Job advice?

[SomeEngineer]

Not sure if this is the place for this or what I'll get back but having a frustrating day and figured I'd throw this out there anyway...

So as my SN suggests, I am indeed an engineer. I specialize in controls systems and electronics. This basically means the overall control and decision making for an automated system. If robots are the muscles, you can think of what I do as the peripheral and autonomic nervous system.

Ive been pretty lucky in that this is an incredibly hot market for people who have my skillset and even within that market I am personally quite accomplished. I get so many offers and requests Ive had to take my phone number off my resume and turn off notifications for linkedin. As a result, with hard work and a willingness to go anywhere at anytime to do anything, Ive turned a two year community college degree into a six figure salary.

Ive worked previously on a "contractual" basis which can be best understood as freelance or independent consulting, though last year I decided it was time to settle down for a little while and see if I could get a bachelors and possibly masters engineering degree paid for, which I see tacking another 50-100k onto my annual income.

Around that time, I landed a job at the largest auto manufacturing plant in the united states. The pay isnt quite as high as I was used to as a contractor but the hours are flexible and the benefits are first class. Also they will definitely pay for degrees.

I've been here about a year and, while I'd say I'm "technically" successful, in the sense that this is a demanding job skills wise and i definitely have it covered, in all other senses its been an absolute disaster. I think the combination of my skill level and my positive attitude have made me a target in what is definitely a toxic work atmosphere. My coworkers have little respect for me and frequently throw me under the bus or find other ways to make my life hell, like scheduling meetings on the other side of campus (which is miles away) and not showing up to them etc etc.

The upside is that my boss likes me, and i fill a gap in the workforce that would take them quite some time to replace, so my job is very secure if i just wanted to coast until i get my degrees, though if I'm honest, the job isnt very stimulating and I'm bored out of my mind half the time.

On the other hand, I was recently at some specialized training at the southeast HQ of one of the largest automation companies in the world, and was surprised when I was approached by the instructors and asked if I'd like to come on board with them and teach. They said they were impressed in my skill level but especially my willingness to help other students and ability to explain concepts when others were falling behind.

This all sounds great and Id never given a thought to teaching but I admit it makes sense, I'm a positive, approachable guy and lets just face it...most engineers arent. This could be pretty rewarding and would definitely look fantastic on a resume, even if I decided it wasnt for me down the road. Also they said they pay for degrees, and it would get me back traveling almost all the time. I definitely prefer this to coming in to the same office day in, day out..

So I said I'd think about it and they flew me out to talk to some managers and had me give a presentation which went well. We are now at the stage where they are trying to put together an offer and I'm running into two things ive never experienced before:

1, my future boss would like to speak with my current boss as, honestly, they are definitely poaching me and its a shady move (albeit one that happens every day in this field) that could lose them alot of business with my current company. I get the sense that they want to try and be diplomatic and offer to compensate my company for the training they sent me to, which is a nice gesture, but I told them I'm uncomfortable with them speaking with someone at my company about me leaving before a deal was made, which they have agreed to.

2, they have put me intouch with what I gather is the negotiator, who at first offered me a decent salary with a 10% bonus, but when I countered with a slightly higher salary, came back saying that they could do it but that the bonus was a miscommunication and that that actually wasnt a part of the deal. I told them that my current bonus is along the same lines so theyd either have to do the higher salary with a bonus, or i offered to split the difference with them and attach a 5% increase to the base salary with no bonus. Still, a 10% bonus is a pretty big miscommunication and a rather odd thing to only extend to certain members of a given department but not others, no?

Do these two things sound fishy to you guys or am I just being paranoid? Fishy or not, would you bail or would you stay where I am now?

[SomeEngineer]

SORRY, ADVICE* frigging autocorrect...

[crew]

You’ve got a lot going on there!
I spent almost 40 years in the Automation business, 30 of them with Rockwell.
One thing that I’ve seen is that engineers that come out of the field (like you) and into training begin to lose their “edge” a little. That’s ok, but I wanted to point it out to you.
When you’re not working hands-on everyday you, over time, start to fall behind the technology curve.
Also, at least with Rockwell and I assume others, taking an employee from a customer is almost unheard of. Almost. It’s certainly rare and your potential new employer wanting to speak to your current boss is probably non-negotiable if this moves forward.
Good luck to you. I think the positive culture of a company is worth more than making money in a miserable environment.

