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View Poll Results: What brand do you prefer more?
A Lange & Söhne 25 40.98%
Patek Philippe 36 59.02%
Voters: 61. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 17 May 2016, 11:05 PM   #121
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It's not a charity that's for sure but as an independant business it probably has less pressure to grow versus a public company like Richmont that has public shareholders to look after. I think Stern himself said that they would grow but in a controlled manner...however I think we are niave if we think they will stay at 55000 units p.a. for ever!! The magic %age is 20% of all production is steel watches...10 000 quartz etc etc. The raison detre for the new facility is to primarily house all manufacture in one place where currently its spread out a bit...but there is always ancillary benefits for efficiencies....when I asked about the market last week (and you =can believe this is them selling their own book or not) they advised they are still selling all production with wait lists for many models. Yes China has dropped of but USA and UK has shown growth of over 15% in each market!! They did mention the rumour that Vacheron was selling 80% of production and was incentivising their AD's to move more stock - who knows if true or not!
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Old 17 May 2016, 11:16 PM   #122
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Outside of the 175 year babble, love to hear your thoughts.

Also, in reference to AP, why do you consider them "poor watches"?

These pics tell me a pretty compelling case for ALS:
The Lange manual are in some cases stunning but to be correct it should be put in comparison with a Patek manual movement, here is the 5370 movement, I prefer the Lange but some think it has too many colors, and prefer the Patek ones.

patek-5370-movement-close-up.jpg
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Old 17 May 2016, 11:33 PM   #123
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The Lange manual are in some cases stunning but to be correct it should be put in comparison with a Patek manual movement, here is the 5370 movement, I prefer the Lange but some think it has too many colors, and prefer the Patek ones.

Attachment 742301
I'm aware of the difference Lapence. I was merely stating I prefer ALS movement--could careless about manual or automatic.
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Old 17 May 2016, 11:54 PM   #124
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I think Lange make the second best watches in the world - if they come second it's because their movements and dials can be a little "overstyled."
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Old 18 May 2016, 12:09 AM   #125
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On a separate note I do NOT believe that guff that Mr Stern is espousing about all models being wait listed. I have a real concern about overproduction of ALL PP models and have got a feeling that Patek is currently heading the way of AP - a "one-watch" company - namely the Nautilus. (anyone own an AP which isn't an RO or an ROO?)

From experience, there is NO (non-Nautilus) PP which is "hard to get" other than the 5131.
The grand complications which were once by application can be had by anyone.
Their once-iconic PCC now sits in shop windows for months.
And their are heavy discounts to be enjoyed by customers prepared to discreetly ask an AD to do deals.

Yes, ALS doesn't compare but Thierry is making a mess of things.
And this comes from someone is rather heavily invested in the brand himself. Beyond around $30,000 I wouldn't consider a watch from any other brand no matter what it's respective merits...

PP beats ALS but they are not what they were. CUT PRODUCTION. MAKE THEM EXCLUSIVE AGAIN AND PROTECT YOUR COLLECTORS.

ARE YOU LISTENING MR STERN?
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Old 18 May 2016, 12:30 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by murcielago_boy View Post
On a separate note I do NOT believe that guff that Mr Stern is espousing about all models being wait listed. I have a real concern about overproduction of ALL PP models and have got a feeling that Patek is currently heading the way of AP - a "one-watch" company - namely the Nautilus. (anyone own an AP which isn't an RO or an ROO?)

From experience, there is NO (non-Nautilus) PP which is "hard to get" other than the 5131.
The grand complications which were once by application can be had by anyone.
Their once-iconic PCC now sits in shop windows for months.
And their are heavy discounts to be enjoyed by customers prepared to discreetly ask an AD to do deals.

Yes, ALS doesn't compare but Thierry is making a mess of things.
And this comes from someone is rather heavily invested in the brand himself. Beyond around $30,000 I wouldn't consider a watch from any other brand no matter what it's respective merits...

PP beats ALS but they are not what they were. CUT PRODUCTION. MAKE THEM EXCLUSIVE AGAIN AND PROTECT YOUR COLLECTORS.

ARE YOU LISTENING MR STERN?

Reading this, it certainly doesn't seems to be a good time to collect Pateks. I was eyeing the new 5170R.

Lange certainly made beautiful watches and their movement finishing is top notch. I like Lange watches but not like them enough yet to buy them. The closest I got was the Datograph but the lack of roman indices bothers me. The uniformity of case design across all product lines of Lange also kind of bugs me.

