GS Marketing - Food for thought

[sinkholeninja]

There is no doubt that GS make excellent watches. We all love their attention to detail and ingenuity, but I personally think that they could've done a better job at marketing. Their association with Seiko is not something that a lot of people can easily get over when the price point on some references goes beyond 10k.

Toyota did an excellent job at spinning off Lexus as a proper brand in its own right, and since the launch some 30 years ago Lexus ended up surpassing every other luxury brand in U.S. annual sales, including its Japanese and German rivals.

If Toyota named Lexus "Grand Toyota", I feel like it would've been a more difficult pill to swallow.

[sensui]

I think there are great possibilities with GS and it's a pivotal time for change. The recognition is there though in terms of the problem.

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/se...to-be-awakened

Very interested to see where this brand goes.

[Old Expat Beast]

Grand Seiko has been around for more than 60 years, I doubt they'll change the name now. The brand recognition is there in East Asia, and especially in Japan, which was pretty much the only place you could buy GS till about 2010. The rest of the world will cotton on eventually.

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Grand Seiko has been around for more than 60 years, I doubt they'll change the name now. The brand recognition is there in East Asia, and especially in Japan, which was pretty much the only place you could buy GS till about 2010. The rest of the world will cotton on eventually.

x2

It's not about marketing, it's about the history and authenticity of the brand.

[sinkholeninja]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

x2

It's not about marketing, it's about the history and authenticity of the brand.

It should be both. GS as a brand has indeed been around for a while, but their Western expansion is recent and I wonder how successful they'll be in the long run. Furthermore, Seiko's Presage range has some references like SJE077J1 that are creeping up into the GS territory in terms of price. For a consumer it's confusing, at least in my opinion.

[1William]

It maybe the marketing or lack of a coordinated effort between GS/Seiko that gives the felling of being lost in a sea of watches and options. I also think it is time that Seiko steps up and corrects the significant quality control issues with the Seiko lineup. Misaligned bezels, chapter rings, timing issues and the such. The biggest one for me that separates GS/Seiko and the competition from the likes of Rolex/Omega is the inability or unwillingness to make a quality bracelet with micro adjustment on the fly across the brands. If GS/Seiko bracelets matched the case work on the GS then you would truly have something special and an industry leader. Now we just make excuses and go one with it. The further I have gotten into Seiko/GS the less I understand about why they do what they do and while I do like the brand it is very confusing for me and somewhat off-putting. It appears they just introduce more watches without significant correction of issues that most acknowledge. I look forward to seeing where the brand goes.

[DJ2020]

I just entered the world of Grand Seiko (and what a lovely world it is). I have admired there work and listened to the praise from owners for years. But still didn't understand just what level there quality is. Having owned many a Rolex and Omega over a 40 year period. And a real understanding of quality movements repairing pocket watches, GS is Really, REALLY good.

But that's the quality side, and I honestly and fairly think that GS is about as good as it gets without embellishments of bling that I certainly do not desire. But marketing, I do think if they just left the GS symbol and dropped the grand seiko off the dial it may help. I think it's to late to out right rename the watch.

Maybe GS and under that the collection? GS heritage?

But in the meantime, people who know what they are can enjoy them for now at a good price. I like it.

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by 1William

The biggest one for me that separates GS/Seiko and the competition from the likes of Rolex/Omega is the inability or unwillingness to make a quality bracelet with micro adjustment on the fly across the brands.

Lacking an easily adjustable clasp doesn't seem seem to slow down AP or Patek or Omega's Speedmaster, does it?

Personally, I really like the thin, simple, robust and attractive clasps of GS for their heritage line. Keep bulky clasps for divers.

[DJ2020]

I actually really enjoy the band. I find it extremely comfortable and well built. I myself having owned the latest from Omega and Rolex, really appreciate the GS clasp. Same width as the band, very short( not 1 - 2") and is executed very well. Very small and elegant profile. I wouldn't change a thing.

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by DJ2020

I actually really enjoy the band. I find it extremely comfortable and well built. I myself having owned the latest from Omega and Rolex, really appreciate the GS clasp. Same width as the band, very short( not 1 - 2") and is executed very well. Very small and elegant profile. I wouldn't change a thing.

Same here. The band on my GS is more comfortable, and the clasp easier to use, than any of my Rolex.

[1William]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

Lacking an easily adjustable clasp doesn't seem seem to slow down AP or Patek or Omega's Speedmaster, does it?

