New positioning in premium brand watches?

[nachopc]

Omega launched the Omega SpeedMaster Cal321 for a staggering price of 13200 Euros, Tudor on the other side got prices in demanding models 5-6k, for this price you could have bought a submariner or gmt 16710 in 2015, just around the corner....

Rolex increased prices around 15% average.

Clearly Omega is positioning the brand higher?
Tudor is becoming the old Rolex ?
Rolex is becoming a jewel-tool ?

Have a nice Sunday!


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[d-dawg]

I'd agree regarding Rolex/Tudor but the Omega 321 example in my view is not representative of the brand and its positioning more broadly and rather an exception.

As such I don't expect Omega to move up consistently (and doubt it would work if that was the strategy and they tried to do so).

[Alpino]

.

Rolex didn't updated MSRP these days.

Last price increase was Jan.1st, average 8% in UK , 3.5%in US , 6.5% in Europe

[subtona]

That’s what this guy said a few months ago.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0xLkW_Kryag

[Brew]

Clearly I have no idea?

[bp1000]

The 321 movement is a speciality movement, a recreated movement produced by breguet for omega. Limited to 1000 movements per year.

It’s harder to produce, there are a limited number of skilled individuals able to work on this movement and the parts, although only slightly different from the 3861 is still a unique assembly.

Because it is an iconic movement, the bevelling, brushing and finishing is stepped up as showcased through the sapphire case back.

What you have referenced is simply a limited yearly run, with a price tag to match the assembly.

Rolex on the other hand are naturally moving upwards to position Tudor in there at previous sub and gmt price levels.

They have to do this slowly and organically we strong releases. The 58 being one. I’d be surprised if a similar (smaller) gmt and chrono didn’t follow.

I also believe some of the strong colour combos on the Rolex will be reserved for PM exclusively in future. We shall see

[nachopc]

Originally Posted by Alpino

.

Rolex didn't updated MSRP these days.

Last price increase was Jan.1st, average 8% in UK , 3.5%in US , 6.5% in Europe

I know but at that time average prices increased 13-15% across countries


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[illiguy]

Ben Clymer on HODINKEE Radio podcast recently said something interesting: “AP is trying to become Rolex and Rolex is trying to be AP.”

This was in reference to AP launching a 34 mm Royal Oak variant to appeal to women and certain geographic regions a la Rolex and its best-selling lineup of Datejusts that span the gamut on size offerings.

The relevant point to OP’s question is that Rolex has been aspiring to go further up market and exclusive on the luxury front like AP has/is.

[Alpino]

Originally Posted by nachopc

I know but at that time average prices increased 13-15% across countries


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Last price increase was Jan.1st, average 8% in UK , 3.5%in US , 6.5% in Europe

[Harry-57]

Fake patina. Not waterproof. Manual wind. Not COS certified?

How much? Hahahahahahahahahah.

Guess I'm a philistine. But at least I get to keep the money.

[3sheets86]

It's a nice looking watch for about £4,500.

[nachopc]

Originally Posted by Alpino

Last price increase was Jan.1st, average 8% in UK , 3.5%in US , 6.5% in Europe

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[nachopc]

Originally Posted by Harry-57

Fake patina. Not waterproof. Manual wind. Not COS certified?

How much? Hahahahahahahahahah.

Guess I'm a philistine. But at least I get to keep the money.

Tudor BB Heritage is also Fake platina and people love it.


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[Chester01]

Originally Posted by Harry-57

Fake patina. Not waterproof. Manual wind. Not COS certified?

How much? Hahahahahahahahahah.

Guess I'm a philistine. But at least I get to keep the money.

The 321 movement was used by PP and AP and perhaps the most important wrist watch produced full stop. Yes my friend manual wind because that’s the movement that beat out the others in the NASA tests, not Rolex but omega. I have owned many Rolex watches, but they are not objectively better than omega, only their advertising. Sorry but it’s true. I’m not talking opinion so people can save their breath, with the comments unless is based in fact, I’m always open to thay.

[nachopc]

Originally Posted by Harry-57

Fake patina. Not waterproof. Manual wind. Not COS certified?

