FP Journe Appreciation Thread, an Evolution.

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by gliazzurri

I think this entire concept is totally messed up. It is straight up bizarre to have to write an essay fundamentally to get something like this. I understand the market, the production, the interest, the supply and demand conversations that happen here or on car forums but seriously…if you take a step back and ask yourselves what are we really doing here by having to go through such machinations to buy a watch? Or a car etc? It is borderline absurd. No, it is absurd. Some brands requiring a one page book report to determine if you are good enough. Others wanting to know your income or similar profile material. This sort of nonsense ruins the experience for those without the street cred already because you can’t even pay to play and I also think it just gives the whole industry a bad rap. The discussions of 4, 5, 9, n years to buy a fill in the blank watch to be on a waitlist is just crazy. If it is like that, don’t have a list. Don’t tell people to wait. One is not getting it and no one except for the chosen ones will have it for half a decade. Or more. I’ve had these situations come up and readily moved on. They should just say no. Don’t give impressions that will not be managed realistically.

Absolutely agree. I'm pretty much done jumping through hoops. I'm not buying my way into getting a watch I want. I'm done kissing rear ends of salespeople, brand ambassadors and boutique managers. If I don't get a watch, fine. There will be others. This hobby has become a chore and a practice in elitism.

[mchen42]

I am sorry that they can not give you the CB which you do like the most. However, you still have the CS as the entry point. CS shares with the same 1304 movement with CB and the CS Havana.

I am 27 and I got several Journes. My first Journe is a CS purchased in 2020. They do nice to young customers.

Originally Posted by _speedmaster_

By Journe's own account, the CB was meant to be the gateway watch; the watch for newcomers to get into the brand. We are told he apparently hates what has become of the CB, it is not what he intended it to be. The company is also saying they are trying to foster and "cultivate" a community of watch enthusiasts. In practice, they are allocating the watches to existing customers at the expense of newcomers. That is the antithesis of what they are preaching. Hence the hypocrisy.

You can choose to drink the kool-aid all you want. I'm not here to argue what the best business practice would be. I'm not here to argue if newcomers would turn around and buy other watches. Im stating the very clear fact that this brand does not practice what they preach.

While we are on the subject of "enthusiasts". I identified the CB as a watch I would like to have 3.5 years ago (when I was 31). I apologize if I didn't have the money at 31 for a resonance or tourbillon to prove my loyalty. I apologize that I didn't have the funds to outright buy one in my late 20s when they were readily available. I guess that doesn't make me an enthusiast. I also love that existing customers (or people with unlimited funds to buy their way in) who realized they want a CB in 2021 get priority over me. They are true enthusiasts, right?

At the end of the day, the brands should tread carefully how they treat potential new customers. By and large, they are alienating younger customers who will become the majority buyers in 15 years.

[CFR]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Niiice, how is Albert's new location? So, how is EWC's new digs? Hey, did you ever buy his book, the pics and info are spectacular!!!

EWC's new digs are deceiving. You exit the elevator into a nice, modest-size waiting room with a few Barcelona chairs. Then you go back into a fairly small, unadorned showroom (with nothing in the cases yet), about the size of the old one. That looks like it.

But it's not.

Behind the walls of those public spaces, the place is the size of an aircraft hangar. Several full-time photographers, case restoration/refinishing metalsmiths, Dan's watchmaking area (as far away from the public as possible, wisely, so nobody bugs him), as well as workstations and offices for an army of salespeople, shipping people, receiving/cataloguing people, Albert/Josh/etc.

I do have a copy of their book from years ago, if we're talking about the same book -- a large hardcover volume. I think it's in Florida, actually.

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Let us all take a moment to fully appreciate this fantastic chonographe. Am not sure the wait for one, yet 2022 already has a Czapek Monochrome, and 2023 is the MB&F LM101... (plus a few other 'normal' pieces over the months including my wife's Rolex TIF we're waiting on). FPJ is 2024 at the soonest, perhaps 2025.

Wow! That's a nice lineup to wait for!

Originally Posted by marcusgoh

I find it hilarious that these “enthusiasts” are calling the brand hypocritical just because they are not allocated one of the most popular yet one of the most affordable watch in the collection as a first purchase. The CB’s list price is probably not far off from the cost of making that watch.

And chances are once these “enthusiasts” get it, will they continue supporting the brand in purchasing other pieces? I have my doubts.

How is this model sustainable for a business? It doesn’t sounds like those are enthusiasts of the brand; but rather enthusiasts of just a model.

I can't think of a good way to deal with this situation in general:

• The CB is the brand's "entry-level" mechanical watch (price-wise).
  
• Many people who've bought (and who want to buy) the CB can't afford a more expensive Journe, so being "blacklisted" by the brand if they sell/flip their CB later (should they ever get one in the first place) wouldn't give them pause.
  
• The pressure to sell/flip increases as the secondary market price increases; it's easier to fall out of love with a watch if its price goes from $18,000 USD to $90,000 USD in just 3 years.

So what's the best way for the brand to deal with this? One sensible way is to sell the CBs to longtime FPJ collectors who now want to add a CB. It's way of rewarding those who are passionate, loyal, and are actually be deterred from flipping/selling by knowing they'd be blacklisted. But of course that approach freezes out those would-be CB owners of lesser means. It also turns the concept of an "entry-level" piece on its head. [The Lange analogue is the stainless steel Odysseus Datomatic.]

I'm not defending this approach. I'm just saying no optimal solution jumps out at me.

[Ichiran]

Apologies, but how does a Boutique measure the "passion" or a stranger's enthusiasm in FPJ? Is there an objective set of barometers to gauge?

When thousands of strangers without purchase relationships walk in to ask for a limited number of watches, what's the best way to allocate your watches if you are the Boutique? They all appear to be honest, enthusiastic and young would-be customers with great potential to be the biggest whales.

First-come-first-serve? Nice smile? Good writing skill? Handsome/pretty?

[gliazzurri]

Originally Posted by marcusgoh

I find it hilarious that these “enthusiasts” are calling the brand hypocritical just because they are not allocated one of the most popular yet one of the most affordable watch in the collection as a first purchase. The CB’s list price is probably not far off from the cost of making that watch.

And chances are once these “enthusiasts” get it, will they continue supporting the brand in purchasing other pieces? I have my doubts.

