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View Poll Results: What brand do you prefer more?
A Lange & Söhne 25 40.98%
Patek Philippe 36 59.02%
Voters: 61. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 16 May 2016, 08:50 PM   #91
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ALS is more like Pagani.

What Pagani did with the Zonda is what ALS did with the Datograph.
Rumour has it that the Big Date was actually JLC and that Richmont allocated it to ALS as part of the rebranding....anyway I seen a lot more ALS than I have a Pagani

All I am saying when you are choosing a perpetual Datograph versus PP 5270 you have to wonder whether to stay with tried and proven or take a leap of faith with the new ALS. Both great watches...one is the Rolls Royce...
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Old 16 May 2016, 11:38 PM   #92
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Rumour has it that the Big Date was actually JLC and that Richmont allocated it to ALS as part of the rebranding....anyway I seen a lot more ALS than I have a Pagani

All I am saying when you are choosing a perpetual Datograph versus PP 5270 you have to wonder whether to stay with tried and proven or take a leap of faith with the new ALS. Both great watches...one is the Rolls Royce...
If you said 5970 than I'd agree with you. 5270 doesn't do it for me.
I appreciate both brands, two favorites, they both have their strengths.
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Old 17 May 2016, 12:15 AM   #93
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This thread has new life for sure. It's a common debate. Both make stunning watches and can both exist in one's collection. I was not aware of the resale of Lange until last summer. What an expensive lesson and I bought new 30% off.
You sold your Lange? But you are lucky enough to have gotten 30% off, Wempe in Paris does not make any discount on Lange, even on the dato PC in platinum, which goes for more then 130k, their explanation is that since they are rare they DON'T LOOSE ANY VALUE, I think if I would believe them and buy the watch for retail, then want to sell it later on and realize that for them holding value really means loosing anywhere between 34 and 70 thousand euros, yes 70k http://www.chrono24.com/en/alangesoe...-id4187804.htm
I would really go crazy and either have an attack or have a little chat with the manager and sales person who sold me the watch, it's probably legal but for me it is a scam and should be a criminal offense, I mean by lying just to sell a watch you know the guy is going to loose instantly the moment he walks out the door a huge sum of money. Lange is a great brand, love the Datograph line, and can be a great value, but on the grey market, but I feel for the poor guys who bought retail and then sold them

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Rumour has it that the Big Date was actually JLC and that Richmont allocated it to ALS as part of the rebranding....anyway I seen a lot more ALS than I have a Pagani
.
Did the Big Date appear first in Lange or in VC Overseas? I will never understand why they made the new VCO without it and made it like ROC, that was the best feature of the watch, did they think the if they did the same date format as AP they would have the same sales as them? For me it basically ruined the watch, what a stupid thing to do IMO...
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Old 17 May 2016, 12:23 AM   #94
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I had an interesting conversation with one of my ADs that sell both Patek and ALS. For the AD, they sell Patek watches with much more ease than ALS, meaning an ALS can sit around for several months. He believes the quality of the watches made are quite comparable and both excellent. He mentioned the case design of ALS watches is very similar across their watches without much variation. The AD and I didn't discuss pricing, but as others have mentioned it is common for ALS watch to take a large hit on price after it leaves the AD, which makes it hard for watch enthusiasts to buy a Lange watch from an AD.
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Old 17 May 2016, 12:26 AM   #95
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I had an interesting conversation with one of my ADs that sell both Patek and ALS. For the AD, they sell Patek watches with much more ease than ALS, meaning an ALS can sit around for several months. He believes the quality of the watches made are quite comparable and both excellent. He mentioned the case design of ALS watches is very similar across their watches without much variation. The AD and I didn't discuss pricing, but as others have mentioned it is common for ALS watch to take a large hit on price after it leaves the AD, which makes it hard for watch enthusiasts to buy a Lange watch from an AD.
Exactly!!
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Old 17 May 2016, 12:41 AM   #96
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I had an interesting conversation with one of my ADs that sell both Patek and ALS. For the AD, they sell Patek watches with much more ease than ALS, meaning an ALS can sit around for several months. He believes the quality of the watches made are quite comparable and both excellent. He mentioned the case design of ALS watches is very similar across their watches without much variation. The AD and I didn't discuss pricing, but as others have mentioned it is common for ALS watch to take a large hit on price after it leaves the AD, which makes it hard for watch enthusiasts to buy a Lange watch from an AD.
Sounds like lange needs to open a museum and hit the auctions
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Old 17 May 2016, 12:43 AM   #97
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Sounds like lange needs to open a museum and hit the auctions
I am watching the Christies Auction right now in Geneva....not 1 ALS lot....let me guess...they produce too few
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Old 17 May 2016, 12:45 AM   #98
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Sounds like lange needs to open a museum and hit the auctions
LOL Tom, what a great idea, I wonder why no watch company never had such a brilliant idea
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Old 17 May 2016, 02:01 AM   #99
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I had an interesting conversation with one of my ADs that sell both Patek and ALS. For the AD, they sell Patek watches with much more ease than ALS, meaning an ALS can sit around for several months. He believes the quality of the watches made are quite comparable and both excellent. He mentioned the case design of ALS watches is very similar across their watches without much variation. The AD and I didn't discuss pricing, but as others have mentioned it is common for ALS watch to take a large hit on price after it leaves the AD, which makes it hard for watch enthusiasts to buy a Lange watch from an AD.
That's pretty straightforward. No brand has as much cachet and heritage as Patek, even whiles Lange is generally highly regarded by serious collectors, more so than Vacheron and AP.