How much? Hahahahahahahahahah.

Guess I'm a philistine. But at least I get to keep the money.

Also 50mts waterproof!


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[DaveDhc]

Originally Posted by nachopc

...

Clearly Omega is positioning the brand higher?
Tudor is becoming the old Rolex ?
Rolex is becoming a jewel-tool ?

Have a nice Sunday!

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I would agree that Omega is moving towards higher price brackets. Many of their watches are priced above Rolex. The problems I have with Omega is the proliferation of limited editions. I think it cheapens the brand.

To me, Tudor lacks originality. Their watches, in many cases, are close clones of Rolex. So when I look at them, I ask myself what is the point. If I want a DateJust, I'll go with Rolex instead of the Tudor version. Same with their other clones. I understand that their watches are lower priced and that is an argument for value based on quality and function. But I don't base my purchases on value. I go for the emotional connection ... and for me that is missing with Tudor.

Some of Rolex strike me as simply functional jewelry based on price and the flashy factor. But to the credit of Rolex, they have several lines that aren't jewelry focused. I believe that the Oyster Perpetual, Explorer I, and Submariner no date are in that category. The introduction of red text and a cyclops on the SeaDweller sort of killed the spirit of the watch. It seems they were simply moves to appeal to the masses instead of sticking to their own way of doing things ... too bad. It cheapens the watch from my point of view. The other watch that, to me, is sort of like what Omega does is the DateJust. The colors and accents on some of the recent watches seem childish and not in the character of Rolex that I associate with.

[samson66]

The return and ridiculous price of the 321 movement is nothing more that Omega marketing nonsense. I can't believe anyone is willing to pay that kind of money for a Speedy simply because they reissued that movement. The price is insanity.

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[johnorpheus]

Originally Posted by DaveDhc

To me, Tudor lacks originality. Their watches, in many cases, are close clones of Rolex. So when I look at them, I ask myself what is the point. If I want a DateJust, I'll go with Rolex instead of the Tudor version. Same with their other clones. I understand that their watches are lower priced and that is an argument for value based on quality and function. But I don't base my purchases on value. I go for the emotional connection ... and for me that is missing with.

May have been true in the past but I don’t really see that these days. BB line anything but clones. Also Pelagos and the new S&G. And the BB GMT is a completely different vintage aesthetic than the BLRO. Everyone’s entitled to their own opinion, but I’m not seeing this myself.

[Onikage]

The new Moon watch was a good idea. One special edition I can get behind. I just wouldn't have priced it for lunatics.

[nachopc]

They also have now James Bond Seamaster for 8.5k, Rolex Prices!


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[liveralone]

Originally Posted by illiguy

Ben Clymer on HODINKEE Radio podcast recently said something interesting: “AP is trying to become Rolex and Rolex is trying to be AP.”

That’s one of the most interesting, and accurate quotes (imo) I have heard in a while, lol. Makes perfect literal sense.

[Oxfordian]

Originally Posted by samson66

The return and ridiculous price of the 321 movement is nothing more that Omega marketing nonsense. I can't believe anyone is willing to pay that kind of money for a Speedy simply because they reissued that movement. The price is insanity.

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Not sure I agree, are Rolex prices value for money, no I don't think that they are but people buy them irrespective of that.

Is a Daytona worth £20,000+ on the grey market, no but people are willing to pay that amount because they don't want to wait 5+ years to get one from an AD. Are any of the GMT's worth double their retail price, no but people will happily pay that amount to own one.

The 321 is an iconic movement that people want to see in a watch, they want to own one and they are willing to pay to get one.

So what is the difference between an over priced Daytona or a 321 Speedmaster? In reality nothing, both are watches admired by many.

I will happily own the new 321 Speedmaster and have requested one but the Daytona just leaves me cold and will not be part of my collection.

And no I am not anti Rolex I own a gorgeous DJ41 and would love to add a second Rolex at some point.