How is this model sustainable for a business? It doesn’t sounds like those are enthusiasts of the brand; but rather enthusiasts of just a model.

A few thoughts about your comment here. My thoughts are directed at the concept you are writing about and not you specifically so please understand that and is not a personal attack. Though the sentiment you write about is decidedly found in many areas of watch collecting and also the higher end car world as I noted in another post here. And it is a point that really rubs me the wrong way as someone who has a foot in both areas of collecting.
Many times over it is written that people are complaining about not getting what they want. Whether that is a specific model, a specific color, having to wait, having to pay extra over retail and the like. I struggle to see why that is a problem in any domain. There are plenty of people/collectors/enthusiasts out there who really want to experience the item, a watch, a car whatever it is. It is frustrating to take interest in something, maybe only recently being able to afford perhaps in many cases, and not realize it by having a chance to purchase and experience. I know I can handle that myself and suspect others can too, but having a discussion about the reasons why it is a problem or why a brand behaves a certain way or what ethos a brand or dealership has regarding customer service seems off-putting to the "old guard" so to speak who has been in the game for some time longer.
Should one bring up these points here or more obvious to me on car forums, one is labeled a troll or as noted here, questioned as a real enthusiast (aka not a real buyer). Is this really how this should be taken? What is a real enthusiast? What is a real buyer? Does this really matter at all, other than to say that, yes, there are some people out there solely intending to flip watches? Excluding that group, how are the other watch buyers and collectors really needing to be stratified? Is someone who recently got interested, yet deeply diving into horology as a newbie not capable of being an enthusiast? Is that person to be characterized differently from one who has collected for 20 years because of their relative age and net worth over those 20 years? Shouldn't all of us really be comrades of the hobby and be happy and satisfied that we share a passion together? Some of the dialogue starts to blend into a feeling that it is a selected gentleman's club that only certain individuals can enter with the proper qualifications.
Speaking for myself, I tried about a year to 1.5 years ago to buy a FPJ from an AD. I had been newly into this hobby. Was a total novice and learning, reading trying to upload as much info as I could. That's how I go into everything that I get interested in. Because of some of the styling, color choices, history and technical design, I found the FPJ brand exciting in the field of what was out there. I am not one to like the mainstream big mass appeal brands. Again, no real background in the hobby at all. Because of both simplicity of design and lower cost of entry, I was interested in the CB or similar CS models with different dial colors. Wasn't ready to get into substantially higher cost models as I was only dipping my feet into this world. And yes, they weren't available. Nothing was available even in any option of interest, even midrange (though that was more than I was interested in spending). And was told I was effectively not a good enough customer yet to have the opportunity to receive. And that I wouldn't be likely to get anything from the brand for quite some time at best.
So I moved on and tried to find an AP which was equally impossible until regrettably using the grey market. And then happily started diving deeply into Moser models and have filled out some nice space from this brand, so much so that I happily consider myself an enthusiast of the brand and in general with this hobby, even though I just started. The thing is, if FPJ originally had merchandise, I probably would have 3-4 of those as of today instead. I'm a serial monogamist with brands.
I don't think one needs to buy all models of a brand to be an enthusiast, whatever that word means. One can have design interests, love of the movement, love of the art of the piece, functionality, history etc. I continue to find it strange though, that effectively "reward" pieces are the most inexpensive ones in FPJ, PP, AP areas. It's so upside down. Getting a super rare car allocation seems like a reward, not getting a mass production vehicle or entry level model. I think this is the sentiment noted by the other poster here, which I have often pondered and do agree with the backwards nature of that. These should be pieces that more people can experience as entry level to get into the brands and then grab interest to spend more on more unique complications and so forth.
Just my account and opinions here. Not a hater of the brand...would have loved to be a multi-piece FPJ owner after about a year now but it's not in the cards.

[marcusgoh]

Originally Posted by _speedmaster_

By Journe's own account, the CB was meant to be the gateway watch; the watch for newcomers to get into the brand. We are told he apparently hates what has become of the CB, it is not what he intended it to be. The company is also saying they are trying to foster and "cultivate" a community of watch enthusiasts. In practice, they are allocating the watches to existing customers at the expense of newcomers. That is the antithesis of what they are preaching. Hence the hypocrisy.

You can choose to drink the kool-aid all you want. I'm not here to argue what the best business practice would be. I'm not here to argue if newcomers would turn around and buy other watches. Im stating the very clear fact that this brand does not practice what they preach.

While we are on the subject of "enthusiasts". I identified the CB as a watch I would like to have 3.5 years ago (when I was 31). I apologize if I didn't have the money at 31 for a resonance or tourbillon to prove my loyalty. I apologize that I didn't have the funds to outright buy one in my late 20s when they were readily available. I guess that doesn't make me an enthusiast. I also love that existing customers (or people with unlimited funds to buy their way in) who realized they want a CB in 2021 get priority over me. They are true enthusiasts, right?

At the end of the day, the brands should tread carefully how they treat potential new customers. By and large, they are alienating younger customers who will become the majority buyers in 15 years.

I think you’re missing the point. Every single timepiece out of the factory is in demand. Instead of selling watches only to existing customers, they are allowing the opportunity for enthusiasts to purchase certain models, models that sell for more than list in the open market; just not the CB.

I was given the opportunity to purchase the CS Nacre as my first Journe. And I’m pretty sure there is a list of Journe owners looking to add that piece in their collection. So I do think there’s merit in what they have set out to do. Perhaps you can consider another model instead. After all, the brand is more than just the CB. I’m sure as an enthusiast you would agree.

[marcusgoh]

Originally Posted by mchen42

I am sorry that they can not give you the CB which you do like the most. However, you still have the CS as the entry point. CS shares with the same 1304 movement with CB and the CS Havana.

I am 27 and I got several Journes. My first Journe is a CS purchased in 2020. They do nice to young customers.

Exactly. I was given the opportunity to purchase the CS Nacre as my first Journe. And while it isn’t the CB, it still is a truly beautiful watch. And unlike most other brands, I was not asked to purchase watches I do not want. I wanted that CS Nacre.

[marcusgoh]

Originally Posted by _speedmaster_

Absolutely agree. I'm pretty much done jumping through hoops. I'm not buying my way into getting a watch I want. I'm done kissing rear ends of salespeople, brand ambassadors and boutique managers. If I don't get a watch, fine. There will be others. This hobby has become a chore and a practice in elitism.

