Cold Case file -- 1987 Potential Fraud

[Zephyr]

It took 22 years to discover that the non-date Rolex I bought from an authorized dealer in Europe is tainted.

1. The s/n was scratched off
2. The model number was scratched off
3. The bezel appears to be aftermarket (strange color to gold)
4. The face may be aftermarket
5. The movement is marked 1570, but the watch is non-date
6. The model number sticker on the watch back is 1038, which would make it fluted bezel and sold gold
7. The case back protrudes slightly; watchmaker can't close it right

But with a magnifier one can still read the s/n and model number on the case. They did a bad job! The s/n corresponds with the warranty card, except for the middle digit. The model number on the case is 1038, just like the sticker said.

All this from a well known AD who is still in business at the same address!

What would you do?

1. Eat the problem?
2. Complain to the dealer?
3. Complain to Rolex?
4. 2 & 3?

Oh, yeah. I've got ALL the documentation. Receipt, credit card, and "Attestation de Chronometre Officiel" with the AD's stamp.

Is there any evidence that Rolex would care about old dealer scams?

Ed

[Zephyr]

Decided to call Rolex USA even though I didn't purchase the watch in the US.

Very nice Customer Service.
They are sending me a mailing package.
Will examine the tainted specimen sold in their name.

Hope looms eternal.

More later folks...
Ed

[jdrolltide3838]

Please keep us updated!

[Zephyr]

Originally Posted by jdrolltide3838

Please keep us updated!

Will do.

Thanks.

[sirjohnbrian]

All I can say is "Wow." I am really curious how this turns out.

[DARK_KNIGHT]

Interesting. The point of contention that I see is if they say that at some point , someone else (not them) tried to file off the numbers.

[Some Pair]

Can't speak for your particular model, but rubbing/wearing off most of the numbers is common from the bracelet rubbing up against the housing on certain models. This happened to my #6538 Sub (circa 1958), that was sold thru a well known buyer/seller on this sight who authenticated my Rollie for the overseas Buyer, and the problem with the numbers.

I agree with our other TRF family, let us know what "ROLEX" does. Period.

[springer]

Interesting thread. Keep us posted on what you find out.

[Zephyr]

Well, if anyone out there is following along I was just called by Rolex.

I'm absolutely amazed. Stunned, in fact.

But, before saying anything more, I really need expert input about the 1570 movement. Everything I've seen on the Internet says the 1570 has a date feature. When the case back on my watch is opened, it looks identical to this one:
http://www.abbeyclock.com/photos/watchesr.html

But, also see the date wheel shown on pg. 5.

The nice Rolex lady says it ain't so.

Ed

[greekbum]

What would you do?

1. Eat the problem?
2. Complain to the dealer?
3. Complain to Rolex?
4. 2 & 3?
I would move on. What do you expect to get? Its been 22 years. Keep us informed this is interesting.

Question in the 22 years you had the watch did you ever send it in to Rolex for service? Did anybody ever service the watch?

[Zephyr]

Originally Posted by greekbum

...What do you expect to get? Its been 27 years. Keep us informed this is interesting.

Question in the 27 years you had the watch did you ever send it in to Rolex for service? Did anybody ever service the watch?

Well, what I expect to get is honesty and some sense of accountability. It may or may not be true that I was taken advantage of 22 yrs. ago, but I will uncover the truth no matter what. Yessirree bob.

There is more that I have not yet mentioned, but right now I'm trying to just get the basic facts straight about the movement and case.

I must admit, the mystery has me increasingly curious.

Ed

[greekbum]

Originally Posted by Elkcub

Well, what I expect to get is honesty and some sense of accountability. It may or may not be true that I was taken advantage of 22 yrs. ago, but I will uncover the truth no matter what. Yessirree bob.

There is more that I have not yet mentioned, but right now I'm trying to just get the basic facts straight about the movement and case.

I must admit, the mystery has me increasingly curious.

Ed

Post nice pics of the case,case back and movement and I am sure there are guys here that will chime in.You mentioned watchmaker not being able to close the watch?Was this the watches 1st service as service history is very important in your quest I believe.

[onkyo]

Yes, please post some more pictures.... as this is very interesting.