[DaveDhc]

Originally Posted by johnorpheus

May have been true in the past but I don’t really see that these days. BB line anything but clones. Also Pelagos and the new S&G. And the BB GMT is a completely different vintage aesthetic than the BLRO. Everyone’s entitled to their own opinion, but I’m not seeing this myself.

I understand your points, but I still feel that the clone issue is present. This is more true with some models than others.

Take the Pelagos as an example. I think the general design is lifted directly from the submariner date. The bezel is a Rolex-Design-Clone. The hands are a design clone from the point of view that mercedes -> snow flake, second hand with cirlce -> second had with diamond, crown protectors identical, bracelet mostly a clone. Even down to the text-dial layout. Diamond on top, crown -> shield, Rolex -> Tudor, and the 5 lines of text on the bottom somewhat mirror the Rolex layout. And finally, Hour markers have same design layout with circle -> square.

Good for Tudor to go with Titanium ... that is an original move.

[Brny11]

Omega can price watches wherever they want. MSRP has become a fictitious number anyway for Rolex and Omega. I don’t even feel bad telling Omega ADs that I can literally get any of their watches for 30-40% less, new, on 2nd hand market in <24 hours.

[jltait]

Another voice here for the new speedmaster 321 being overpriced. That said the bracelet on the 321 model is much more attractive imo than the one on the modern hesalite speedy. I’d be all over the standard speedmaster, and other omega models, if they simplified the bracelet designs.

[johnorpheus]

Originally Posted by DaveDhc

I understand your points, but I still feel that the clone issue is present. This is more true with some models than others.

Take the Pelagos as an example. I think the general design is lifted directly from the submariner date. The bezel is a Rolex-Design-Clone. The hands are a design clone from the point of view that mercedes -> snow flake, second hand with cirlce -> second had with diamond, crown protectors identical, bracelet mostly a clone. Even down to the text-dial layout. Diamond on top, crown -> shield, Rolex -> Tudor, and the 5 lines of text on the bottom somewhat mirror the Rolex layout. And finally, Hour markers have same design layout with circle -> square.

Good for Tudor to go with Titanium ... that is an original move.

Well, I'd say when one company is a parent company, you're always going to have some similar design aesthetics. You're not going to see Tudor start pumping out something radically different like PP or AP (and thank God for that). They have a heritage that coincides heavily with Rolex, always will. But I don't see that as a problem, I see it as a plus. The only other brand that is on the same design level for me is Omega.

I think Tudor does a terrific job of adhering to its Rolex-influenced heritage while offer design elements, colors, etc. that are uniquely Tudor.

A clone is a replica. That's not what Tudor's doing. They're expanding on a foundation that it wouldn't make sense to abandon.

[bp1000]

So if omega put the 321 into a white gold case on a leather strap it would be worth 60k then?

The lemania 2310 aka 321 aka ch 27-70 powers those PP watches.

The reason why it’s more in the re-edition speedy is the finishing. Which is also why the exactly the same movement in the PP is 4-6x more.

It’s also why the sapphire sandwich speedy is slightly more, because there is a little more finishing now the movement is on show.

The speedy is not overpriced. Relatively.

[GradyPhilpott]

Originally Posted by johnorpheus

A clone is a replica. That's not what Tudor's doing. They're expanding on a foundation that it wouldn't make sense to abandon.

Tudor is making some of the most interesting watches in the industry in my humble judgement.

[mikkolopez]

Really ? ... then no Omega Speedmaster 321 for me in the near future then.


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[Pim]

In my opinion Omega is playing the desperation game.

The brand does whatever it can to be 'respected' while every WIS can see that it is all make belief. While the trick the less educated watch buyer that doesn't want the ostentatious Rolex in thinking they are an alternative.

By bringing an upgraded valjoux from an other brand as something special
By going down into the mariana trench and claiming to have the depth record
By producing unlimited limited editions
By underwelming us with a lack of innovations

You can try to move into a position but if you haven't earned that position you won't get it.
Rolex doesn't have to reposition and try to become AP because they are happy right there where they are. Rolex and already won the game, every Rolex AD looks like it has been robbed.

In short, repositioning, some want to, others don't need to