It’s unfortunate that you aren't able to find another Journe you like other than the CB. But that’s just the way thing are now. Hope you’ll be able to get something you like from another brand.

[marcusgoh]

Originally Posted by gliazzurri

A few thoughts about your comment here. My thoughts are directed at the concept you are writing about and not you specifically so please understand that and is not a personal attack. Though the sentiment you write about is decidedly found in many areas of watch collecting and also the higher end car world as I noted in another post here. And it is a point that really rubs me the wrong way as someone who has a foot in both areas of collecting.
Many times over it is written that people are complaining about not getting what they want. Whether that is a specific model, a specific color, having to wait, having to pay extra over retail and the like. I struggle to see why that is a problem in any domain. There are plenty of people/collectors/enthusiasts out there who really want to experience the item, a watch, a car whatever it is. It is frustrating to take interest in something, maybe only recently being able to afford perhaps in many cases, and not realize it by having a chance to purchase and experience. I know I can handle that myself and suspect others can too, but having a discussion about the reasons why it is a problem or why a brand behaves a certain way or what ethos a brand or dealership has regarding customer service seems off-putting to the "old guard" so to speak who has been in the game for some time longer.
Should one bring up these points here or more obvious to me on car forums, one is labeled a troll or as noted here, questioned as a real enthusiast (aka not a real buyer). Is this really how this should be taken? What is a real enthusiast? What is a real buyer? Does this really matter at all, other than to say that, yes, there are some people out there solely intending to flip watches? Excluding that group, how are the other watch buyers and collectors really needing to be stratified? Is someone who recently got interested, yet deeply diving into horology as a newbie not capable of being an enthusiast? Is that person to be characterized differently from one who has collected for 20 years because of their relative age and net worth over those 20 years? Shouldn't all of us really be comrades of the hobby and be happy and satisfied that we share a passion together? Some of the dialogue starts to blend into a feeling that it is a selected gentleman's club that only certain individuals can enter with the proper qualifications.
Speaking for myself, I tried about a year to 1.5 years ago to buy a FPJ from an AD. I had been newly into this hobby. Was a total novice and learning, reading trying to upload as much info as I could. That's how I go into everything that I get interested in. Because of some of the styling, color choices, history and technical design, I found the FPJ brand exciting in the field of what was out there. I am not one to like the mainstream big mass appeal brands. Again, no real background in the hobby at all. Because of both simplicity of design and lower cost of entry, I was interested in the CB or similar CS models with different dial colors. Wasn't ready to get into substantially higher cost models as I was only dipping my feet into this world. And yes, they weren't available. Nothing was available even in any option of interest, even midrange (though that was more than I was interested in spending). And was told I was effectively not a good enough customer yet to have the opportunity to receive. And that I wouldn't be likely to get anything from the brand for quite some time at best.
So I moved on and tried to find an AP which was equally impossible until regrettably using the grey market. And then happily started diving deeply into Moser models and have filled out some nice space from this brand, so much so that I happily consider myself an enthusiast of the brand and in general with this hobby, even though I just started. The thing is, if FPJ originally had merchandise, I probably would have 3-4 of those as of today instead. I'm a serial monogamist with brands.
I don't think one needs to buy all models of a brand to be an enthusiast, whatever that word means. One can have design interests, love of the movement, love of the art of the piece, functionality, history etc. I continue to find it strange though, that effectively "reward" pieces are the most inexpensive ones in FPJ, PP, AP areas. It's so upside down. Getting a super rare car allocation seems like a reward, not getting a mass production vehicle or entry level model. I think this is the sentiment noted by the other poster here, which I have often pondered and do agree with the backwards nature of that. These should be pieces that more people can experience as entry level to get into the brands and then grab interest to spend more on more unique complications and so forth.
Just my account and opinions here. Not a hater of the brand...would have loved to be a multi-piece FPJ owner after about a year now but it's not in the cards.

No worries, definitely not offended. I think it’s perfectly fine to have a discussion; that’s what makes forums interesting. I just disagree on the notion that one is a Journe enthusiast just because they like the CB, and only the CB.

All Journe watches in this year’s production have been spoken for, so you won’t be able to purchase anything immediately, regardless the cheapest or most expensive watch. But I do believe they will consider your interest in the CS. Drop by the boutique, speak to the sales staff; they are nice people.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by gliazzurri

I think this entire concept is totally messed up. It is straight up bizarre to have to write an essay fundamentally to get something like this.

Imho i love the concept! It takes hundreds to thousands of hours to artistically create a mechanical timepiece. Is it too much to ask a customer to take an hour to write why they desire.... ?

Having currency does not mean you automatically should receive something. Not everything in life is for sale to anyone just because you have currency / credit available. Besides, the best things in life are free.

"It is only in the heart that one can see rightly;
what is essential is invisible to the eye."
-- The Little Prince

In a sense, TIME is invisible to the eye, yet plays a large role in your life. In fact TIME is the most important commodity we have imho, and with each passing second there's less of it available.

The discussions of 4, 5, 9, n years to buy a fill in the blank watch to be on a waitlist is just crazy. If it is like that, don’t have a list. Don’t tell people to wait.

This is the perfect opportunity for you to consider starting your own timepiece brand. Yes, am being very serious. Then you can make the rules and create masterful pieces you love, and hope others do as well and appreciate your sweat equity.

You may have heard this story before, you see there was this guy, he built farm tractors for a living and wanted a fancy car, yet Enzo Ferrari being Enzo.... So he started his own exotic car brand.

Love your passion! You really should consider taking your love to the next level. You can do it... if you truly desire to

If you truly wish to be......

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by marcusgoh

I think you’re missing the point. Every single timepiece out of the factory is in demand. Instead of selling watches only to existing customers, they are allowing the opportunity for enthusiasts to purchase certain models, models that sell for more than list in the open market; just not the CB.

I was given the opportunity to purchase the CS Nacre as my first Journe. And I’m pretty sure there is a list of Journe owners looking to add that piece in their collection. So I do think there’s merit in what they have set out to do. Perhaps you can consider another model instead. After all, the brand is more than just the CB. I’m sure as an enthusiast you would agree.