So I guess I better stick to APs.
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Old 18 May 2016, 12:30 AM   #127
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ARE YOU LISTENING MR STERN?
Sadly, the answer is probably no.

You bring up some excellent points/comments.
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Old 18 May 2016, 12:45 AM   #128
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I'm aware of the difference Lapence. I was merely stating I prefer ALS movement--could careless about manual or automatic.
I understand, but for the other members a better comparison is between 2 manual movements, not auto and manual, and I also prefer Lange movements, if I was to get a watch on leather strap I would probably get a datograph, some here will yell but for me Lange if bought at a good price, namely in mint, is an excellent value, not taking into account all the collecting part, just that for the price you pay you have a better deal than with PP, you just need to compare prices for the 5270 and the dato perp, saw both of these models in real life and I preferred the Lange...

Quote:
Originally Posted by murcielago_boy View Post
On a separate note I do NOT believe that guff that Mr Stern is espousing about all models being wait listed. I have a real concern about overproduction of ALL PP models and have got a feeling that Patek is currently heading the way of AP - a "one-watch" company - namely the Nautilus. (anyone own an AP which isn't an RO or an ROO?)

From experience, there is NO (non-Nautilus) PP which is "hard to get" other than the 5131.
The grand complications which were once by application can be had by anyone.
Their once-iconic PCC now sits in shop windows for months.
And their are heavy discounts to be enjoyed by customers prepared to discreetly ask an AD to do deals.

Yes, ALS doesn't compare but Thierry is making a mess of things.
And this comes from someone is rather heavily invested in the brand himself. Beyond around $30,000 I wouldn't consider a watch from any other brand no matter what it's respective merits...

PP beats ALS but they are not what they were. CUT PRODUCTION. MAKE THEM EXCLUSIVE AGAIN AND PROTECT YOUR COLLECTORS.

ARE YOU LISTENING MR STERN?
Why were they very exclusive before? My opinion is that you didn't have the russians and chinese, talking about 20-30 years ago for the russians and not so long ago for the chinese, once these guys started to get in the game they became huge buyers, so the high end brands started to raise production, in Russia they have a crisis now, and the chinese government has started to look in a very bad way at their rich citizens buying very high priced watches when a huge part of the country has little to eat, so many of them have stopped buying, for me that is the 2 main reasons of the mini crisis that the watch industry is going through at the moment, with the russians and chinese partly out of the game it totally changes the market, must be terrible for brands like Ulysses Nardin which have a huge following mainly in Russia/Ukraine, seems that Patek is doing quite fine.

About PP become a "1 model brand" like AP with the RO/ROO line I really don't think so, sure that line has a big part in their line up, but no way near compared to AP, we will see in the future but I think we should see them continue to make the same percentage levels of Nautilus vs comp and grand comp, but everything is possible after all, only the future will tell...

Sure Patek is going more in the mainstream than before, for that I don't know if more people can afford them in Western countries than before, or if because of sky rocketing prices in auctions some people who never would have thought to invest high prices in watches have started to do so some time ago, it is clear that apart from Nautilus and very few other models the idea that a Patek holds or increases it's value has become a certain joke, not sure if T Stern is to blame as in the models and novelties proposed they are still IMO the best brand out there, now for exclusivity, QC, service time, finishing and other things sure they might not be to the level of what they were before, still a great brand from what I can see
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Old 18 May 2016, 12:49 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by murcielago_boy View Post
On a separate note I do NOT believe that guff that Mr Stern is espousing about all models being wait listed. I have a real concern about overproduction of ALL PP models and have got a feeling that Patek is currently heading the way of AP - a "one-watch" company - namely the Nautilus. (anyone own an AP which isn't an RO or an ROO?)

From experience, there is NO (non-Nautilus) PP which is "hard to get" other than the 5131.
The grand complications which were once by application can be had by anyone.
Their once-iconic PCC now sits in shop windows for months.
And their are heavy discounts to be enjoyed by customers prepared to discreetly ask an AD to do deals.

Yes, ALS doesn't compare but Thierry is making a mess of things.
And this comes from someone is rather heavily invested in the brand himself. Beyond around $30,000 I wouldn't consider a watch from any other brand no matter what it's respective merits...

PP beats ALS but they are not what they were. CUT PRODUCTION. MAKE THEM EXCLUSIVE AGAIN AND PROTECT YOUR COLLECTORS.

