1680 Submariner - trying to find where the dial came from

[David Strong]

Originally Posted by JustinK

A red service luminova dial would be a proper option and much cheaper than a period red dial. They come up from time to time in the vintage market.

Hi alwayshere and Kingface66,
Thanks. As you say, it’s not a 16800 face as it would be 1000ft.
I’ve also searched online and found 5513 submariner “transitional watch” faces. They have the same design face as my watch, particularly with the raised white gold edging on the hour marks. But again, they have 1000ft. Some of the 5513s even have “Swiss Made” at the bottom (but not “T Swiss Made T”).

It seems from some replies that the dial I have is fake, while other people say it could be a real service replacement, as Rolex came up with many different service replacements.

In the end, I think I will search and buy a real 1971 Red Submariner Mark IV dial, which appears to be the type that this watch would have had.

Many thanks for your advice!

[Filipão]

OP, can't you dig up some pictures from the seventies?

You might be able to find out what the watch really looked like!

Good luck David!

[Dan S]

Sounds like it was just serviced by an AD's in-house watchmaker, not actually RSC. Many of them don't know much about vintage, and there seems to be no question that the dial is after-market. I'd suggest that you simply listen to what the experts are telling you; they have looked at thousands of dials and they know the features of all legit dials, original or service. Based on your comments about Submariner dials, it's clear you are fairly new to it.

Installing an original red 1680 dial sounds like a great idea hypothetically, but I don't think that they are easily found, and the price might be a bit shocking. Keep us updated.

[MrChamfers]

I would love to have a red submariner case in search of a dial, but I really wouldn't want to pony up the 15k for that dial.

[David Strong]

Originally Posted by antrolexsub

Both the dial and the hands are fake.

Thanks!

[David Strong]

Originally Posted by Filipão

OP, can't you dig up some pictures from the seventies?

You might be able to find out what the watch really looked like!

Good luck David!

Hi Filipao,
Good idea, I’ll dig through his photos and see what comes up.
Thanks!

[David Strong]

Originally Posted by saltpeter

I would love to have a red submariner case in search of a dial, but I really wouldn't want to pony up the 15k for that dial.

Hi Saltpeter,
Thanks, cost is an issue. Given all the great advice here around it being a fake dial and hands, I’ll keep my eye out and be hopeful... (maybe naive)
Cheers,
David

[David Strong]

Originally Posted by Dan S

Sounds like it was just serviced by an AD's in-house watchmaker, not actually RSC. Many of them don't know much about vintage, and there seems to be no question that the dial is after-market. I'd suggest that you simply listen to what the experts are telling you; they have looked at thousands of dials and they know the features of all legit dials, original or service. Based on your comments about Submariner dials, it's clear you are fairly new to it.

Installing an original red 1680 dial sounds like a great idea hypothetically, but I don't think that they are easily found, and the price might be a bit shocking. Keep us updated.

Hi Dan,

Thanks and yes, I’m very new to this. I’ve had the watch for over ten years, literally in its box in my wardrobe. I’ve done nothing with it until Nov last year when I was talking to a friend who collects watches and he suggested I look into it, so here I am.

It was my Dad’s second Rolex, the first wore out as it was a working diving watch. He gave it to my sister and the cost to repair was prohibitive. She sold it to a collector, years ago. If only I’d known about the aftermarket then...

Anyways, I’ll keep my eye out for a real Red 1680 Mark IV dial and hands, and one day aim to repair it back to its former glory. It would be a lovely heirloom to my kids.

Many thanks!

[David Strong]

Originally Posted by antrolexsub

Both the dial and the hands are fake.

Thanks!

[David Strong]

Originally Posted by Paulie 50

I read this piece this morning and just laughed at how anyone could be naive enough to post a photo of this watch on a forum with so many knowledgeable eyes looking at every nuance and idiosyncracy of both the description and the actual watch; maybe I'm just becoming more intolerable as I am getting old; If that actually is the reason, I apologise in advance to the OP. My final bit of advice is read, read more... and listen. Good luck and all stay safe.

Thanks Paulie, I’m hoping to draw from the world’s expertise, there’s a lot of it!

[David Strong]

Originally Posted by antrolexsub

You’ve had solid insights throughout the thread yet refuse to acknowledge them.

Hi Antrolexsub,
I’m acknowledging your sound advice that the dial and hands are fake.
Many thanks,
David

[David Strong]

Originally Posted by Tomas Eriksson

I have seen stranger things coming from Rolex... A 1680 service dial yes. I’m not sure of course but I don’t see it as outrageous if it is genuine.

Thanks Thomas.

[MrChamfers]

Originally Posted by David Strong

Thanks Thomas.

It is complicated with so many options for you, but on the plus side no matter what you decide, you have a great keep sake.
It's a cool watch with great value as well.