[Andad]

I have been operating my engineering business in Oz (for 35 years) and I am a bit confused.

You are an engineer with no engineering degree or did I misunderstand?

[1William]

It is a new world when it comes to employee loyalty and I think that you should go where you will enjoy the work and are treated in a manner that is consistent with your expectations. You hold the cards here. You are not asking them for a job, they want you. Make it worth you while or sit tight. The only way you get what you want is to ask for it. They can either say yes or no or counter offer. Call them back and tell them you have thought about it and 10% is the number that works. Either way you will continue to work and earn and better yourself.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by directioneng

I have been operating my engineering business in Oz (for 35 years) and I am a bit confused.

You are an engineer with no engineering degree or did I misunderstand?

Perhaps the designation of engineer is different in the US

Here in Canada you definitely need a degree to be called an engineer.

OP, sounds like you’re a smart guy and the world is your oyster. I’d turn your LinkedIn back on and start fielding offers

[SomeEngineer]

Originally Posted by directioneng

I have been operating my engineering business in Oz (for 35 years) and I am a bit confused.

You are an engineer with no engineering degree or did I misunderstand?

Ah I see what you mean. In the US there are licensed professional engineers but for most purposes there are no legal requirements to perform the task. For instance: I draft, redline, sign, and approve prints, though in a lot of other countries you need a licensed engineer for that.

Also, the majority of my engineering function is as a software engineer, so there are no legal requirements for that.

Thanks for the responses everyone I appreciate it. I should hear back from the other company today so we will see.

[Time4aRolex]

Originally Posted by SomeEngineer

Not sure if this is the place for this or what I'll get back but having a frustrating day and figured I'd throw this out there anyway...

So as my SN suggests, I am indeed an engineer. I specialize in controls systems and electronics. This basically means the overall control and decision making for an automated system. If robots are the muscles, you can think of what I do as the peripheral and autonomic nervous system.

Ive been pretty lucky in that this is an incredibly hot market for people who have my skillset and even within that market I am personally quite accomplished. I get so many offers and requests Ive had to take my phone number off my resume and turn off notifications for linkedin. As a result, with hard work and a willingness to go anywhere at anytime to do anything, Ive turned a two year community college degree into a six figure salary.

Ive worked previously on a "contractual" basis which can be best understood as freelance or independent consulting, though last year I decided it was time to settle down for a little while and see if I could get a bachelors and possibly masters engineering degree paid for, which I see tacking another 50-100k onto my annual income.

Around that time, I landed a job at the largest auto manufacturing plant in the united states. The pay isnt quite as high as I was used to as a contractor but the hours are flexible and the benefits are first class. Also they will definitely pay for degrees.

I've been here about a year and, while I'd say I'm "technically" successful, in the sense that this is a demanding job skills wise and i definitely have it covered, in all other senses its been an absolute disaster. I think the combination of my skill level and my positive attitude have made me a target in what is definitely a toxic work atmosphere. My coworkers have little respect for me and frequently throw me under the bus or find other ways to make my life hell, like scheduling meetings on the other side of campus (which is miles away) and not showing up to them etc etc.

The upside is that my boss likes me, and i fill a gap in the workforce that would take them quite some time to replace, so my job is very secure if i just wanted to coast until i get my degrees, though if I'm honest, the job isnt very stimulating and I'm bored out of my mind half the time.

On the other hand, I was recently at some specialized training at the southeast HQ of one of the largest automation companies in the world, and was surprised when I was approached by the instructors and asked if I'd like to come on board with them and teach. They said they were impressed in my skill level but especially my willingness to help other students and ability to explain concepts when others were falling behind.

This all sounds great and Id never given a thought to teaching but I admit it makes sense, I'm a positive, approachable guy and lets just face it...most engineers arent. This could be pretty rewarding and would definitely look fantastic on a resume, even if I decided it wasnt for me down the road. Also they said they pay for degrees, and it would get me back traveling almost all the time. I definitely prefer this to coming in to the same office day in, day out..