Personally, I really like the thin, simple, robust and attractive clasps of GS for their heritage line. Keep bulky clasps for divers.

The clasp issue is significant and GS is not PP/AP, for better or worse depending on your viewpoint. The new Speedmaster Chronoscope has an adjustable clasp and we have seen many brands moving that way, Tudor with the new all Bronze BB58 on the bracelet has one. A first for Tudor in the BB line-up I believe. I would believe that GS/Seiko could build a adjustable clasp that is not bulky for non sport watches if they chose. What are your thoughts on the rest of my comments? Marketing/Quality control?

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by 1William

The clasp issue is significant and GS is not PP/AP, for better or worse depending on your viewpoint. The new Speedmaster Chronoscope has an adjustable clasp and we have seen many brands moving that way, Tudor with the new all Bronze BB58 on the bracelet has one. A first for Tudor in the BB line-up I believe. I would believe that GS/Seiko could build a adjustable clasp that is not bulky for non sport watches if they chose. What are your thoughts on the rest of my comments? Marketing/Quality control?

I’m not sure why AP or Patek can employ a thin non-adjustable clasp and it’s okay, but GS can’t. As for the BB, the clasp is 3x as wide, but yes, it seems nice…for a diver. That all being said, I can understand how some way want a micro-adjustable clasp. I’m happy with how it is.

Regarding quality control, I understood your comment to be directed against Seiko not Grand Seiko. Indeed, compared to Rolex’s bad cyclops, poorly painted hands, constantly changing font spacing and new movement hiccups, I think GS has a good track record when it comes to quality control.

As for marketing and the Seiko “universe”, yes, there is some overlap. Sometimes too much overlap. However, it’s not confusing to me and I don’t care much, to be honest. I look for the watches I like. In that way, it’s really simple for me. If it happens to be a Presage, Seiko, Credor or Grand Seiko, so be it.

[DJ2020]

Originally Posted by 1William

It maybe the marketing or lack of a coordinated effort between GS/Seiko that gives the felling of being lost in a sea of watches and options. I also think it is time that Seiko steps up and corrects the significant quality control issues with the Seiko lineup. Misaligned bezels, chapter rings, timing issues and the such. The biggest one for me that separates GS/Seiko and the competition from the likes of Rolex/Omega is the inability or unwillingness to make a quality bracelet with micro adjustment on the fly across the brands. If GS/Seiko bracelets matched the case work on the GS then you would truly have something special and an industry leader. Now we just make excuses and go one with it. The further I have gotten into Seiko/GS the less I understand about why they do what they do and while I do like the brand it is very confusing for me and somewhat off-putting. It appears they just introduce more watches without significant correction of issues that most acknowledge. I look forward to seeing where the brand goes.

I understand some wearers defiantly want\need a on the fly adjustability. As ingenious as Grand Seiko is, maybe they could come up with something or at least a option for the customer who would prefer a different clasp.

In our watch club, There is concern about servicing cost, parts, magnetism and just plain trouble free usage. While every one agrees there is a marvel at how far mechanical movements have come. There not up to quartz standards. But no one wants a inexpensive quartz under the hood of a luxury watch. The spring drive is a step I think in the right direction. But ultimately I think the advent of a high end serviceable hyper accurate quartz will be the future one day. Like the 9F series.

No deviation regardless of position, temperature or magnetism. Service intervals of 50 years, accuracy of +\- 10 seconds a year, some +\- 5 per year. A set price of $50 USD. to replace battery, new gasket and water test every 3 years? That's about as reliable and cost efficient as it gets.

My question is, if it progress's in that direction. Will marketing separate common department store brands from higher end watches by a wide margin? Will people even want a watch? And what will happen to the mechanical watch industry? Will people looking to get into watch's take account of the cost of ownership? repairs\service.

But as the paten on silicone hair springs expire this year, I'm sure many brands will pursue this as a upgrade first. ETA has placed them in many of there movements this year and accuracy is exceptional. +1 SPD is average and no COSC certification. I'm sure other movement manufactures will follow.

[Fencer28]

Grand Seiko's problem is not the seiko name. Is it's lack of branding. Aside from the snowflake, its hard to tell a watch is Grand Seiko because there are no other real 'iconic' watches. If you see a rolex you know it's a rolex (or a fake) because of the date bubble or the fluted bezel. Rolex has numerous variations but only a finite number of classic and sports models. Grand Seiko on the other hand prides itself on making a huge variety of dials with different cases and bracelets. Because of that variety its hard to create iconic pieces that people can easily identify with Grand Seiko. Until GS can do that they won't elevate themselves further as a brand in the US and European markets.