Originally Posted by marcusgoh

It’s unfortunate that you aren't able to find another Journe you like other than the CB. But that’s just the way thing are now. Hope you’ll be able to get something you like from another brand.

I love the CS havana as well and put my name on that list. I'm not going to purchase other models I don't love, though. I won't play those games and I don't care if I never get my watch as a result. It's not of utmost importance to me.

My point though is, just be honest as a brand. That is all i am saying. They prioritize current clientele for all of their hot models; there's nothing wrong with that. Just be honest. Don't tell people you are cultivating a community of enthusiasts and then shun them away from the models everyone likes. Don't tell people to fill out lengthy applications only to tell them they have no chance after they have waited years. Don't tell me Journe himself loathes what is happening to the CB and then continue to conduct yourself opposite of his supposed intentions. You are no different than other brands. Stop kidding yourself and everyone else.

I've moved on years ago, I just leave my name on the lists with zero anticipation of ever getting either watch. I'm not a person to obsess, especially over one brand. If I get a watch, great. If not, there are others. As it stands, this whole thing has put me off to the brand and I have found other independents that I connect with much more that don't practice these tactics. It was a watchmaker and a brand I loved when I first got into watches. Now, I honestly feel nothing for them. They won't miss me. I won't miss them.

I don't want to ruin this thread, which is meant to be an appreciation of the brand, with these discussions. So I'll bow out after having said my peace.

[GB-man]

I found the Journe boutique to be pretty straightforward in my dealings but I wasn’t seeking nor will I ever the CB as I don’t find it intriguing. I was in the fortunate position to be seeking linesport watches first as Journe is maybe the only hot brand where collectors prefer (rightfully so) the strap watches.

Unfortunately in speedys case it’s not far off from the many people who were told they could get a 5711 in 2016-2017 only to find that offer evaporate as the market changed. Fortunately the CB is not unlike the 5711 in that it may receive a lot of hype but it’s not even top 50% of Journe offerings imho.

[marcusgoh]

Originally Posted by _speedmaster_

I love the CS havana as well and put my name on that list. I'm not going to purchase other models I don't love, though. I won't play those games and I don't care if I never get my watch as a result. It's not of utmost importance to me.

My point though is, just be honest as a brand. That is all i am saying. They prioritize current clientele for all of their hot models; there's nothing wrong with that. Just be honest. Don't tell people you are cultivating a community of enthusiasts and then shun them away from the models everyone likes. Don't tell people to fill out lengthy applications only to tell them they have no chance after they have waited years. Don't tell me Journe himself loathes what is happening to the CB and then continue to conduct yourself opposite of his supposed intentions. You are no different than other brands. Stop kidding yourself and everyone else.

I've moved on years ago, I just leave my name on the lists with zero anticipation of ever getting either watch. I'm not a person to obsess, especially over one brand. If I get a watch, great. If not, there are others. As it stands, this whole thing has put me off to the brand and I have found other independents that I connect with much more that don't practice these tactics. It was a watchmaker and a brand I loved when I first got into watches. Now, I honestly feel nothing for them. They won't miss me. I won't miss them.

I don't want to ruin this thread, which is meant to be an appreciation of the brand, with these discussions. So I'll bow out after having said my peace.

To be fair, all Journe models are hot models. It’s just a matter of how hot. As much as Journe loathes what is happening to the CB, it makes no sense to allocate it to anyone who wants one. It will not solve anything.

I think it’s just a necessary step for them to take in the position that they are in now. Those independent brands that you connect with now will do the same as well if ever they are in the same position. Don’t take it too personally; it’s just a watch at the end of the day. Also, I do hope you get the CS Havana someday.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by _speedmaster_

I did appreciate his honesty about the current environment. Seems to be a sentiment shared by other brands as well, Ed Meylan (the CEO of Moser) was also vocal against flippers in a recent interview.

Yes, and speaking for myself "us longtimers" want to reach through the computer screen find out who flipped the ___ and smack the living sh*t out of them! The first time seeing MB&F's 'partners / Tribe only' piece on sale @ EWC / C24 i wanted to scream. (if you heard the words that 'instinctively' came out of my mouth; HINT: can't post those words here without getting banned).

I do wonder how how much of Pierre’s comments were lip service though.....

Well, it's an interesting dynamic to be sure between Pierre and FPJ.

From my very limited experience.... Kinda reminds me of bands where the lead singer plays one archetype, the lead guitarist plays another archetype, gosh only knows what archetype bassist play ([humor] does anyone really care, unless your name is Geddy Lee of course), yet you can usually guarantee the drummer archetype is in being one brilliantly crazy outrageous mischievous...

So Pierre plays his archetype role as 'circus leader', FPJ is the mystery man behind the curtain with passion. Not sure who the bassist and drummer are @ FPJ (would love to party with FPJ's proverbial 'drummer' :) ).

This is not meant to come off as sour grapes, but FPJ seems to be like every other brand. They prioritize certain people. Younger, newer collectors kind of get overlooked because they don’t have history. You can put in face time. Go to events. Strike up “enthusiast” level conversations with managers. Doesn’t matter.

It really can piss a man off, can't it? Oh man, i sooooo hear ya!

Hours in the day versus products out the door. Guess which one FPJ, Moser, Rolex, MB&F, etc has more of right now. Many of us remember how things were just a handful of years ago, and now that the dynamic has changed our decades-long instinct is "But that's now how it's 'always' been" as we knew it. But that's the problem, the dynamic has GREATLY changed (ask any used car salesman today). New cars asking $5k over sticker, WTF?!?!

If this was just five years ago.... and perhaps five years from now the landscape will be different once again as TIME ebbs and flows. Yet yes, the craziness we're experiencing now can reeeeeeally piss off a man off big time. And once again, oh yeah, i hear ya there.

----------

Steven's Side Story

Would you beg for five years at many shows for just one set of headphones? i did! And this was before all of today's craziness.

Heck, i tried procuring a specific set of headphones for five years. FIVE!!! Show after show and it was my friend, who owned the company, kept saying "no, these are not for sale". Next show i asked again, and the next, and the next, and the next after that (must have been ~15 shows over five years i kept asking). i took the time to meet and chat with the artist who created them too! These were a 1-of-1 item(!). It was still a no...

...right up until it was a yes

In the end, and please let's be honest here, they're just a set of headphones.