So I said I'd think about it and they flew me out to talk to some managers and had me give a presentation which went well. We are now at the stage where they are trying to put together an offer and I'm running into two things ive never experienced before:

1, my future boss would like to speak with my current boss as, honestly, they are definitely poaching me and its a shady move (albeit one that happens every day in this field) that could lose them alot of business with my current company. I get the sense that they want to try and be diplomatic and offer to compensate my company for the training they sent me to, which is a nice gesture, but I told them I'm uncomfortable with them speaking with someone at my company about me leaving before a deal was made, which they have agreed to.

2, they have put me intouch with what I gather is the negotiator, who at first offered me a decent salary with a 10% bonus, but when I countered with a slightly higher salary, came back saying that they could do it but that the bonus was a miscommunication and that that actually wasnt a part of the deal. I told them that my current bonus is along the same lines so theyd either have to do the higher salary with a bonus, or i offered to split the difference with them and attach a 5% increase to the base salary with no bonus. Still, a 10% bonus is a pretty big miscommunication and a rather odd thing to only extend to certain members of a given department but not others, no?

Do these two things sound fishy to you guys or am I just being paranoid? Fishy or not, would you bail or would you stay where I am now?

-------------

Here are a couple of pieces of feedback - feel free to PM me if you want to talk in detail. I am a hiring Manager and understand your discipline.

1) do not let the new company talk with your current Manager unless you are sure that you want the job. Salary - everything is fully negociated and you are about to accept.

2) Get the offer in writing .... get the counter offer in writing. You have to see what is on the table - You should not have to interpret the offer.

3) There is significant value in getting a BS degree. It will help you further in your career.

I live in the North East and I suspect that you are working with one of the top 2 Japanese Robotic suppliers products. We just went through a selection and worked with both of them. Both factory guys and the local reps.

Good luck in closing this.

[superdog]

Fwiw, I have two engineers that work for me.

I have 3 other designers. For me anyway, the engineers are the ones that graduated with an engineering degree. They don’t have a liscense. They need to pass the PE test for that.

Now, I don’t know how to help with your question.

But I will like to offer you a job. No joke, a guy with your skill set is in SUPER high demand in my industry. I currently pay a controls house for the software that controls my conveyor and sortation systems.

Want to move to NJ??

[RW16610]

Sounds like a tough choice to make but I just wanted to wish you all the best in your future endeavors, regardless

[AzPaul]

Seen a lot of similar 'this job or that' threads here on TRF, and one of the constants you see in the answers is: if you're currently working in a 'toxic' environment, it's usually best to move on to something else.

[Rolex addict]

I know the scenario and environment where you work. There will be a current employee and former employee at the pub on Friday if you are able to join us.

[Etschell]

Originally Posted by AzPaul

Seen a lot of similar 'this job or that' threads here on TRF, and one of the constants you see in the answers is: if you're currently working in a 'toxic' environment, it's usually best to move on to something else.

this.

additionally, if you were that important the current company would make you sign a non-compete agreement. they did not. one thing i always teach is nearly everyone is replaceable. if you aren't the reason business is coming in the door you are replaceable. even so if you are replaceable to a degree.

in terms of the bait and switch bonus offer from the prospective employer that is an amateur hour move. i have seen worse but i would stick to my guns. they contacted you - not the other way around.

i know it sounds crass but an employer wants to pay you as little as possible to keep you happy and you want to make as much as possible. usually you meet somewhere in the middle. but if i have learned one thing - it is better to feel underpaid than overpaid. once you prove yourself compensation will increase in 90% of the cases.

good luck with whatever you decide, just remember this - the grass is never greener on the other side.

[V25V]

Originally Posted by superdog

Fwiw, I have two engineers that work for me.

I have 3 other designers. For me anyway, the engineers are the ones that graduated with an engineering degree. They don’t have a liscense. They need to pass the PE test for that.

Now, I don’t know how to help with your question.

But I will like to offer you a job. No joke, a guy with your skill set is in SUPER high demand in my industry. I currently pay a controls house for the software that controls my conveyor and sortation systems.

Want to move to NJ??

TRF is now a recruiting ground.

In all seriousness, this would be an awesome story if it were to work out.