What else did Rolex say?

[Zephyr]

Rolex still has the watch so I can't take more pictures.

Let me just summarize by saying they have denied everything and are morphing the issue into what it would cost to refurbish the watch. That's NOT what I'm interested in, nor is it what I asked in my cover letter.

Until I can get some real, factual information that make sense I'll bite my tongue.

Incidentally, I should have titled the thread "... a potential scam."

If it turns out I'm wrong I'll be pleased to admit it.

Ed

[Zephyr]

So, I'd greatly appreciate knowing whether the 1570 movement is for a non-date watch. 'Cuz that's what's been in there from day one.

[whcrowder]

Check out this thread...

http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=774

[greekbum]

Hope this helps you.

Did you rush to conclusions to early?

It took 22 years to discover that the non-date Rolex I bought from an authorized dealer in Europe is tainted.

1. The s/n was scratched off
2. The model number was scratched off
3. The bezel appears to be aftermarket (strange color to gold)
4. The face may be aftermarket
5. The movement is marked 1570, but the watch is non-date
6. The model number sticker on the watch back is 1038, which would make it fluted bezel and sold gold
7. The case back protrudes slightly; watchmaker can't close it right

Pictures of all of this would help us help you

Numbers 1,2 You said with a magnifier one can still read the s/n and model number on the case many older models require a loope or magnifier to read the numbers clearly.If you are not familiar with case markings the ruff finish could look like filing when the numbers are faint.

Numbers 3,4,6 have a look here for a reference http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/l...jectID=5091506

Number 5 (The 1570 (no date) and the 1575 (date) are the same movements. The addition of a "5" indicates a date feature)

Number 7 Does the watchmaker know what he is doing or saying?

[Zephyr]

Many thanks to all, and particularly whcrowder and greekbum. That's exactly what I was looking for.

The site that I was using as a reference for the 1570 movement (see post #9) was deceptive, since no mention was made of 1575 being the date version. On the other hand, I can clearly see 1570 stamped on his model and it is obviously a date model. Someone else can figure that out.

Since the Christies auction was for the identical model as mine, including the TT oyster band, I'm very pleased to be able to accept Rolex' evaluation of authenticity. My watchmaker is an innocent, however, since he only pointed out that the markings on the case and movement led his supplier to send the crystal for a date model. (The bad case closure was not his doing either.) One would think if the 1570 were known to be the non-date model that would not have happened. But it did. Twice.

Again, I'll leave that to others, but several other sources discuss the 1570 in the context of date and date-just watches.
http://www.horologist.com/datejust.htm
http://biggerbids.com/archive/auctio...complete-.html

And some sources discuss it in the context of non-date.
http://www.omegarolex.com/details/1570.html

So, I'm still not completely convinced about all this.

Anyway, noting that Christies watch fetched only $960 at auction in 2008, (which included a TT oyster band) I don't think I'm likely to invest $600 any time soon with Rolex to fix up mine.

Again, many thanks to all.


Ed

[Zephyr]

Originally Posted by greekbum

Hope this helps you.

Did you rush to conclusions to early?

...
Numbers 1,2 You said with a magnifier one can still read the s/n and model number on the case many older models require a loope or magnifier to read the numbers clearly.If you are not familiar with case markings the ruff finish could look like filing when the numbers are faint.

Numbers 3,4,6 have a look here for a reference http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/l...jectID=5091506

Number 5 (The 1570 (no date) and the 1575 (date) are the same movements. The addition of a "5" indicates a date feature)

Number 7 Does the watchmaker know what he is doing or saying?

As mentioned above, I really appreciate your efforts. I'm only trying to get to be bottom of this mystery.

I am quite familiar with loop magnifiers as my real hobby is optics, not Rolex watches. My watchmaker and I each took independent readings of the s/n and then noticed the discrepancy with the "Official Guarantee" after I dragged it out of the safe. Rolex denies the discrepancy.