[Dsmith1974]

I don’t think Seiko or Grand Seiko have an image problem.

Anyone who thinks Seiko has a quality or heritage problem is displaying a great ignorance.

The Seiko story is every bit the equal of Rolex.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[samson66]

The line about "Grand Toyota" is so true. Once a non-WIS hears "Seiko" nothing else matters. We can yell "But it's GRAND Seiko!!!" up to the moon but to everyone else it's an expensive Seiko. Toyota, Nissan, Honda all knew to give their upscale lines a different name that has nothing to do with the parent brand. GS should have done the same thing. I don't know that they'll ever get past that.

The other big problem (as many have mentioned) is their bracelets. Yes they need micro adjustability, but beyond that they just don't FEEL anywhere near as nice as Rolex or others. By feel I mean they don't feel like luxury. A Rolex bracelet just feels like quality. The GS feels like, well, a Seiko bracelet. There's nothing inspiring about it. Does its job fine and all, but that's about it. For all the work they put into their cases and dials I wish they'd dedicate just a portion of that work to upgrading the bracelets.

[Fencer28]

The new bracelet for the series 9 cases i.e. white birch and SLGA007 is superb. Although it doesn't taper it feels phenomenal on my wrist, like it's meant to be there. The bracelet is designed with the case to have a low center of gravity so the watch sits perfectly on the wrist. It's the most comfortable watch I have ever owned. It's only flaw is that it doesn't taper.

[Whineboy]

Originally Posted by samson66

The line about "Grand Toyota" is so true. Once a non-WIS hears "Seiko" nothing else matters. We can yell "But it's GRAND Seiko!!!" up to the moon but to everyone else it's an expensive Seiko. Toyota, Nissan, Honda all knew to give their upscale lines a different name that has nothing to do with the parent brand. GS should have done the same thing. I don't know that they'll ever get past that.

But didn’t Seiko do that with Credor? Very distinctive and nothing like GS in style - and I am not talking about the unobtanium Eichis, Fugaku and Grand Sonnerie. Here’s mine:




Having a great time…..

[sinkholeninja]

Originally Posted by Dsmith1974

I don’t think Seiko or Grand Seiko have an image problem.

Anyone who thinks Seiko has a quality or heritage problem is displaying a great ignorance.

The Seiko story is every bit the equal of Rolex.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There’s no problem as such, just the fact that Seiko brand isn’t associated with luxury, irrespective of their countless innovations and contributions to the watchmaking world. They’ve tried to change that with GS, but in the eye of an average consumer GS is still Seiko.

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by sinkholeninja

There’s no problem as such, just the fact that Seiko brand isn’t associated with luxury, irrespective of their countless innovations and contributions to the watchmaking world. They’ve tried to change that with GS, but in the eye of an average consumer GS is still Seiko.

To the average consumer, watches don’t matter. To the average luxury consumer, Rolex is a status symbol. To the average watch consumer, Rolex is the absolute pinnacle of watchmaking.

Who cares what the average consumer thinks?

What matters is the watch. And what one thinks and feels when wearing it.

Some get Grand Seiko. Most don’t. That’s fine. Doesn’t change anything about the watch.

As for what Seiko has tried to do with GS, GS has been on the world stage for barely a decade. With time, attitudes may change. Or they won’t. Either way, the watches are still really good.

[flyboyyy]

Originally Posted by Dsmith1974

I don’t think Seiko or Grand Seiko have an image problem.

Anyone who thinks Seiko has a quality or heritage problem is displaying a great ignorance.

The Seiko story is every bit the equal of Rolex.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes and No imho.

Quality/heritage: check - nobody can really argue that!

Seiko Story: medium - they haven't done a good job getting it beyond WIS's.

Image...here's the thing. Outside of watch geeks, Seiko of ANY version is still a Seiko (King, Grand, etc..).

As others have mentioned, to the outside non watch world as a whole the Rolex "brand" or "image" is that of luxury (right or wrong). Seiko (of any version) to the same group isn't. To them, they see the same brand at Wally World. Might that change, maybe/hopefully!

[duquephart]

Originally Posted by sinkholeninja

There’s no problem as such, just the fact that Seiko brand isn’t associated with luxury, irrespective of their countless innovations and contributions to the watchmaking world. They’ve tried to change that with GS, but in the eye of an average consumer GS is still Seiko.