[JR16]

Great discussion, guys. I really think the issue of “allocation” has no good answer to it. The company cannot possibly make everyone happy . And the concept of what’s most “fair” is subjective depending on the point of view.

One of the things that I think is rough that Pierre emphasizes — “he” will not sell a piece to a collector/enthusiast who is not “vetted” and implied this meant an in-person meeting with someone from the brand. Now that they’ve closed their ADs, they are left with three points of contact in the US- NYC, LA, and Miami… so if you don’t live within reasonable driving distance of these , you are kind of screwed unless you don’t think it’s a big deal to hop on a plane just to go to a boutique for a few hours to chat. Fortunately , I live within driving distance but with my job it is still tough to take a day off to get there. For people w jobs like this and for others who live far away, I’d like to see the brand offer some sort of opportunity to virtually meet someone from FPJ to talk watches , learn, and express interest / ask to be placed on their “wish list”.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[gliazzurri]

Originally Posted by marcusgoh

No worries, definitely not offended. I think it’s perfectly fine to have a discussion; that’s what makes forums interesting. I just disagree on the notion that one is a Journe enthusiast just because they like the CB, and only the CB.

All Journe watches in this year’s production have been spoken for, so you won’t be able to purchase anything immediately, regardless the cheapest or most expensive watch. But I do believe they will consider your interest in the CS. Drop by the boutique, speak to the sales staff; they are nice people.

Thanks for your understanding about where I am coming from. I agree that one is not an enthusiast simply for liking the CB. That is definitely not a definer of a person interested broadly in a brand or the hobby I suspect, but maybe there is more than meets the eye for some liking that one. It is hard though, because it is an entry point price watch so as with all other brands, will attract more people who do not intend to buy many watches or higher complication watches. And again I dislike the idea of stratifying those as authentic or legit who can and can not buy more just to buy less. Thanks for replying and all good dialogue. Just trying to give my experience and another side to the story. We have lots of dialogue from owners here, and it's good to understand what the next generation of owners feel, or prospective owners of the brand--which I would hope FPJ tries to understand and fulfill if able.

[gliazzurri]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

Imho i love the concept! It takes hundreds to thousands of hours to artistically create a mechanical timepiece. Is it too much to ask a customer to take an hour to write why they desire.... ?

Having currency does not mean you automatically should receive something. Not everything in life is for sale to anyone just because you have currency / credit available.

You may have heard this story before, you see there was this guy, he built farm tractors for a living and wanted a fancy car, yet Enzo Ferrari being Enzo.... So he started his own exotic car brand.

Thanks for your comments. Hear me out please and again I will preface with the statement that I am appreciative of your words and hope you hear me speaking openly about the experience as someone who was/is interested in ownership but remains out of the club...on one hand, I completely agree with your take on the idea of the reason to write about this. The romantic side of me appreciates the process of something like this. It is poetic to be able to espouse why one is passionate about a timepiece or whatever it is. I feel you on that one.

But it turns it into yet another contest between owners. It is an informal auction of sorts, yet again, without pricing involved. An auction for attempting to validate which person writes the most persuasive essay. It's a cute touch, but feels a bit middle school to me. I've written enough reports about why I liked something in my early years of school, as well as applications to a formative high school, college and professional school, as well as specialty training beyond that. Now the suggestion is that I should write a book report about why I'm worthy of something that none of us really needs. Seriously, at the end of the day, it's a watch--and we all love them for various reasons but that's why it seems overdone. Again, romantic and poetic but feels a bit juvenile to me--just reacting to how it makes me feel.

We all have good reasons of why we may want to own something like this...a special event, a first piece of a collection, a milestone of life, technical appreciation of something, having 20 FPJ or whatever brand it is already and wanting to complete a collection...why is one reason better or more deserving than the other? I just don't see how that realistically differentiates anything, though is an interesting exercise.

Regarding the point that having currency is not a qualifier of automatically owning something...I certainly agree with you and did not indicate that. It is not, in and of itself, sufficient of course. But the paradox in your statement is that, in fact, having currency and actually having spent a lot of money with a brand, is indeed a qualifier of owning these things, because that is effectively who has been getting the pieces we are talking about.

I will agree that a history of purchase is important with any dealer or sales situation. But it presents a problem if ONLY that group is permitted to qualify to buy, because they have already bought way more than a new customer. There is no easy solution on this I realize, and just airing my thoughts on this as a non-owner still of the brand.

To your other automotive point, which is a marvelous historical fact about the other brand in Emilia-Romagna (a brand which I am very fond of in reality I will add), I don't see why one needs to qualify why I should be able to buy an 812 Superfast or an Aventador. It's just something that we all should be able to have access to if we desire as owners. I don't need to provide an automotive resume to place an order, but yes, may need to wait.

Thanks for the dialogue.

[gliazzurri]

Originally Posted by JR16

Great discussion, guys. I really think the issue of “allocation” has no good answer to it.
“he” will not sell a piece to a collector/enthusiast who is not “vetted” and implied this meant an in-person meeting with someone from the brand.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Totally agree with you on the discourse.

Also agree with the issue of this. I, and suspect many others, have absolutely no typical travel to these areas where these now dwindling facilities are located, given a reduction of ADs with this brand and many others. I don't have the lifestyle and time to travel frequently to any of those locations just to meet and greet a salesperson for something that may never realize. I'd love to, or if it were closer would be more than happy to. But in the era of the modern, with remote everything, technology that permits connecting with people, the facts that phones do in fact still exist and work, that we could not develop genuine relationships over time should still be possible. That word "vetting" just seems again like an interview and is indeed rough.

[marcusgoh]

Originally Posted by gliazzurri

Thanks for your understanding about where I am coming from. I agree that one is not an enthusiast simply for liking the CB. That is definitely not a definer of a person interested broadly in a brand or the hobby I suspect, but maybe there is more than meets the eye for some liking that one. It is hard though, because it is an entry point price watch so as with all other brands, will attract more people who do not intend to buy many watches or higher complication watches. And again I dislike the idea of stratifying those as authentic or legit who can and can not buy more just to buy less. Thanks for replying and all good dialogue. Just trying to give my experience and another side to the story. We have lots of dialogue from owners here, and it's good to understand what the next generation of owners feel, or prospective owners of the brand--which I would hope FPJ tries to understand and fulfill if able.

