for scams. As a result, I choose not to sell anything of value on it anymore. Too many dishonest buyers trying to use their system to scam honest sellers. Thank you for the info, Jeff. I see what they are trying to accomplish but as a seller that would be just too much headache for me to go through.

[HERITAGE82]

This is a massive headache for sellers and buyers. Glad you brought this to my attention!

[330ci]

what's absolutely hilarious is I was paid $110 to consult on this system from a third party company. They made it sound like it would be an additional protection you could use, not something you had to use.


I sold a watch on there for $2k on the 13th of last month and they held the funds for 21 days, I assume it's due to this new system coming into place.

[Burlington]

So does the watch go from seller to authentication then onwards to buyer ?

[jeff hess]

Originally Posted by Burlington

So does the watch go from seller to authentication then onwards to buyer ?

yes! Which is a GREAT idea! This whole idea is GREAT! The two sticking points are the "give your watch a bath in an ultrasonic" (just dumb) and the authenticator can confiscate your watch.

The idea is a great one! But those two items are non-starters.


Jeff, glad ebay is pro-active... but needs tweaking.

[MoosicPa]

Originally Posted by herts9

don't buy high-end watches on ebay

[330ci]

Originally Posted by CraKaLaCKiN

I don't know that legally another person can confiscate someone else's property. Fake or not.

i'm guessing there's somewhere in the user agreement that says you allow them to destroy your watch if they deem it fake


on the other hand, what happens when they verify a watch and you send it in to get it serviced and parts turn out to be fake, who bears the responsibility to the customer?

[morglaw]

Originally Posted by 101031-28

Yikes! I have been on ebay since 1999. Sad to see how it went from a safe platform for buying/selling to one with high risk for scams. As a result, I choose not to sell anything of value on it anymore. Too many dishonest buyers trying to use their system to scam honest sellers. Thank you for the info, Jeff. I see what they are trying to accomplish but as a seller that would be just too much headache for me to go through.

True, that's a shame. But sadly a lot of sites are struggling in this period, a lot are dying or having crisis.

[Polarexplorerii]

Originally Posted by herts9

don't buy high-end watches on ebay

I agree 100%

[330ci]

Originally Posted by Polarexplorerii

I agree 100%

The OP is probably one of the highest volume vintage dealers on EBay, doesn’t really make sense for him to go elsewhere id imagine when he has a huge following there already

[jeff hess]

Originally Posted by 330ci

The OP is probably one of the highest volume vintage dealers on EBay, doesn’t really make sense for him to go elsewhere id imagine when he has a huge following there already

This is true. We consolidated our early old 1990's mailing list and our old model of doing 15 watch shows per year into on-line with ebay in about 1997. It worked well and worked REAL WELL when we became Sothebys'com associates and then when Sothebys.com partnered with eBay we REALLY rocked.

The Sotheby's left eBay and we continued. Our long time Italian and Asian customers from the late 80's to early 90's continue to buy from us to this day, but instead of at shows ...on eBay.

eBay is a powerful platform. But again, those two "Sticking points" need addressed IMHO. No well-thought out.

I admire and give kudos to eBay for making an attempt to circumvent bad buyers and bad sellers with this program though.

[Case61]

Originally Posted by jeff hess

This is true. We consolidated our early old 1990's mailing list and our old model of doing 15 watch shows per year into on-line with ebay in about 1997. It worked well and worked REAL WELL when we became Sothebys'com associates and then when Sothebys.com partnered with eBay we REALLY rocked.

The Sotheby's left eBay and we continued. Our long time Italian and Asian customers from the late 80's to early 90's continue to buy from us to this day, but instead of at shows ...on eBay.

eBay is a powerful platform. But again, those two "Sticking points" need addressed IMHO. No well-thought out.

I admire and give kudos to eBay for making an attempt to circumvent bad buyers and bad sellers with this program though.

I hope this "duh" question is okay. Is your outfit Hess Fine Auctions? I've bought several items on EBay from there, mostly pocket watches on the lower end of the scale. I've always been impressed with the quality of the items sold, accuracy of description, and service. (An unsolicited endorsement, and I have no connection other than as a buyer).

[MILGAUSS88]

Seems like a good ideal that will be impossible to implement.
They must think The Real Real is there competition in this field. I think most of it has gone to Chrono24 or private websites.

So, are the autheniticators going to open the watch and inspect the movement? It's not much of an authentication if they don't. In that case the are going to have to be a watchmaker as well as an expert on watches. Those two things are not always mutual.

Are they going to open a new watch sealed in its original box?
Are they going to open up brand new watches?

If ebay is opening up watches and they scratch them are they going to take responsibility for it? The new buyers are pretty anal. You see photos of nicks under microscopes on this site.
You hear enough complaints about how watches were returned from RSC or Patek, what watch experts is ebay going to hire that are better than can be found by Rolex or Patek?


On vintage watches the gaskets disintegrate when open you open up the back. Are they going to replace them? If particles fall into the movement are they going to remove them?