ARE YOU LISTENING MR STERN?
If he said "all" models then that is just dumb! You can walk into WoS in Regent street and pick up a 5170 and a few PC with no problem at all. In fact as a watch is longer in production then obviously it becomes more available. I can't think the last time I didn't see a 5170 at an AD. Think you may struggle for some non Nautilus like 5167A, 5205 black dial, 5524, 6000G blue dial and a few others.....
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Old 18 May 2016, 12:57 AM   #130
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Sadly, the answer is probably no.

You bring up some excellent points/comments.
Well this was the first time in long while where he said at Basel that production would be kept the same. So maybe that's a step in the right direction but I wouldn't bet on a cut anytime soon!
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Old 18 May 2016, 01:23 AM   #131
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Well this was the first time in long while where he said at Basel that production would be kept the same. So maybe that's a step in the right direction but I wouldn't bet on a cut anytime soon!
Well since the chinese and russians are buying much less they are still over producing, which means that more and more people buying non Nautilus models will see the second hand value of their watch fall and this is not good for the brand or for collectors at all, as we all know here prices are determined from the offer/demand ratio, will we see one day Patek watches loosing on the second hand market huge sums like most other brands? Some models have already started to go that way...
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Old 18 May 2016, 01:51 AM   #132
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If he said "all" models then that is just dumb! You can walk into WoS in Regent street and pick up a 5170 and a few PC with no problem at all. In fact as a watch is longer in production then obviously it becomes more available. I can't think the last time I didn't see a 5170 at an AD. Think you may struggle for some non Nautilus like 5167A, 5205 black dial, 5524, 6000G blue dial and a few others.....
Yes, there are certainly many models that are hard to get. 5205 RG black dial is one. You'd be surprised ate how well the pilot calatrava is selling. Dealers can't get their hands on one for clients.
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Old 18 May 2016, 02:01 AM   #133
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In summation this is a poll and the results speak for themselves irrespective of comments. 60% PP and ALS 40%
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Old 18 May 2016, 02:16 AM   #134
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Outside of the 175 year babble, love to hear your thoughts.

Also, in reference to AP, why do you consider them "poor watches"?

These pics tell me a pretty compelling case for ALS:



Putting a pic of a "high end" ALS and a "Starter" Patek is not a fair comparison. With regards to AP- As I mentioned, I own several. But every watch they make is the same- its either an offshore or a royal oak- stick a celebrity name on the watch and voila- This is coming from someone who only had APs in their collection. I have not enjoyed the quality of my APs. My bumble bee has had to be serviced 3 times. The Safari twice. The Grand Prix was great but it wore too large and I sold it. Dont get me wrong- AP is still great but in my eyes it has dropped considerably.
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Old 18 May 2016, 02:17 AM   #135
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Lange for me, but I love Patek too
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Old 18 May 2016, 02:20 AM   #136
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In summation this is a poll and the results speak for themselves irrespective of comments. 60% PP and ALS 40%
Comments come from humans. Humans vote in polls.
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Old 18 May 2016, 02:34 AM   #137
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Putting a pic of a "high end" ALS and a "Starter" Patek is not a fair comparison. With regards to AP- As I mentioned, I own several. But every watch they make is the same- its either an offshore or a royal oak- stick a celebrity name on the watch and voila- This is coming from someone who only had APs in their collection. I have not enjoyed the quality of my APs. My bumble bee has had to be serviced 3 times. The Safari twice. The Grand Prix was great but it wore too large and I sold it. Dont get me wrong- AP is still great but in my eyes it has dropped considerably.
Fair enough. Having visited AP HQ and having owned about a half dozen, I have a different opinion.

I think AP, PP and ALS are all great brands personally.

Different strokes for different folks...enjoy
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Old 18 May 2016, 02:35 AM   #138
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Fair enough. Having visited AP HQ, I have a different opinion.

I think AP, PP and ALS are all great brands personally.

Different strokes for different folks...enjoy
Ofcourse they are all great brands and we are discussing minutia. By no means am I saying ALS sucks or anything like that- in fact I hope to own one some day.

But Patek is Patek. That might be subjective but isn't most of this subjective?
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Old 18 May 2016, 03:17 AM   #139
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As we are comparing the movements in caseback, does anyone have closeup shots of the moonphase of Lange.

The metallic shiny full moon is just so attractive. Patek moonphase seems quite plain and aged in this aspect.
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Old 18 May 2016, 03:21 AM   #140
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I still want a Datograph perpetual calendar
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Old 18 May 2016, 03:28 AM   #141
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ALS is a brand best bought for eternity, at a steep discount, or used. Unfortunately, resale prices are calamitous.