Maybe instead of approaching the topic from the point of view as an interested party of the CB. Maybe we can try looking at it from the point of view from the brand. And discuss what could be some possible solutions to this problem?

[marcusgoh]

Not a CB, but just as beautiful.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by gliazzurri

Thanks for your comments. Hear me out please and again I will preface with the statement that I am appreciative of your words and hope you hear me speaking openly about the experience as someone who was/is interested in ownership but remains out of the club...

First, am blushing a bit. A most humble thanks. Also thanks to my Muse/wife who when i said this is important and need to answer this within the office setup she understood.

on one hand, I completely agree with your take on the idea of the reason to write about this. The romantic side of me appreciates the process of something like this. It is poetic to be able to espouse why one is passionate about a timepiece or whatever it is. I feel you on that one.

But it turns it into yet another contest between owners.... (big snip)

Well, we're kinda back to the crazy cash-flowing 1980s. When Miami was flourishing, and yeah SoBe was retirement run down apts, yet The Grove and other places were flourishing with funds. Would say more, yet am sure by saying Miami in the 1980s you understand. And yes, the 'connected' got the cars. Regular guys would get their orders bumped, etc.

It may feel like a 'contest', ab-so-friggen-lutely agree, yet everyone is pretty much SOL in one way or another. i soooo might get banned for saying this, yet it su<ks big time!!! So, in a sick sense, you are "part of a club". Darn, just KNEW i shoulda been careful for what i wished for.

This is where, as much as i'd love a ____ timepiece, best put out 'feelers' for ____ and ____ too because out of the three one should 'come in', maybe two if i'm lucky. Yes, just like you. Now, if this was just four years ago, that sentence would sound pretty crazy and make no sense. Am i right or am i right folks?

All three would come in at some point within a year-ish, heck maybe even just six to eight weeks. Remember that time, years ago, when they'd say "it should be here in about six weeks", i do!!! I remember when if they didn't have it in stock, a phone call later and it'd be shipped in from another store to them (or to your home directly). One time, in NYC, 'had to' wait 15 minutes as a runner took the piece from one location to sell to me at their location i was in at the time. Remember those days?

REMEMEBER BACK THEN!!!!!!!!! ARRRRRGHGHGHGH!!!!

On a personal level, the current situation did 'make me' expand my 'horizons' as it has done for many of us true enthusiasts. This is a GREAT thing, in hindsight because at that moment i want what i want when i want it and no one can tell me otherwise. So there pftpftpftpft.

i want an Oompa Loompa now.

Sorry about that, where were we?

If i was looking down from the ISS analyzing things, what is happening seems to also be the best for the health of the OVERALL mechanical timepiece industry on a global scale. Sheeeeeet, even TIMEX is making mechanical watches now (ok, POS-ish pieces, but, ya know, today's pop culture... like saying it is 2022 and "the vinyl record LP is making a comeback".... oh, wait.... it is!!! My buddy who owns a major very high quality pressing plant in Salina can't keep up with orders, of vinyl LPs, in 2022... yes really... and good for him because he's a truly passionate music man and his pressing plant does TOP quality work and yes their LPs do cost more and are well worth it.)

We live in interesting times to be sure.

We all have good reasons of why we may want to own something like this...a special event, a first piece of a collection, a milestone of life, technical appreciation of something, having 20 FPJ or whatever brand it is already and wanting to complete a collection...why is one reason better or more deserving than the other? I just don't see how that realistically differentiates anything, though is an interesting exercise.

Oh man, i have ZERO reply to that. You're making too much sense to me, from my point of view.

From my proverbial open wheel Formula 2000 driver's seat, the sudden 120mph snap sliding sideways coming out of T2 down racetrack was a BIG pucker moment. HUGE!!!

From the flag staff's point of view, they said it was one of the most spectacular slides they'd ever seen at that track. "It was great!!!" they said.

Who is right?

To your other automotive point, which is a marvelous historical fact about the other brand in Emilia-Romagna (a brand which I am very fond of in reality I will add), I don't see why one needs to qualify why I should be able to buy an 812 Superfast or an Aventador. It's just something that we all should be able to have access to if we desire as owners. I don't need to provide an automotive resume to place an order, but yes, may need to wait.

In an ideal world, everything from exceeding a universally peaceful society's needs and honest leadership, to mathematically sound financial institutions... things would work as i feel they should. Ya know, it'd all make sense, logically, yet with heart and soul. Resources would be plentiful and distributed to everyone who desired.

And then there's reality.

Am also reminded of the beginning of the movie The Big Short. Oh yeah.... the Mark Twain quote:

Thanks for the dialogue.

A most humble thanks for allowing me the opportunity to share my feelings.

And thanks to my Muse/wife for understanding and being soooo cool about me being in my office on a lovely sunny 74F Sunday afternoon. BEST MUSE EVER!!!

[Bearxj86]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with going grey. In fact, you walk into the Journe boutique and you want a piece and you show them the grey piece that you acquired - I can tell you it only helps since they can tell you are not a flipper and you appreciate the piece enough to pay over retail or not want to wait.

Bottom line, the boutiques are great places to hang out and see other collectors, despite living about 1.5 hours away, I try to make it out there as much as I can.

I do fully appreciate the purist perspective and wanting to get things at MSRP and to be rewarded for your enthuisiam - my advice is to be flexible - things are not the same and will not likely be the same ever again. There are more than 900 new enthusiastic collectors and Journe still needs to take care of their loyal customers - some of which have been there since 2000 when Journes traded at 30-40% MSRP.

[gliazzurri]

Originally Posted by marcusgoh

Maybe instead of approaching the topic from the point of view as an interested party of the CB. Maybe we can try looking at it from the point of view from the brand. And discuss what could be some possible solutions to this problem?

Yes indeed...this is exactly correct. This is not a CB issue. Surely isn't for me a CB issue, though it is a popular piece that seems to always come up. That's a proper discussion of how to think of it, since it's not as simple as one timepiece.

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by gliazzurri

Thanks for your comments. Hear me out please and again I will preface with the statement that I am appreciative of your words and hope you hear me speaking openly about the experience as someone who was/is interested in ownership but remains out of the club...on one hand, I completely agree with your take on the idea of the reason to write about this. The romantic side of me appreciates the process of something like this. It is poetic to be able to espouse why one is passionate about a timepiece or whatever it is. I feel you on that one.