[Rolex addict]

Originally Posted by Etschell

this.

additionally, if you were that important the current company would make you sign a non-compete agreement. they did not. one thing i always teach is nearly everyone is replaceable. if you aren't the reason business is coming in the door you are replaceable. even so if you are replaceable to a degree.

in terms of the bait and switch bonus offer from the prospective employer that is an amateur hour move. i have seen worse but i would stick to my guns. they contacted you - not the other way around.

i know it sounds crass but an employer wants to pay you as little as possible to keep you happy and you want to make as much as possible. usually you meet somewhere in the middle. but if i have learned one thing - it is better to feel underpaid than overpaid. once you prove yourself compensation will increase in 90% of the cases.

good luck with whatever you decide, just remember this - the grass is never greener on the other side.

One thing about most states in the southeast is that they are right to work states. You rarely see a non-compete. Personally, I haven't signed one and won't. The new job surprised me with one two weeks after I joined. I was not going to sign anything that would prevent me from making a living if things didn't work out. They could let it go or I could walk. They let it go.

There are a LOT of politics where the OP works. I know several people who have been there for many many years. Hopefully, he can join me and my friends for a beer this Friday. It sounds like we have a good bit to talk about.

[Etschell]

Originally Posted by Rolex addict

One thing about most states in the southeast is that they are right to work states. You rarely see a non-compete. Personally, I haven't signed one and won't. The new job surprised me with one two weeks after I joined. I was not going to sign anything that would prevent me from making a living if things didn't work out. They could let it go or I could walk. They let it go.

There are a LOT of politics where the OP works. I know several people who have been there for many many years. Hopefully, he can join me and my friends for a beer this Friday. It sounds like we have a good bit to talk about.

if you want me to sign it xzy dollars no matter if you fire me, i die, etc. make it really high pie in the sky. i mean who signs rights away without consideration right ??

that said i get the point as an employee it is rare.

[Star Ferry]

you need to get out of there ASAP. you don't have the power to change the toxic culture, and management clearly knows about it but doesn't care

[cjohns]

Hey SD I think you may have lost him at “ do you want to move to NJ”...

[Rolex addict]

Originally Posted by cjohns

Hey SD I think you may have lost him at “ do you want to move to NJ”...

[Chewbacca]

All great advice!

[TheRolexKingofLV]

Originally Posted by superdog

Fwiw, I have two engineers that work for me.

I have 3 other designers. For me anyway, the engineers are the ones that graduated with an engineering degree. They don’t have a liscense. They need to pass the PE test for that.

Now, I don’t know how to help with your question.

But I will like to offer you a job. No joke, a guy with your skill set is in SUPER high demand in my industry. I currently pay a controls house for the software that controls my conveyor and sortation systems.

Want to move to NJ??

You're a "standup" guy Seth.

[joli160]

Originally Posted by Star Ferry

you need to get out of there ASAP. you don't have the power to change the toxic culture, and management clearly knows about it but doesn't care

Yes, ASAP, look into Seth 's offer. From what I read I would gladly work for him.

[77T]

My advice - and experience - has been that technical roles as an individual contributor are always a balancing act. I don’t know enough to give detailed advice, but before I generalize - let’s break it down between now vs. future.

Now
You’ve been on the job less than a year. Your co-workers (who clearly can’t do what you do) are dip-sh!#$. You boss loves you. The company has great benefits. The company will fund degrees. The work is boring. Ummm...do the Ben Franklin, my friend. Sounds to me like the benefits are greater than the tradeoffs.

Future
Your next job may have co-workers that love you. A boss that hates you. Terrible benefits. No educational support. More money and harder, stimulating work. Does that sound better?

Only you can weigh the outcomes.

Seth has an offer on the table - don’t ask for a signing bonus, ask for a Rolex! That may be a nice option.

As for advice - allow me to be general and share some context.

For context, in my personal experience I landed a great technical job upon graduation - signed up with a Fortune 10 Company in the ‘70’s. I was very fortunate to guess the technology upon which to focus. That was luck vs. any brilliance. Then I went through 3 promotions in 4 years. All was great on my results. Things were about the same as your company - very competitive and some noxious co-workers.

But only when I worked on building leadership skills and marketing skills vs. the technical track did I unlock the keys to huge gains. In just a few years I was leading new start-up divisions and projects. My early co-workers stayed on the technical tracks and got pigeon-holed.

Before I retired, I’d hired over a thousand hardware and software and design engineers in a 35 year career. I observed a trend. If they didn’t show innate leadership skills, or a desire to learn them in the first 4 years, they would be displaced by the next wave of bright graduates. They didn’t lose their jobs - just got boring assignments on lifecycle projects while the newbies got the hot new ones.