But I'll tell you that I know quite a few serious collectors of Pateks, including some what we might call 'mega' collectors, and many of them have shied away from Patek's contemporary models, excluding the nautilus. The newer movement chronos - 5170, 5270, and 5204 have not been widely accepted by collectors (mainly because of aesthetic reasons). Patek has repeatedly tried to alter the designs but the architecture of the movements have hamstrung them.

Patek obviously has much more variance in design and style than Lange. Lange is almost like Panerai in a way - they have a very distinct and uniform design aesthetic across their lines. Teutonic, clean, and refined. That has it's charm, and the quality of both the movements and dials are extraordinary. But it also has inherent limitations in appeal. Though from speaking to Lange, they don't want to brach out into Pateks arena and are quite happy with their unique place in the world of horology. You won't find an integrated bracelet sports-watch from Lange anytime soon!
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Old 17 May 2016, 02:14 AM   #100
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...

But I'll tell you that I know quite a few serious collectors of Pateks, including some what we might call 'mega' collectors, and many of them have shied away from Patek's contemporary models, excluding the nautilus. The newer movement chronos - 5170, 5270, and 5204 have not been widely accepted by collectors (mainly because of aesthetic reasons). Patek has repeatedly tried to alter the designs but the architecture of the movements have hamstrung them...
Good points,
Agree with the idea that the newer movements are slow to be accepted but I expect they will find their way.

The subdials being off center has presented some challenges, more so for the PC/chrono than the chrono only.

The PC chrono (5270) have evolved much since the original release, the new models look more balanced than the originals

If we look back to the 5070, the movement presented a huge problem when being used in a 42mm case, the designers at Patek masterfully resolved that issue and created one of the most loved watches in pateks history.

Collectors will come around, I suspect one of the biggest concerns is production numbers... That is what can really put someone off buying the big items for the long haul.
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Old 17 May 2016, 03:19 AM   #101
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I'm definately a sports watch guy and the 5711 Nautilus has been my grail for a few years now. I've wristdrived a few Pateks and was duly impreseed, but I was blown away when I got to try this baby on...


I'm still thinking the Nautilus (or the new blue VCO) is the watch I'll buy under $30K, but if I had $65-$70 I'd pick up a Datograph up/dn from a trusted seller in a heart beat.

Also, if I ever decide to purchase a true dress watch this would most likely be my choice...



I guess that means I'd choose AlS over PP given the choice, but not at retail pricing.
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Old 17 May 2016, 03:41 AM   #102
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Good points,
Agree with the idea that the newer movements are slow to be accepted but I expect they will find their way.

The subdials being off center has presented some challenges, more so for the PC/chrono than the chrono only.

The PC chrono (5270) have evolved much since the original release, the new models look more balanced than the originals

If we look back to the 5070, the movement presented a huge problem when being used in a 42mm case, the designers at Patek masterfully resolved that issue and created one of the most loved watches in pateks history.

Collectors will come around, I suspect one of the biggest concerns is production numbers... That is what can really put someone off buying the big items for the long haul.
Good point about production numbers. Patek was previously limited by the availability of Lemania ebauches and now has no problem whatsoever in producing movements.

I also agree that the placement of the sub dials is less egregious on the chrono -only models, especially the newer 5170s (which are quite beautiful and I'm sorely tempted to jump on). Though I think the 5270 is a mess. And it bothers me that Patek had to lose the tachymeter and pulsometer on a manual chrono just to get the spacing of the sub dials to be better aligned. Whiles I'm not a huge fan of the 5070 as it is, I think the 5970 is downright perfect.

Be that as it may, I don't see serious collectors gravitating towards the newer models, including the 5905, 5327, 5960 steel, etc... any time soon. Vintage models are just too hot now.