Ebay sells 200 wristwatches over $2,000 every day. And that is without the Christmas rush. If you look at one every half hour, it would take 13 watchmakers.

It is not going to be easy to find that many highly skilled watchmakers. Are they just going to hire people off the street like The Real Real and train them?
How are they going to handle a holiday rush? Add 65 watchmakers? Have a back up of 2 weeks?

I think this whole plan will fall under its own weight.

[330ci]

Originally Posted by MILGAUSS88

Seems like a good ideal that will be impossible to implement.
They must think The Real Real is there competition in this field. I think most of it has gone to Chrono24 or private websites.

So, are the autheniticators going to open the watch and inspect the movement? It's not much of an authentication if they don't. In that case the are going to have to be a watchmaker as well as an expert on watches. Those two things are not always mutual.

Are they going to open a new watch sealed in its original box?
Are they going to open up brand new watches?

If ebay is opening up watches and they scratch them are they going to take responsibility for it? The new buyers are pretty anal. You see photos of nicks under microscopes on this site.
You hear enough complaints about how watches were returned from RSC or Patek, what watch experts is ebay going to hire that are better than can be found by Rolex or Patek?


On vintage watches the gaskets disintegrate when open you open up the back. Are they going to replace them? If particles fall into the movement are they going to remove them?

Ebay sells 200 wristwatches over $2,000 every day. And that is without the Christmas rush. If you look at one every half hour, it would take 13 watchmakers.

It is not going to be easy to find that many highly skilled watchmakers. Are they just going to hire people off the street like The Real Real and train them?
How are they going to handle a holiday rush? Add 65 watchmakers? Have a back up of 2 weeks?

I think this whole plan will fall under its own weight.

it's likely that they will have an office where the watches get shipped, and then they're verified by a 3rd party company. There were companies when I was in the pawn business who you would send pictures too and they would verify authenticity based off of those photos. (this was done within minutes, as customers don't like to wait) So I assume it will be a bunch of idiots taking pictures of watches, sending those in for 3rd party verification and it will be done fairly quickly. With what sense of accuracy, that's a different question.

[jeff hess]

Originally Posted by MILGAUSS88

Seems like a good ideal that will be impossible to implement.
They must think The Real Real is there competition in this field. I think most of it has gone to Chrono24 or private websites.

So, are the autheniticators going to open the watch and inspect the movement? It's not much of an authentication if they don't. In that case the are going to have to be a watchmaker as well as an expert on watches. Those two things are not always mutual.

Are they going to open a new watch sealed in its original box?
Are they going to open up brand new watches?

If ebay is opening up watches and they scratch them are they going to take responsibility for it? The new buyers are pretty anal. You see photos of nicks under microscopes on this site.
You hear enough complaints about how watches were returned from RSC or Patek, what watch experts is ebay going to hire that are better than can be found by Rolex or Patek?


On vintage watches the gaskets disintegrate when open you open up the back. Are they going to replace them? If particles fall into the movement are they going to remove them?

Ebay sells 200 wristwatches over $2,000 every day. And that is without the Christmas rush. If you look at one every half hour, it would take 13 watchmakers.

It is not going to be easy to find that many highly skilled watchmakers. Are they just going to hire people off the street like The Real Real and train them?
How are they going to handle a holiday rush? Add 65 watchmakers? Have a back up of 2 weeks?

I think this whole plan will fall under its own weight.

-------------------------------------------


Turns out that the authenticator they picked is beyond reproach. After we found out who they piced we were very very relieved. the best of the best! suriesed they were able to snag this company. But your points are VERY well taken. I totally TRUST this companies' ability to open my watches. And to not scratch a watch. And to replace gaskets. but your "logjam" worries are eye opening. The Christmast rush? when sellers are overnighting expensive watches 3 to 5 days before Christmas? This would tax even the best. But my faith in this company (the authenticator) is solid. We shall see.

[Xenon]

I used to buy Rolex on ebay in the 2000's from DavidSW

[RobertoCleveland]

I recently purchased an 1803 DD which went through eBay’s “verification” process:

1) The authenticator listed 18038 as the model on the certificate, when the case clearly had 1803 stamped on it and the item was listed as an 1803.
2) The authenticator obviously did not verify the seller’s claim of “time tested”, as my timegrapher showed a very non-COSC range of -12 to -21s/d.
3) The authenticator must not have opened the case to verify the claim of original movement, as the bridge was obviously a replacement from a 1570/1575 caliber (stamped with “1570”). This model DD would have a 1556 or 1555 stamp. Apparently the bridges are
interchangeable, but another huge miss.

It was as if the eBay “authenticator” did nothing more than look at the serial number, take a photo, and rubber stamp it.