Examining the four Christies auctions starting with #2544 (which looks like mine):
#2544 non-Date, Calibre 157
#2545 non-Date, Calibre 645
#2546 Date, Calibre 1570
#2547 Date-Just, Calibre 1570

If mine were the same product as shown on auction #2544 it would have a 157 movement, if there is such a thing. It is conceivable that that Christies made a mistake stating 157 and should have said 1570. But, the other old non-Date model also has a three digit calibre code (645). Even more suggestive, the auction watch is dated well before Rolex's introduction of the 1570 movement in 1972. Of course, Christies might have also have been inaccurate in their dating.

The two auctions with date features, one a "Date" and the other a "Date-Just", have 1570 movements. Obviously, this does not support the statement that "...The 1570 (no date) and the 1575 (date) are the same movements. The addition of a "5" indicates a date feature." Trying to find even partial evidence to support the assertion, I also looked at all current Rolex watches on eBay that include 1570 in the title. All 18 hits were date feature models — without exception. (I didn't get any hits with 1575 in the title.)

Looking further at past forum threads I came across http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?p=498628, which is entitled: "The GMT 1675 movement, is it a 1570 or 1575." There the now-famous statement was made by Mike (moderator) in post #9, but I have to say it was in the context of GMT 1675 movements, and not Date, Date-Just, or non-date models. I don't think it can be generalized.

So the mystery continues, and since my wife and I each currently use legitimate Rolex watches, purchased in the US, there is nothing to lose by tracking this curious matter wherever it leads. And I will. My investment, my fun.

Always happy to discuss details further, but I will post more info after my unserviced watch is returned by Rolex.

Thanks again,
Ed

[greekbum]

As mentioned above, I really appreciate your efforts. I'm only trying to get to be bottom of this mystery.I think I solved it for the most part but I will try again for you.
My watchmaker and I each took independent readings of the s/n and then noticed the discrepancy with the "Official Guarantee" after I dragged it out of the safe. Rolex denies the discrepancy.Question are the papers punched or filled in?I have had many watches in the past where the AD Missed a digit or wrote a bad number on the guarantee no big deal as the warranty is no longer any good.

It is conceivable that that Christies made a mistake stating 157 and should have said 1570.They are trying to sell something and they make many mistakes. Again the movement thing is solved.Your watch has the right movement.
Are you planning on servicing the watch?Rolex gave you an estimate i am sure it is serviceable? Its a nice looking example of a 2 tone.

[Zephyr]

Likewise. I appreciate your efforts to lead me back on the true path, but I don't believe you solved the "movement thing" at all. Have you not read my prior post? Look at the other Christies auctions I pointed out — particularly the two date and date-just models with 1570 not 1575 movements. Did Christies make more mistakes? Look for yourself on eBay and determine how many 1570 auctions have date vs non-date features. Perhaps all those vendors have made mistakes too. C'mon, however well intended your "solution" may be, it doesn't really square with the facts.

I meant to say above that I am not having Rolex service the watch, and I didn't ask for an estimate either. This specimen is so unique that I want it returned unchanged. I would simply appreciate a written statement from them addressing all my questions about authenticity. Do you think they'll provide it?

Thanks, again, for your efforts to help.
Ed

[Zephyr]

Just to finish up this thread on a happy note, I received Rolex's repair estimate today. In their model description of the watch, one word caught my eye, and it was the word "zephyr." The watch has a zephyr bezel. A Google search immediately revealed that this type of bezel is often associated with a minimalist crosshair face. "Zephyr" is the name given by Rolex to this dial configuration. And, finally, a model-to-caliber table materialized that matches the 1038/34 with a 1570 movement. Early Zephyr models had 1530/1560 movements; mine has a 1570. I'm a happy camper.

So, in spite of several "expert" web sites that show the construction of a 1570 movement with a date wheel, they apparently do not all have or use the date feature. Different species, perhaps? My interest stops here. Bird-watching is bad enough; watch-watching is out.

And, by the way I am going to have my Zephyr model serviced by Rolex.


Ed

[fobs]

Originally Posted by Elkcub

As mentioned above, I really appreciate your efforts. I'm only trying to get to be bottom of this mystery.

I am quite familiar with loop magnifiers as my real hobby is optics, not Rolex watches. My watchmaker and I each took independent readings of the s/n and then noticed the discrepancy with the "Official Guarantee" after I dragged it out of the safe. Rolex denies the discrepancy.