So my advice is make your shift into high gear at your current opportunity, work on the skills that will serve you over a lifetime. Or choose the next job and see what comes your way. If you change your trajectory, or challenge yourself to lead, you can be successful and delighted.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Brenngun]

My . Meet Chad for the beer.

[G8RDPM]

Seth and Chad above are great guys!
From your post,you sound young.

What are your goals? Where do you want to be in 5-10 years.
Point yourself in the right direction. I'm not an engineer.

Go meet Chad. He is in your neighborhood!

[SomeEngineer]

I want to sincerely thank you guys for all the genuine and neighborly advice. I plan to respond more in detail but I'm really trying to take my time and figure stuff out right now, though I will def be seeing Chad on Friday, if anything just to have a few beers and talk watches.

[walds11]

Great advise here. I’d get out of your current situation ASAP.

Curious how you turned a two year community college degree into a six figure salary in engineering. I thought employers are looking for a minimum of a four year degree.

[crew]

Originally Posted by walds11

Great advise here. I’d get out of your current situation ASAP.

Curious how you turned a two year community college degree into a six figure salary in engineering. I thought employers are looking for a minimum of a four year degree.

The OP is in a somewhat unusual niche field, Controls Engineering, and pay tends to be based more on ability first and actual degree second.
I can vouch that jobs like this can pay well over $100k at this time. However, there was a time, not that long ago, when the industry consolidated and the pay deteriorated.

[SomeEngineer]

Originally Posted by crew

The OP is in a somewhat unusual niche field, Controls Engineering, and pay tends to be based more on ability first and actual degree second.
I can vouch that jobs like this can pay well over $100k at this time. However, there was a time, not that long ago, when the industry consolidated and the pay deteriorated.

Crew largely sums it up.

For some reason (im going to leave my personal politics and views of the US collegiate system out of this) traditional 4 year colleges have not invested the energy in expanding their engineering offerings to more closely align with todays marketplace. Now lets take that statement and consider that it was valid 30 years ago.

Controls engineering can basically be understood to be the intersection of computer engineering and electrical engineering, with a heavy emphasis on the computer part.

4 year colleges are still teaching students to calculate resistance and troubleshoot breadboards, whereas a control engineer needs to have a solid understanding not only of basic electrical theory, but advanced knowledge of networking, complex boolean programming and higher level server transaction management and database handling, robot code and vision systems, process control, radar and laser guidance, and many more just to begin to be able to technically handle the day to day demands of the job. A controls engineer also needs to have expert knowledge of manufacturing principles, and the intuition to act on them. This is something that only comes from working in a production environment.

Aside from the technical aspect, another consideration is that most degreed software and electrical engineers are honestly not going to want or be able to work in a manufacturing environment. Its one thing to be able to code in a cool, quiet office in some khakis and a polo, but quite another to be able to do it on a 100+ degree production floor wearing steel toes and safety glasses and ear plugs because they're right next to a drop forge with fork lifts flying by running into shit and weld sparks flying everywhere.

On top of that you have to be able to communicate both in the boardroom with senior management or on the floor with Joe blow who may or may not speak English or may or may not be drunk or on drugs at the time.

Of course this is all before you consider that a lot of the times you find yourself stuck in Brazil in a tent city in the rainforest working on a sawmill or down a mine shaft in northern Canada or on an oil rig out of Shreveport working 15-20 hr days with no idea how long the job will take to finish so no idea when you'll be able to see your family again.

For me, I've worked in factories since I was a teenager, so a lot of things are just common place to me. Another aspect is that I'm just so happy I found something that I'm good at and that I can make a decent living on that I was willing to take those shady assignments in colorful locales.

So in the end, I think its that, in my industry, being able to say "not only can I work in this environment, but I've been doing it for years successfully" whereas a green college grad will need years of adjustment and training to be useful in a standard context.

That being said, guys that have the experience and go back to get their 4 years and masters are WELL rewarded for it, though overall not so much that it attracts a lot of new people, so its my opinion that until wages rise enough that people with no industrial experience will seek out these positions over desk jobs, there will continue to be a desperate shortage and a workers market.


Sorry for dumping war and peace on you but I just got off work and I've got a decent glass of cabernet and I was feeling chatty.

[Andad]

That was amazing.