Minute repeaters and split second chronos have their own specific markets and move according to their own internal logic. I have a friend who owns quite a few very valuable vintage Pateks and a 5970 and 5004. The only recent models he was interested in was the 5950 steel and new 5930. He went for the 5930. (the case on that watch is out of this world beautiful). But he would not look seriously at the 5270 at all. And I heard some rumblings about the designers involved in the new models too. But for 'normal' buyers, the new models are attractive, of course. What that means in terms of long-term retention of value is anybodys guess.
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Old 17 May 2016, 07:10 AM   #103
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Patek will always be Patek, they are from Switzerland and have been independent and around for 175 years!!... Lange, sorry folks is not there yet.
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Old 17 May 2016, 07:18 AM   #104
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That's pretty straightforward. No brand has as much cachet and heritage as Patek, even whiles Lange is generally highly regarded by serious collectors, more so than Vacheron and AP.

But I'll tell you that I know quite a few serious collectors of Pateks, including some what we might call 'mega' collectors, and many of them have shied away from Patek's contemporary models, excluding the nautilus. The newer movement chronos - 5170, 5270, and 5204 have not been widely accepted by collectors (mainly because of aesthetic reasons). Patek has repeatedly tried to alter the designs but the architecture of the movements have hamstrung them.

Patek obviously has much more variance in design and style than Lange. Lange is almost like Panerai in a way - they have a very distinct and uniform design aesthetic across their lines. Teutonic, clean, and refined. That has it's charm, and the quality of both the movements and dials are extraordinary. But it also has inherent limitations in appeal. Though from speaking to Lange, they don't want to brach out into Pateks arena and are quite happy with their unique place in the world of horology. You won't find an integrated bracelet sports-watch from Lange anytime soon!
I beg to differ as it relates to the 5204 and 5170. Those watches are beautiful still and the BEST IN THE WORLD at what they do. Buy a Lange and see by how much THEY depreciate...I would venture a guess a bit MORE THAN Patek still no matter the reference. IMO, besides price depreciation, one of my issues with Lange is that all of their watches for the most part LOOK THE SAME!!!
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Old 17 May 2016, 07:18 AM   #105
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Collectors will come around, I suspect one of the biggest concerns is production numbers... That is what can really put someone off buying the big items for the long haul.
A few collectors, including myself, have been shying away from Patek so you are correct. One very large collector I know with very nice rare pieces is discreetly eliminating virtually all of his. Over the past few years it seems more and more have been less than enthused with the company's direction. Of course wealthy sheiks and the like will buy whatever allocation of the most limited pieces, and that seems to be more the goal than properly servicing their normal production products in a timely manner. Wish you guys all the best, and hopefully Patek reduces production to allocate more resources in providing proper customer service and care.
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Old 17 May 2016, 07:20 AM   #106
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Good point about production numbers. Patek was previously limited by the availability of Lemania ebauches and now has no problem whatsoever in producing movements.

I also agree that the placement of the sub dials is less egregious on the chrono -only models, especially the newer 5170s (which are quite beautiful and I'm sorely tempted to jump on). Though I think the 5270 is a mess. And it bothers me that Patek had to lose the tachymeter and pulsometer on a manual chrono just to get the spacing of the sub dials to be better aligned. Whiles I'm not a huge fan of the 5070 as it is, I think the 5970 is downright perfect.

Be that as it may, I don't see serious collectors gravitating towards the newer models, including the 5905, 5327, 5960 steel, etc... any time soon. Vintage models are just too hot now.

Minute repeaters and split second chronos have their own specific markets and move according to their own internal logic. I have a friend who owns quite a few very valuable vintage Pateks and a 5970 and 5004. The only recent models he was interested in was the 5950 steel and new 5930. He went for the 5930. (the case on that watch is out of this world beautiful). But he would not look seriously at the 5270 at all. And I heard some rumblings about the designers involved in the new models too. But for 'normal' buyers, the new models are attractive, of course. What that means in terms of long-term retention of value is anybodys guess.
Great points and follow up.

Completely agree on the 5950, spectacular watch.

5930 is one of my favorite of the current line up, though I'm suspect of what its future will hold.

All I will add is the 5370 is quite a special piece as well.

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Old 17 May 2016, 08:43 AM   #107
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I'm definately a sports watch guy and the 5711 Nautilus has been my grail for a few years now. I've wristdrived a few Pateks and was duly impreseed, but I was blown away when I got to try this baby on...
Yeah well you didn't try the worse Lange around now did you it is clearly the most stunning, followed by the "normal" datograph perpetual, sure it doesn't have the tourbillon but still quite stunning, I find these 2 amazing but there is one thing, they could have done the moon phase a little bigger, the mini moon phase is the odd thing about that watch, but again very stunning pieces. Just out of curiosity how much is the dato PC with tourbillon? Around 250k or more?
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Old 17 May 2016, 12:02 PM   #108
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Done with Patek

Selling mine due to poor service, poor finishing, and poor attitude. Happily moving the sale proceeds to AP and Lange. A company can rest on its laurels for only so long.
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Old 17 May 2016, 12:25 PM   #109
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Great points and follow up.