Examining the four Christies auctions starting with #2544 (which looks like mine):
#2544 non-Date, Calibre 157
#2545 non-Date, Calibre 645
#2546 Date, Calibre 1570
#2547 Date-Just, Calibre 1570

If mine were the same product as shown on auction #2544 it would have a 157 movement, if there is such a thing. It is conceivable that that Christies made a mistake stating 157 and should have said 1570. But, the other old non-Date model also has a three digit calibre code (645). Even more suggestive, the auction watch is dated well before Rolex's introduction of the 1570 movement in 1972. Of course, Christies might have also have been inaccurate in their dating.

The two auctions with date features, one a "Date" and the other a "Date-Just", have 1570 movements. Obviously, this does not support the statement that "...The 1570 (no date) and the 1575 (date) are the same movements. The addition of a "5" indicates a date feature." Trying to find even partial evidence to support the assertion, I also looked at all current Rolex watches on eBay that include 1570 in the title. All 18 hits were date feature models — without exception. (I didn't get any hits with 1575 in the title.)

Looking further at past forum threads I came across http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?p=498628, which is entitled: "The GMT 1675 movement, is it a 1570 or 1575." There the now-famous statement was made by Mike (moderator) in post #9, but I have to say it was in the context of GMT 1675 movements, and not Date, Date-Just, or non-date models. I don't think it can be generalized.

So the mystery continues, and since my wife and I each currently use legitimate Rolex watches, purchased in the US, there is nothing to lose by tracking this curious matter wherever it leads. And I will. My investment, my fun.

Always happy to discuss details further, but I will post more info after my unserviced watch is returned by Rolex.

Thanks again,
Ed

my 1965 oyster1005 has a 1570 movement, no-date

auctioneers know in-depth abt watches they are selling? i think you made the correct choice of having the AD authenticate your watch

[YuppieKid]

[Zephyr]

Originally Posted by fobs

my 1965 oyster1005 has a 1570 movement, no-date

auctioneers know in-depth abt watches they are selling? i think you made the correct choice of having the AD authenticate your watch

Thanks, I do too. Admittedly it was hard to give up my suspicions, but when they mentioned a "Zephyr" bezel the truth was out. Apparently, there is quite a history to the Zephyr models, which I'm a little surprised no one mentioned:

http://www.vetroplastica.it/Rolex-Zephyr-14.html

Mine was probably one of the last ones made between 1968-1975 with a 1570 movement. Note there is a later Zephyr with a 1575 movement that is a rare date model.

The general statement that the 1570 and 1575 only differ with regard to the date feature, however, is most likely incorrect. According to several Internet sources, which show detailed pictures of a 1570 movement, it would seem that some have the date and others not. They may be marked differently; I don't know. As for what auctioneers know or don't know, of course, that's always an open question. In my area of specialization (silver belt buckles) I would say it's precious little, but then I've learned a great deal from a few of them. According to the table posted earlier, your non-date 1005 should have either a 1560 or 1570 movement.

To make it easier, here is an online translation of the Italian Zephyr article. Based on this I had no reluctance having Rolex USA proceed to refurbish the watch.

Rolex Zephyr 1008Le origins of the first Rolex Zephyr date from the mid '50s, when the reference is marketed 6582.
This model introduces for the first time the two typical elements that will become the distinguishing characteristics of Zephyr range of years to come: the dial to particular sectors and the graduated bezel.
The decoration of the dial is made of two perpendicular lines that divide it into four areas, just as happens on some copies of the Rolex Tru-Beat. The silver is the most common variant, but are also made quadrants blacks and golds.
The indices of the hours are just points of light material and help to achieve a minimalist look and very clean style.
The game ball can be "leaf" or Dauphine, identical to those used on many Rolex models of the same era.
The print is written in black and at 12 is applied to the classic Rolex crown.
Some rare examples of ref. 6582 show on the dial indicating the maximum depth reached (50m-165ft) printed in red and are considered among the most sought after Rolex Zephyr at collectors.
The skirt has a feature processing, then called astral Rolex on a catalog of 1960, with indexes incised to allow for more immediate reading time.
The movement used is the cal. 1030 with certification stopwatch and characterized by rotor butterfly.
This first version of the Rolex Zephyr is available only in combination Rolesor steel and gold tones in yellow or pink, and remains in production until the end of the '50s.