Patek seems to be faring much better in this regard.

Otherwise, I hold them in equal regard, and own pieces from both brands. Patek certainly seems more understated, I have never once gotten a compliment on either Calatrava or Nautilus, but got them quite often sporting a Lange (I should add that I prefer the "no compliments" aspect)
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Old 18 May 2016, 03:31 AM   #142
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Putting a pic of a "high end" ALS and a "Starter" Patek is not a fair comparison. With regards to AP- As I mentioned, I own several. But every watch they make is the same- its either an offshore or a royal oak- stick a celebrity name on the watch and voila- This is coming from someone who only had APs in their collection. I have not enjoyed the quality of my APs. My bumble bee has had to be serviced 3 times. The Safari twice. The Grand Prix was great but it wore too large and I sold it. Dont get me wrong- AP is still great but in my eyes it has dropped considerably.
That is why I added a pic of a 5370, beautiful but still prefer a little bit the Lange, though I would be happy to own a watch with a movement like the PP one.
About AP I love the way my ce diver is made, I love the movement but would not look at it with a loupe or any other sort of thing, but I was quite shocked that mine cracked or chipped, but most likely cracked, without any shock, didn't think that was possible, I will write to them in 1 month to see if they already analyzed the case and found out what happened, this is the first time in my life I encounter any problem with any of my watches...
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Old 19 May 2016, 04:49 AM   #143
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One very large collector I know with very nice rare pieces is discreetly eliminating virtually all of his.
Why?
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Old 19 May 2016, 06:36 AM   #144
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In summation this is a poll and the results speak for themselves irrespective of comments. 60% PP and ALS 40%
Well it is already quite amazing that on the PP subforum, of a mostly sport orientated forum, where a big percentage of PP incomings are sport models, Lange would do so well as they have no sport models, sure they have the datograph line and Zeitwerk one which have a sporty feel, but clearly no real sport watches or like PP sporty dress watches, as I consider the Aqua and Naut range.
I wonder what would be the results if they had a certified sport line of models as Patek does, plus they have much less types of watches than PP, even if we just look at the Pateks without these 2 lines, so I think it is quite amazing, I would just say that if I wanted to buy a complicated watch in PM for 80k I would get a datograph perpetual, of course second hand not new and certainly not at retail, other than that, under or above that price, I would still get a Patek
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Old 19 May 2016, 03:03 PM   #145
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Why?
Cant understand why discretely either??? If I hear that Mr Lim of Timbaktoo is dumping his 6300 and his 10 different custom made 6002's and 5539's is the market going to panic?? We see rare pieces all the time on auction sites!
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Old 1 June 2016, 05:04 AM   #146
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Reading this, it certainly doesn't seems to be a good time to collect Pateks.
+1

If I can get a pre-owned up/down datograph for under $50k I'm going to pull the trigger.
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Old 1 June 2016, 05:11 AM   #147
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Which brand do you like more and why? Fact: A Lange makes aprox. 5,000 watches a year, and Patek makes about 50,00 watches a year!

Why I Prefer A Lange over Patek: First of all, A Lange makes almost a tenth as many watches as patek does. Second, almost all high-end watch salesman, store owners, and experts prefer A Lange. I also like A Lange's movements more than patek's movements. For instance, a patek 5070 is equal to the A Lange Datograph, but I believe the A Lange styling is more timeless and interesting. I also think A Lange's movements are better quality and more beautiful than Pateks but, that's my opinion. I'm not saying patek is not a good brand, in fact it is one of my favorites, but I prefer A Lange over patek.
Whilst all of that is true, I prefer Patek because the styling appeals more to me. But I know, deep down, that the Lange is a better watch.
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Old 1 June 2016, 05:25 AM   #148
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+1

If I can get a pre-owned up/down datograph for under $50k I'm going to pull the trigger.
Mark, you seem to have it out for bashing Patek Phillippe or something negative to say about everything it seems like. Do you own any pieces from them out of curiosity? If you do, did you pay MSRP? Feel free to load up on Lange and let me know the return you get when you/if you decide to sell it.
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Old 1 June 2016, 05:27 AM   #149
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Do you own any pieces from them out of curiosity?
Why is that relevant?
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Old 1 June 2016, 05:27 AM   #150
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Whilst all of that is true, I prefer Patek because the styling appeals more to me. But I know, deep down, that the Lange is a better watch.
What is YOUR definition of BETTER?
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