But it turns it into yet another contest between owners. It is an informal auction of sorts, yet again, without pricing involved. An auction for attempting to validate which person writes the most persuasive essay. It's a cute touch, but feels a bit middle school to me. I've written enough reports about why I liked something in my early years of school, as well as applications to a formative high school, college and professional school, as well as specialty training beyond that. Now the suggestion is that I should write a book report about why I'm worthy of something that none of us really needs. Seriously, at the end of the day, it's a watch--and we all love them for various reasons but that's why it seems overdone. Again, romantic and poetic but feels a bit juvenile to me--just reacting to how it makes me feel.

We all have good reasons of why we may want to own something like this...a special event, a first piece of a collection, a milestone of life, technical appreciation of something, having 20 FPJ or whatever brand it is already and wanting to complete a collection...why is one reason better or more deserving than the other? I just don't see how that realistically differentiates anything, though is an interesting exercise.

Regarding the point that having currency is not a qualifier of automatically owning something...I certainly agree with you and did not indicate that. It is not, in and of itself, sufficient of course. But the paradox in your statement is that, in fact, having currency and actually having spent a lot of money with a brand, is indeed a qualifier of owning these things, because that is effectively who has been getting the pieces we are talking about.

I will agree that a history of purchase is important with any dealer or sales situation. But it presents a problem if ONLY that group is permitted to qualify to buy, because they have already bought way more than a new customer. There is no easy solution on this I realize, and just airing my thoughts on this as a non-owner still of the brand.

To your other automotive point, which is a marvelous historical fact about the other brand in Emilia-Romagna (a brand which I am very fond of in reality I will add), I don't see why one needs to qualify why I should be able to buy an 812 Superfast or an Aventador. It's just something that we all should be able to have access to if we desire as owners. I don't need to provide an automotive resume to place an order, but yes, may need to wait.

Thanks for the dialogue.

Some interesting points there, but in essence, it comes down to the fact that there is less of something than there are folks who want it. That creates a need for allocation. Human has developed one system for the allocation of rare goods in high demand scenarios: the auction. And for higher volumes, the free market. In both these instances, the person that’s willing to commit the most to get something is assured to get it. And the market for FPJs is no different, if you want it enough to pay the grey market price, you can get any FPJ watch instantly. I know that, as I just did (has yet to get here though).

Anyway, if anything FPJ should be lauded for seeking a different way to allocate their watches than purely the capitalistic approach in play on the grey market.

If you want to get your FPJ only by virtue of how much money you can commit, log on to watchbox or EWC.

But if you want a different way, you have the option to put some nice lines of text on an application.

Isn’t that great?

I mean try doing that at a Rolex AD, or at Patek: those brands have a pure tit for tat approach where they’ll only give you a watch if you kick back enough of the grey market premium to them by buying other less desirable stuff.

FPJ doesn’t do that (and how could they, they don’t have any less desirable stuff, but they could raise prices), and that in my eyes is really nice.

[gliazzurri]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

First, am blushing a bit. A most humble thanks. Also thanks to my Muse/wife who when i said this is important and need to answer this within the office setup she understood.



Well, we're kinda back to the crazy cash-flowing 1980s. When Miami was flourishing, and yeah SoBe was retirement run down apts, yet The Grove and other places were flourishing with funds. Would say more, yet am sure by saying Miami in the 1980s you understand. And yes, the 'connected' got the cars. Regular guys would get their orders bumped, etc.

It may feel like a 'contest', ab-so-friggen-lutely agree, yet everyone is pretty much SOL in one way or another. i soooo might get banned for saying this, yet it su<ks big time!!! So, in a sick sense, you are "part of a club". Darn, just KNEW i shoulda been careful for what i wished for.

This is where, as much as i'd love a ____ timepiece, best put out 'feelers' for ____ and ____ too because out of the three one should 'come in', maybe two if i'm lucky. Yes, just like you. Now, if this was just four years ago, that sentence would sound pretty crazy and make no sense. Am i right or am i right folks?

All three would come in at some point within a year-ish, heck maybe even just six to eight weeks. Remember that time, years ago, when they'd say "it should be here in about six weeks", i do!!! I remember when if they didn't have it in stock, a phone call later and it'd be shipped in from another store to them (or to your home directly). One time, in NYC, 'had to' wait 15 minutes as a runner took the piece from one location to sell to me at their location i was in at the time. Remember those days?

REMEMEBER BACK THEN!!!!!!!!! ARRRRRGHGHGHGH!!!!

On a personal level, the current situation did 'make me' expand my 'horizons' as it has done for many of us true enthusiasts. This is a GREAT thing, in hindsight because at that moment i want what i want when i want it and no one can tell me otherwise. So there pftpftpftpft.

i want an Oompa Loompa now.

Sorry about that, where were we?

If i was looking down from the ISS analyzing things, what is happening seems to also be the best for the health of the OVERALL mechanical timepiece industry on a global scale. Sheeeeeet, even TIMEX is making mechanical watches now (ok, POS-ish pieces, but, ya know, today's pop culture... like saying it is 2022 and "the vinyl record LP is making a comeback".... oh, wait.... it is!!! My buddy who owns a major very high quality pressing plant in Salina can't keep up with orders, of vinyl LPs, in 2022... yes really... and good for him because he's a truly passionate music man and his pressing plant does TOP quality work and yes their LPs do cost more and are well worth it.)

We live in interesting times to be sure.




Oh man, i have ZERO reply to that. You're making too much sense to me, from my point of view.

From my proverbial open wheel Formula 2000 driver's seat, the sudden 120mph snap sliding sideways coming out of T2 down racetrack was a BIG pucker moment. HUGE!!!

From the flag staff's point of view, they said it was one of the most spectacular slides they'd ever seen at that track. "It was great!!!" they said.

Who is right?




In an ideal world, everything from exceeding a universally peaceful society's needs and honest leadership, to mathematically sound financial institutions... things would work as i feel they should. Ya know, it'd all make sense, logically, yet with heart and soul. Resources would be plentiful and distributed to everyone who desired.

And then there's reality.