Rolex Zephyr 1029Il next model is characterized by ref. 1008 and is marketed since 1959 or so.
The most significant changes are made since the new caliber 1560 (replaced by the new round the '65 cal. 1570 to 19,800 a / h) and a winding crown from 5.3mm to 6mm in place of that used on the previous Rolex Zephyr ref. 6582.
At the same time, the usual version Rolesor is flanked by a variant made entirely of 14kt yellow gold, which keeps the ref. 1008, and the model 1009 18kt gold. The ref. 1029 instead identifies a special version of the Zephyr with 18kt gold bezel decorated with a moire finish, usually accompanied by a special bracelet coordinated.
The production of ref. 1008/1009 continues until the advent of the '70s, when Rolex presents the new Zephyr ref. 1038 to replace them.

The transition between the two models occurs gradually, as can be deduced from a Rolex catalog advertising that demonstrates both the previous ref. 1008 and subsequent ref. 1038, available both in the combination steel and gold version 18kt gold still identified by the same reference.
With the new edition of the Rolex Zephyr makes its appearance is also a new face that retains the prerogative of the division of sectors but has a new index finger printed, characterized by a considerable length.
In this quadrant are matched new hands "to stick", certainly more in line with the aesthetic of the '70s.
A further difference compared to its predecessor aesthetics is the work of the bezel, which is now the indices were carved rectangular instead of the triangular shape typical of previous Rolex Zephyr.

Rolex Rolex Zephyr 1038Nello same period also markets a rare version of the Zephyr with date, identified by the ref. 1512 and moved by the movement cal. 1575.
E 'strictly derived from the most common ref. 1038 and there are probably only been realized in gold, 14kt and 18kt versions.
Marketed mainly on the U.S. market, the Rolex Zephyr Date is one of the rarest variants of the range along with the first models produced in the mid 50s.

The production of the Rolex Zephyr ending in the mid '70s, after a long career in sales and a positive feedback especially on the North American market.
And 'interesting to note that a matching bezel / dial very similar will continue to be offered on some models Oyster Perpetual Lady measure up to the end of the 90s.

I appreciate the interest expressed by all on this thread. I'd be more than pleased if someone else would clarify the 1570 date/no-date issue, since it's out of my league.
Ed

[Paulie]

Great to hear a happy ending at the er, end. Please post pics when you get it back!

[deserted]

I have a question, did the gold discoloration make you suspect something, i do know that 24k gold is a little darker than 18k, did these ever cross your mind at all i'm very interested to know what happens in this case , keep us posted and let me know the answer to the question.

[Zephyr]

Paulie — I will post pictures. I'm also curious what RUSA will do with the oyster SS band, which has a few serious problems.

Deserted — Yes, the gold discoloration did add to my suspicions, along with the other factors mentioned above. It's all a matter of how the 10/24 (14K) or 6/24 (18K) non-gold portion tarnishes.

Ed

[fobs]

Originally Posted by YuppieKid

hmm,... which watch are you referring to???

[Orchi]

Err buddy Ed...welcome to the TRF...!

Here's your watch...Ref 1038.



As much as Orchi can tell from that picture...
the Rolex AD in Europe had sold you a correct watch...

When you mentioned that you bought it from them since 22 years ago...
Orchi believes it was a used watch...
because Rolex stopped making this Ref by 1976 or so...

When you bought it...did it come with a bracelet or leather strap...?

Orchi hasn't read all the postings in here...but can you check
against the papers to see what's the Case Serial Prefix on the case between the lugs at 6 o'clock...?

As per your question regarding its movement...
since Cal.1570 movement is adjusted n certified chronometer...
the ones with DATE wheel mechanism or without...
do share the SAME Rotor winding assembly...n ALL Markings.

On the base frame of the Rotor winding assembly...it's USUALLY only marked as...."1570"...
because this frame is interchangeable...
irrespective of whether the movement has DATE wheel mechanism...or not...

That's ROLEX...

P/S: IF it was up to Orchi...
Orchi would get RUSA or RSC or any competent watchmaker to service the movement...only.
The rest should be left as is...nice.