[330ci]

Originally Posted by RobertoCleveland

I recently purchased an 1803 DD which went through eBay’s “verification” process:

1) The authenticator listed 18038 as the model on the certificate, when the case clearly had 1803 stamped on it and the item was listed as an 1803.
2) The authenticator obviously did not verify the seller’s claim of “time tested”, as my timegrapher showed a very non-COSC range of -12 to -21s/d.
3) The authenticator must not have opened the case to verify the claim of original movement, as the bridge was obviously a replacement from a 1570/1575 caliber (stamped with “1570”). This model DD would have a 1556 or 1555 stamp. Apparently the bridges are
interchangeable, but another huge miss.

It was as if the eBay “authenticator” did nothing more than look at the serial number, take a photo, and rubber stamp it.

I guess in their eyes, it’s all authentic, just not original.

[ReturningSon]

Honestly, to trust ANY timepiece over a certain value to a "third party" vendor even related to eBay seems like a crazy idea to me. eBay is a fine platform to sell and purchase lower priced items but for sellers, as price goes up the risk sure does too and do not expect a single individual from eBay or PayPal to have your back. It almost seems as if eBay does want to make it so troublesome for individuals to sell high value items that way the site can focus on lower priced, mass-market goods very much the same way Amazon does. Conspiratorial I know but I would doubt that I am alone in thinking this.

I was a power seller on eBay specializing in high value transactions (avg $4-7K plus and all things in between, from bespoke suits to handmade musical instruments) for over 10 years. The platform literally steals money from sellers in certain cases. Like C24 and every other online platform, it markets itself as the safest place to conduct business and it somewhat is as long as both parties are honest. If one is not, the other is almost certainly out of their funds due to the policies implemented. eBay has had several CEOs and top level managers get fired/sued over this mismanagement and horrible policymaking. (All sorts of other shaninigans --executives legit threatening sellers, individuals critical of the site)

Private seller volume on the site has drastically decreased. OG sellers who built the site to what it is have long since fled. It has gotten so bad that now eBay is forced to use their own discretionary funds account to repay defrauded buyers/sellers while allowing the other (criminal) party to keep their money due to their own policies
.
I mean, class action lawsuits, a Wikipedia entry entitled "Criticism of eBay", and the dozens of articles highlighting the unfairness of the platform really go to highlight whats going on. I tell everyone; eBay is a fun place to play around on a smaller priced scale and its marginally safer as a buyer than as a seller but only marginally.

eBay should stop trying to emulate Amazon, institute a fair feedback system (gasp), let sellers place higher restrictive controls on who is allowed to bid on their product and instead of trying to craft some pseudo-authentication system, try to focus on enforcement of existing policies and refine punitive action for those who scam.

Sorry, didnt mean to go on eBay rant.

[RobertoCleveland]

Originally Posted by 330ci

I guess in their eyes, it’s all authentic, just not original.

Agreed, but one of the stated purposes of the authentication process is to verify the condition claims made by the seller, and the authenticator did not even perform the simplest steps to verify those claims (i.e. look at the model number stamp, measure on a timegrapher, etc.)

[77T]

The limited time allotted should have been able to catch the model number anomaly. They don’t do a timegrapher as there is no guarantee of performance.

“After an eBay authentication partner receives the watch and any collateral materials, including but not limited to box and papers, the partner will confirm the item is consistent with the listing title, description, and images. After, the partner will perform a multi-point physical authentication inspection. Finally, a security tag will be attached to the watch.”

And as for vintage watches, replacement parts are allowed.

Per the FAQ:
Are vintage watches eligible for the program?

A vintage watch is eligible for the Authenticity Guarantee program, if all eligibility criteria are met. Vintage watches which are verified as authentic by the third-party authentication partner may contain replacement parts that are not from the original manufacturer if the original manufacturer no longer makes that part. In addition, vintage watches with commonly replaced aftermarket parts, such as a strap, bracelet, crystal, spring bars, or gaskets will be eligible for the program.

And Custom Watches?

Customized watches are not eligible for the Authenticity Guarantee Program at this time. A watch will be defined as customized when original brand parts have been replaced with non-brand parts (with the exception of straps, bracelets, spring bars, and gaskets) or parts not original to the model, or components that are modified from the original design. An example of a customized watch may be a watch with a painted dial, aftermarket bezel or crystal, or engraving on the case.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by herts9

don't buy high-end watches on ebay

I have to agree. If you choose not to purchase (or can’t because the fricken thing isn’t available!) from an AD, there are several reliable, fair and trustworthy dealers just on TRF alone. I am sure you could come to a reasonable agreement and buy with confidence.

I personally know and have done business with several of them and would be glad to give references if anyone wants.

[Burlington]

It’s a great idea in theory,

But in reality to check and confirm each element of a listing vs. the watch would take a long time.

They need some kind of tick box specification system to note things like:

- all original parts
- some non original but OEM parts
- replacement non OEM parts
- Etc.

Otherwise the wording of an advert can be too vague or misleading to be relied upon.

[jeff hess]

Ebay is simply checking does it match the listing and that it is not counterfeit.

[Old Expat Beast]

So is this only for USA deals? What happens if I'm in Hong Kong and buy a watch from Japan? Also, they must have dozens of these counterfeit checkers to keep things moving along, no?