Completely agree on the 5950, spectacular watch.

5930 is one of my favorite of the current line up, though I'm suspect of what its future will hold.

All I will add is the 5370 is quite a special piece as well.

Ah, I meant the 5370! He chose that one over the 5950. Though the 5930 also is real nice.
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Old 17 May 2016, 12:29 PM   #110
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I beg to differ as it relates to the 5204 and 5170. Those watches are beautiful still and the BEST IN THE WORLD at what they do. Buy a Lange and see by how much THEY depreciate...I would venture a guess a bit MORE THAN Patek still no matter the reference. IMO, besides price depreciation, one of my issues with Lange is that all of their watches for the most part LOOK THE SAME!!!
Forget about depreciation, we already mentioned the substantial difference there.
I also mentioned Lange's unique aesthetic and Patek's versatility in design. I own 5 Pateks, so don't get me wrong I am not bashing the brand nor a Lange fanboy. But I have seen collectors not move forward on the newer models and have heard plenty about it from others too.
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Old 17 May 2016, 12:30 PM   #111
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Selling mine due to poor service, poor finishing, and poor attitude. Happily moving the sale proceeds to AP and Lange. A company can rest on its laurels for only so long.
AP and Lange will be happy to assist you--two good choices.
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Old 17 May 2016, 01:43 PM   #112
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Selling mine due to poor service, poor finishing, and poor attitude. Happily moving the sale proceeds to AP and Lange. A company can rest on its laurels for only so long.
Talk about poor watches. I have a couple of APs I'd love to get rid of. While I own AP and Patek- my desire to complete the holy trinity is a Vacheron Traditioanlle Chrinograph.

Sorry- Lange is nice but nowhere near Patek.
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Old 17 May 2016, 02:06 PM   #113
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Talk about poor watches. I have a couple of APs I'd love to get rid of. While I own AP and Patek- my desire to complete the holy trinity is a Vacheron Traditioanlle Chrinograph.

Sorry- Lange is nice but nowhere near Patek.
As soon as I can get rid off my Pateks I'm getting a Datograph and an AP ROO Diver. That will make 3 Langes a brace of AP's. Seems like the best way to go for me. Let me know if you want to get rid of your crappy AP's and maybe you would like my Pateks.
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Old 17 May 2016, 02:08 PM   #114
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Safari and bumblebee here. Sold my Grand Prix a little while ago. Which Pateks u have? Feel free to pm me.


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Old 17 May 2016, 02:22 PM   #115
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As soon as I can get rid off my Pateks I'm getting a Datograph and an AP ROO Diver. That will make 3 Langes a brace of AP's. Seems like the best way to go for me. Let me know if you want to get rid of your crappy AP's and maybe you would like my Pateks.
PM me with what you have on the Pateks...i am always sniffing for a bargain
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Old 17 May 2016, 07:13 PM   #116
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A few collectors, including myself, have been shying away from Patek so you are correct. One very large collector I know with very nice rare pieces is discreetly eliminating virtually all of his. Over the past few years it seems more and more have been less than enthused with the company's direction. Of course wealthy sheiks and the like will buy whatever allocation of the most limited pieces, and that seems to be more the goal than properly servicing their normal production products in a timely manner. Wish you guys all the best, and hopefully Patek reduces production to allocate more resources in providing proper customer service and care.
I have heard some collectors are moving away from Patek, of course pieces like the 5950 should perform as traditionally expected however as in everything it seems the MSRP is so inflated as to negate much of the potential from the customers appreciation.

Service improvements are overdue but will the new facility also lead to even higher production numbers?

Perhaps the simplest answer is to buy what we want to wear?

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Old 17 May 2016, 07:23 PM   #117
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I have heard some collectors are moving away from Patek, of course pieces like the 5950 should perform as traditionally expected however as in everything it seems the MSRP is so inflated as to negate much of the potential from the customers appreciation.

Service improvements are overdue but will the new facility also lead to even higher production numbers?

Perhaps the simplest answer is to buy what we want to wear?

Yup!
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Old 17 May 2016, 09:37 PM   #118
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Sorry- Lange is nice but nowhere near Patek.
Never apologise for having a personal and subjective opinion.
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Old 17 May 2016, 10:32 PM   #119
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Service improvements are overdue but will the new facility also lead to even higher production numbers?


Ding, ding--we have a winner. It's not going to pay for itself.

When I read about the $500m building, that leads to two things: price increase and/or higher production (or both).
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Old 17 May 2016, 10:42 PM   #120
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Sorry- Lange is nice but nowhere near Patek.
Outside of the 175 year babble, love to hear your thoughts.

Also, in reference to AP, why do you consider them "poor watches"?

These pics tell me a pretty compelling case for ALS:



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