[Styles Bitchley]

Originally Posted by David Strong

Hi Dan,

Thanks and yes, I’m very new to this. I’ve had the watch for over ten years, literally in its box in my wardrobe. I’ve done nothing with it until Nov last year when I was talking to a friend who collects watches and he suggested I look into it, so here I am.

It was my Dad’s second Rolex, the first wore out as it was a working diving watch. He gave it to my sister and the cost to repair was prohibitive. She sold it to a collector, years ago. If only I’d known about the aftermarket then...

Anyways, I’ll keep my eye out for a real Red 1680 Mark IV dial and hands, and one day aim to repair it back to its former glory. It would be a lovely heirloom to my kids.

Many thanks!

Don’t discount the option of a genuine service dial. There’s no shame in that. Unless you’re a collector, I’m not sure why you’d want to put a USD12-15k dial in that’s not original to the watch (other that it looking awesome). It’s still your dad’s watch. I’d also suggest doing a bit of research on vintage Rolex specialists nearby. I don’t fest a good feeling from your current RSC experience. Did they give you the old date wheel back?

[swaini3]

Originally Posted by David Strong

Hi Swaini3,
Thanks. Yes it was serviced and I talked with the person at the time. We discussed the watch and he gave me options around the dial and other parts. He said the dial was a service replacement (probably from the 80’s but he couldn’t place it either). He didn’t talk about whether it was a real Rolex replacement or a fake replacement. I said to leave it on until I learned more about it. I was very clear to him that I did not want them to replace existing parts with new Rolex parts, as it would devalue the watch.

He replaced the date wheel for me, as it was broken. This was the only part he replaced, as he said he had an authentic 1970s date wheel in stock, which is why it’s faded.

But, based on your advice and other’s advice, I will go back and ask him again more about it, the dial and the bezel.

Like you, I’m confused about the purple pip, (which is red, but may look purple in the photo). I wish I could ask Dad, as I suspect he probably got someone to do it!!!!

I’ve checked other photos of the engraving and it is “STEEL”, rather than “STELL”.

Many thanks for your advice!!!!

All the best sir. Just watch out for fake or redone dials being sold as genuine. There are many threads here discussing different dials, so you know what to look for.

[1675-David]

Originally Posted by David Strong

I have the box and original documents.

The box and papers and any other paraphernalia associated with the watch will increase it's value, as I said befor the case looks very nice although the bezel is badly worn and needs replaced. In my opinion sourcing the correct dial and a fresh bezel is makes economic sense even if a good condition mk4 dial is not cheap. Full set 1680's in the condition your watch would be after a new dial and bezel are installed are highly sought after.

[Styles Bitchley]

Originally Posted by 1675-David

The box and papers and any other paraphernalia associated with the watch will increase it's value, as I said befor the case looks very nice although the bezel is badly worn and needs replaced. In my opinion sourcing the correct dial and a fresh bezel is makes economic sense even if a good condition mk4 dial is not cheap. Full set 1680's in the condition your watch would be after a new dial and bezel are installed are highly sought after.

Case looks pretty soft to me. See you seeing something I’m not?

[David Strong]

Originally Posted by 1675-David

The box and papers and any other paraphernalia associated with the watch will increase it's value, as I said befor the case looks very nice although the bezel is badly worn and needs replaced. In my opinion sourcing the correct dial and a fresh bezel is makes economic sense even if a good condition mk4 dial is not cheap. Full set 1680's in the condition your watch would be after a new dial and bezel are installed are highly sought after.

Thanks David, appeciated.

[David Strong]

Originally Posted by swaini3

All the best sir. Just watch out for fake or redone dials being sold as genuine. There are many threads here discussing different dials, so you know what to look for.

Thanks.

[David Strong]

Originally Posted by Styles Bitchley

Don’t discount the option of a genuine service dial. There’s no shame in that. Unless you’re a collector, I’m not sure why you’d want to put a USD12-15k dial in that’s not original to the watch (other that it looking awesome). It’s still your dad’s watch. I’d also suggest doing a bit of research on vintage Rolex specialists nearby. I don’t fest a good feeling from your current RSC experience. Did they give you the old date wheel back?

Thanks Dan,
When I came into the forum I knew it was not an original 1680 dial. I didn’t know whether it was a fake or a genuine service replacement. The advice on the thread is mixed. Some say it could be a genuine service dial and others are passionate that it’s fake. If it’s fake, then I’m not interested in it’s origin, but if it’s an authentic, it would be incredible to find it’s origin as the watch would be truely unique. Alas, based on my research and other’s advice, it’s probably fake.

As you suggest, I’ll continue to research and talk to other collectors. Maybe something will pop up. It does look good in it’s current form and with the estimated costs of real 1680 dials from the era being upwards of $10k, it won’t be replaced anytime soon.