Who gives a rat's a$$ what the "average consumer" thinks?

[sinkholeninja]

Originally Posted by duquephart

Who gives a rat's a$$ what the "average consumer" thinks?

Average luxury consumer to be more specific and GS should care, otherwise they’ll never move beyond the WIS world and perhaps that’s ok too.

[sinkholeninja]

Originally Posted by 1William

It maybe the marketing or lack of a coordinated effort between GS/Seiko that gives the felling of being lost in a sea of watches and options. I also think it is time that Seiko steps up and corrects the significant quality control issues with the Seiko lineup. Misaligned bezels, chapter rings, timing issues and the such. The biggest one for me that separates GS/Seiko and the competition from the likes of Rolex/Omega is the inability or unwillingness to make a quality bracelet with micro adjustment on the fly across the brands. If GS/Seiko bracelets matched the case work on the GS then you would truly have something special and an industry leader. Now we just make excuses and go one with it. The further I have gotten into Seiko/GS the less I understand about why they do what they do and while I do like the brand it is very confusing for me and somewhat off-putting. It appears they just introduce more watches without significant correction of issues that most acknowledge. I look forward to seeing where the brand goes.

On the point of GS bracelets; I owned SBGA415 and regardless of how much I loved the dial and the case, I simply could not get used to the bracelet. Everything about it just felt flimsy. Ended up selling the watch in the end because of it.

[duquephart]

Titanium isn't for everyone.

[sinkholeninja]

Originally Posted by duquephart

Titanium isn't for everyone.

That’s true, but more than the material itself it’s the construction, specifically the clasp and the lack of micro adjustment, that bothered me the most.

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by sinkholeninja

Average luxury consumer to be more specific and GS should care, otherwise they’ll never move beyond the WIS world and perhaps that’s ok too.

Grand Seiko is the top luxury watch brand in the world's third-largest economy. They're doing ok.

[asiparks]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

To the average consumer, watches don’t matter. To the average luxury consumer, Rolex is a status symbol. To the average watch consumer, Rolex is the absolute pinnacle of watchmaking.

Who cares what the average consumer thinks?

What matters is the watch. And what one thinks and feels when wearing it.

Some get Grand Seiko. Most don’t. That’s fine. Doesn’t change anything about the watch.

As for what Seiko has tried to do with GS, GS has been on the world stage for barely a decade. With time, attitudes may change. Or they won’t. Either way, the watches are still really good.

you just saved me a lot of typing.

I don't care if anyone else thinks my Grand Seiko is a $250 Seiko. Really, what does it matter and why should I give a shi7 ? I enjoy wearing my $250 Seiko's just as much.

My bracelet has thus far failed to implode or fling my watch into traffic- it's comfortable and the clasp does what it's supposed to-
Obviously you're allowed to not like it, but it's not a "fault" or "mistake".

I'll be very happy if GS doesn't blow up and experience the same rank idiocy suffered by those simply trying to buy a Rolex for themselves.

If you think you know how better to run the company than they do, perhaps O.P. you should send them a helpful email ?

As far as QC- is that still a thing ? I've been Turtle/Samurai shopping and they all look fine these days....

[sinkholeninja]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Grand Seiko is the top luxury watch brand in the world's third-largest economy. They're doing ok.

Japan is their home turf, it'd be worrying if they didn't do well locally. Other than a few upcoming micro brands, isn't GS the only option Japanese have when it comes to locally-manufactured high-quality/luxury time pieces?

[sinkholeninja]

Originally Posted by asiparks

you just saved me a lot of typing.

I don't care if anyone else thinks my Grand Seiko is a $250 Seiko. Really, what does it matter and why should I give a shi7 ? I enjoy wearing my $250 Seiko's just as much.

My bracelet has thus far failed to implode or fling my watch into traffic- it's comfortable and the clasp does what it's supposed to-
Obviously you're allowed to not like it, but it's not a "fault" or "mistake".

I'll be very happy if GS doesn't blow up and experience the same rank idiocy suffered by those simply trying to buy a Rolex for themselves.

If you think you know how better to run the company than they do, perhaps O.P. you should send them a helpful email ?

As far as QC- is that still a thing ? I've been Turtle/Samurai shopping and they all look fine these days....

No need for hostility. As the title suggests, this is a food for thought thread and everyone is entitled to their own opinion, which judging by the numerous comments appears divided.