Am also reminded of the beginning of the movie The Big Short. Oh yeah.... the Mark Twain quote:






A most humble thanks for allowing me the opportunity to share my feelings.

And thanks to my Muse/wife for understanding and being soooo cool about me being in my office on a lovely sunny 74F Sunday afternoon. BEST MUSE EVER!!!

Great responses....and yes...these are essential conversations...so how grand to divert other pressing family needs to reply!! I'm glad I'm not getting proverbially thrown out of the thread just because of bringing up these things. It's just a legitimate frustration for just me, at least that I can speak for, and perhaps many others. I think we all have a lot of emotion in our interests here, and by that I don't mean the frustration...rather the PASSION for what we love which is key.

[Nav01L]

Originally Posted by bearxj86

There is absolutely nothing wrong with going grey. In fact, you walk into the Journe boutique and you want a piece and you show them the grey piece that you acquired - I can tell you it only helps since they can tell you are not a flipper and you appreciate the piece enough to pay over retail or not want to wait.

Bottom line, the boutiques are great places to hang out and see other collectors, despite living about 1.5 hours away, I try to make it out there as much as I can.

I do fully appreciate the purist perspective and wanting to get things at MSRP and to be rewarded for your enthuisiam - my advice is to be flexible - things are not the same and will not likely be the same ever again. There are more than 900 new enthusiastic collectors and Journe still needs to take care of their loyal customers - some of which have been there since 2000 when Journes traded at 30-40% MSRP.

Excellent post, I fully do concur

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by gliazzurri

I think we all have a lot of emotion in our interests here, and by that I don't mean the frustration...rather the PASSION for what we love which is key.

Without a doubt you ARE a member of the club

[rockdrock]

First, a big thank you to the organizers for that great call with Pierre. He is honest (brutally honest sometimes), insightful, and just a great brand ambassador. Excellent speaker.

For Speedy, I get you. I think you are right. Many of the brands are doing what you have mentioned and while brands keep mentioning passion of horology, the fact of the matter is that deep pockets move allocations. We know this. It is part of life. Where I especially feel your frustration is that while many of us have been on waiting list for 3-5 years ago, the list have greatly shifted and have evolved. It has happened to me where I have been dropped as more whales come into the game. Actually, it is a lot of younger, crypto savvy new clients and also some really old collectors with outrageous collections that resemble stamp collecting. I only mention this to say, I know, it is happening to all us in all brands.

Your two choices are gorgeous but I can tell you that the new redesign Octa Reserve is stunning. Also, speaking of evolution of FPJ design, check the Octa Sport. So freaking amazing. Lastly, a “regular” Souverain is nothing to ignore. If there is one watch I would say is the best representation of FP is this model. Simply pointing that there are some terrific models coming from the mind of FPJ.

Speedy, I feel for you and perhaps there is a great FPJ model just waiting for you. Good luck.

[Bearxj86]

One last thing. Having deep pockets and having a genuine enthusiam and desire for watches are not mutually exclusive. In this world there are people with both.

At the risk of being overly blunt - there is almost a virtual certainty there are over 900 people in this world with deeper pockets AND have the same level of enthusiam as Speedy and I and most of the people in this thread and are first time Journe buyers that also want the CB. It thus becomes a competition as well as there is a measure of luck.

The playbook is simple:
1) Go to Journe boutique
2) Show them who you are (that you have a real job and are not a dealer)
3) Show them your passion and watch collection
4) OPTIONAL but helps - BUY SOMETHING Journe, from them or someone else
5) OPTIONAL but helps - VISIT, HANG OUT, GO TO EVENTS

or:

1) Go grey, or you can mix going grey with the above. I find going grey locks in the market price for me so if the watch does go up in value, and I finally get my allocation, I can always sell the grey piece.

Originally Posted by rockdrock

First, a big thank you to the organizers for that great call with Pierre. He is honest (brutally honest sometimes), insightful, and just a great brand ambassador. Excellent speaker.

For Speedy, I get you. I think you are right. Many of the brands are doing what you have mentioned and while brands keep mentioning passion of horology, the fact of the matter is that deep pockets move allocations. We know this. It is part of life. Where I especially feel your frustration is that while many of us have been on waiting list for 3-5 years ago, the list have greatly shifted and have evolved. It has happened to me where I have been dropped as more whales come into the game. Actually, it is a lot of younger, crypto savvy new clients and also some really old collectors with outrageous collections that resemble stamp collecting. I only mention this to say, I know, it is happening to all us in all brands.

Your two choices are gorgeous but I can tell you that the new redesign Octa Reserve is stunning. Also, speaking of evolution of FPJ design, check the Octa Sport. So freaking amazing. Lastly, a “regular” Souverain is nothing to ignore. If there is one watch I would say is the best representation of FP is this model. Simply pointing that there are some terrific models coming from the mind of FPJ.

Speedy, I feel for you and perhaps there is a great FPJ model just waiting for you. Good luck.

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by bearxj86

One last thing. Having deep pockets and having a genuine enthusiam and desire for watches are not mutually exclusive. In this world there are people with both.

At the risk of being overly blunt - there is almost a virtual certainty there are over 900 people in this world with deeper pockets AND have the same level of enthusiam as Speedy and I and most of the people in this thread and are first time Journe buyers that also want the CB. It thus becomes a competition as well as there is a measure of luck.

The playbook is simple:
1) Go to Journe boutique
2) Show them who you are (that you have a real job and are not a dealer)
3) Show them your passion and watch collection
4) OPTIONAL but helps - BUY SOMETHING Journe, from them or someone else
5) OPTIONAL but helps - VISIT, HANG OUT, GO TO EVENTS

or:

1) Go grey, or you can mix going grey with the above. I find going grey locks in the market price for me so if the watch does go up in value, and I finally get my allocation, I can always sell the grey piece.

I don't think people are confused about the playbook; we've all had to play this game one way or another over the past couple of years. Some like playing it. Some play begrudgingly. Some leave the table. It is what it is. Just as an FYI, I've completed numbers 1, 2, 3 and 5 on your list....still told no chance after 3.5 years of waiting patiently. It appears step 4 is not optional, might want to adjust that playbook.

My only (and I stress only) gripe is this facade that the FPJ brand is somehow different in their practices. They are not. That's all I'm saying. What's the phrase..."don't pee on my shoes and tell me it's raining".