Regarding your question on the date roller. There was none. It had been removed over 20 years ago. That was one of the reasons I had it serviced. Remember, this was very much a diver’s working watch, worn pretty much everyday underwater. Last night I went through Dad’s old diaries from 1962-1980 to see if he had written when be bought it (no evidence). I was astounded at the amount of daily underwater work he did, on ships, wharfs, cables, harbours, power stations etc. It must have been pretty badly beaten up. Now people seem to wear these for their look. Irony...

Cheers

[SDREW22]

A lot of history with this watch. Maybe leave it as is?

[stevedssd]

OP this thread may help you with the service dials and within it are links to other threads re original White dials. As has been said by others and hopefully as the thread shows, the dial is not a Rolex service dial. Good luck in your hunt to enhance your Father's watch

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=513941

[David Strong]

Hi everyone,

My name is David Strong from Wellington, New Zealand. I'm adding to this thread as:

I have recently sent the watch to a Rolex repairer in Auckland New Zealand and asked him to take the case off and photograph the back of the dial, as I wanted to see if it was real or fake.

The back of the dial and inside of the watch are new photos. My apologies for the quality of the photos, I can only work with what he sent me.

You'll see that the back of the dial has "Singer" on it. The Rolex repairer has concluded that it's a genuine Singer dial. (I can only believe what he has told me).

If anyone here has any information that may help me find out the possible year the dial was made, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Please know that I have no intention of selling this watch as it's a family heirloom.

Kind Regards,
David

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by David Strong

Hi everyone,

My name is David Strong from Wellington, New Zealand. I'm adding to this thread as:

I have recently sent the watch to a Rolex repairer in Auckland New Zealand and asked him to take the case off and photograph the back of the dial, as I wanted to see if it was real or fake.

The back of the dial and inside of the watch are new photos. My apologies for the quality of the photos, I can only work with what he sent me.

You'll see that the back of the dial has "Singer" on it. The Rolex repairer has concluded that it's a genuine Singer dial. (I can only believe what he has told me).

If anyone here has any information that may help me find out the possible year the dial was made, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Please know that I have no intention of selling this watch as it's a family heirloom.

Kind Regards,
David

I’m slightly confused. You have a new thread open with the exact same photos, about the same watch, asking for the same insight as this thread that was started almost a year ago.

[David Strong]

Hi Andy,
Yes, I seem to be doing a horrible job using threads, sorry about that! I saw the other thread had been closed by someone, I'm unsure why but think it's because I should have stuck with the original thread. So I'm using this one instead.
Regards, David

[David Strong]

The difference is that I've added the two new photos of the inside of the watch , which I've just had taken a few weeks ago.

[alwayshere]

as many of us have said already, the dial is likely a refinish.

Just because the back says "Singer" doesn't say much as they make fake "Singer" plates too. The reality is the dial front side is not of a genuine Rolex variation suggests its likely a refinish.

Again, try VRF and see if others have a different perspective but I suspect it'll be the same conclusion.

[HarryLime]

Ok, so the problem here is, you have NOT been to a Rolex Service Center. You've been to either a watchmaker attached to a Rolex dealer (which does NOT make them a Rolex watchmaker), and now someone else in New Zealand who services Rolexes who is also not a Rolex Service Center. No RSC is going to send you photos like that, and no RSC is going to simply "conclude" that a dial is legit because it says Singer on the back of it. It's really either a fake Singer dial, or a complete refinish on an old Singer dial. Also no RSC is going to release a watch in this condition.

The dial and hands are fake, full stop. That's 80%+ value of the watch. The movement is almost irrelevant here. Send it to an actual Rolex Service Center and they will replace all the fake parts and send you back your watch with new service parts. Either that, or just hunt out the original parts on your own, which will be very expensive.

[indianmachine]

Originally Posted by HarryLime

Ok, so the problem here is, you have NOT been to a Rolex Service Center. You've been to either a watchmaker attached to a Rolex dealer (which does NOT make them a Rolex watchmaker), and now someone else in New Zealand who services Rolexes who is also not a Rolex Service Center. No RSC is going to send you photos like that, and no RSC is going to simply "conclude" that a dial is legit because it says Singer on the back of it. It's really either a fake Singer dial, or a complete refinish on an old Singer dial. Also no RSC is going to release a watch in this condition.

The dial and hands are fake, full stop. That's 80%+ value of the watch. The movement is almost irrelevant here. Send it to an actual Rolex Service Center and they will replace all the fake parts and send you back your watch with new service parts. Either that, or just hunt out the original parts on your own, which will be very expensive.

+1, just send it to RSC. In addition to getting approved service parts you can get a service and polish which your watch likely needs.

[dhknola]

Unpopular opinion and can not believe I am typing this, but +1 for leaving as is.
I think the watch exudes character, my gut says the dial is some sort of service dial from years past and the bezel with ruby is 'wrong' but sort of organic and great to me. Cool watch!