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Old 9 June 2016, 09:05 AM   #91
speedolex
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Originally Posted by mementomori1983 View Post
This discussion reminds me of the proverb:

"Beauty cannot be judged objectively, for what one person finds beautiful or admirable may not appeal to another."
That's beautiful. Reminds me of this poem:

"The timepiece patina, etched by days,
Resembles many vintage displays.
Spied close, it seems a work of flaws,
A crisscross, with haphazard cause.
Yet, if a Rolex fades away
An ageing Submariner, joyful moiré
Of service parts so new, look fake
Alternatively it can Easy-Bake."
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Old 9 June 2016, 09:18 AM   #92
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It is my understanding from reliable sources that patina develops from being stored. The real safe queens we see with perfect cases and darker patina became that way from long term storage. You do not see too many dark patina dials/hands with worn out cases, because those watches were worn a lot and spent much time in the sunlight.
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Old 9 June 2016, 01:44 PM   #93
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I think that a lot of the things that are erroneously called patina but which are more truthfully damages can be avoided and stopped by having watches serviced regularly, cleaning out any contaminants and putting the barriers from the elements back in place. I'd venture to say that if some of those "tropicals" were worn the same way by the same persons but they had been serviced at reasonable intervals they would look much different.

I think that unless the lume and paint are flaking off, the dial would remain in whatever condition it presently is if moisture can't get to it.

I might be wrong but it would be hard to prove one way or another.

I guess I should concede that there are some other things that perhaps couldn't have been stopped from happening, even with timely servicing. I think spiderwebbing is something that was caused by defective materials and maybe some other phenomena of changes that are seen.
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Old 9 June 2016, 11:57 PM   #94
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Very very nice root beer!!
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Old 10 June 2016, 03:04 AM   #95
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Honest question. But a bit strange anyway in the vintage section where patina lovers live.
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Old 10 June 2016, 04:18 AM   #96
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Honest question. But a bit strange anyway in the vintage section where patina lovers live.
Not really. For example, most vintage car collectors want the most minty-mint example they can find and those that are in original/worn condition are sold well below prime value so as to be fully restored to minty-mint condition by hobbyists who want a project. So it's curious to some that the vintage Rolex direction is counter to that.

What we have going on with wristwatches is a fairly recent trend towards examples proudly showing their age, driven from that trendy American hipster/millennial vibe of faux authenticity. Quotes from an article on millennials sums this up:

"Nostalgia ain’t what it used to be, as the saying goes.

Lumberjack beards, old typewriters, old-timey drinks, thick rimmed glasses, your grandmother’s knitting, fixed gear bicycles, mason jars for every occasion, workaday heritage brands, you name it – if it’s oldish, it’s in. All things vintage have now become eagerly sought after status symbols by modern-day consumers of a particular stripe, albeit with an ironic twist, under the insidious guise of counterculture coolness.

These are some of the hallmarks of today’s so-called hipster, the caricatured figure of a subculture much mocked in the media and on the internet, yet who somehow persists in having a widespread impact on popular culture and counterculture as it moves, sometimes unwillingly, into mainstream consciousness.


Whew. That is to say, today’s hipsters are nostalgia miners who enjoy fossicking around in the past for cultural items, in an effort to attain authenticity and autonomy (always frantically one step ahead of the mainstream) and ultimately, an eponymous ‘hipness’. Arguably, rather than producing something novel, hipster culture re-samples from history and remixes it into something new."

This patina thing and this 'tropical' thing were always niche vintage Rolex trends, they were important to a few. But there is a reason that a ratty Rolex is so cool for millennials. It says "I'm hip but I've got money bro." We vintage elders have gotten caught in the crossfire. In a good way, right now, as the prices are skyrocketing. But when the fad dies, not so sure that the market won't crash hard. When the fringe jackets and mouse-nest beards are shaven and they move on to mass consumerism, they'll want new and shiny things just like all the prior generations did. Baby Boomers redux.
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Old 10 June 2016, 04:45 AM   #97
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Vintage Rolex are in many ways a lot like classic cars. Some people want them factory fresh (restored), some want them with everything untouched and original down to the original tyres and exhaust pipes (survivor cars), and then others just want a decent classic for everyday use and not fret that every component is either mint or original.

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Old 10 June 2016, 08:35 AM   #98
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It's completely subjective. I personally am not a vintage fan, and while I appreciate what they are, it's not my vibe. Everyone has different ideas about what is attractive....unless we are discussing Kate Beckinsale, everyone knows she's attractive:)
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Old 10 June 2016, 11:15 AM   #99
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I'm certainly a fan of shop fresh new underwear. Not a fan of patina in that area.
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Old 11 June 2016, 02:22 AM   #100
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Honest question. But a bit strange anyway in the vintage section where patina lovers live.
Well who else would be better to ask if you are trying to understand?

Note: I've initially almost posted it into the general forum but then thought that people would think it belongs here...

Last edited by bjavor; 11 June 2016 at 02:22 AM.. Reason: typo
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Old 14 June 2016, 06:56 AM   #101
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Topic popped up on hodinkee today. Nothing new but bump anyways

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/ag...king-time-bomb
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Old 14 June 2016, 07:09 AM   #102
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Topic popped up on hodinkee today. Nothing new but bump anyways

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/ag...king-time-bomb
HA! I want a writers credit for cripesakes, if I'm going to be a big-time internet content provider I deserve to be treated like one. He even nicked the photo I posted in Post #51. Thief.

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I get this feeling that you are trying to get us to agree with you that we need to consider service dials for our original dials because of this notion that 5/10/15 years from now something is going to happen to it. Honestly who thinks like that in watch collecting?
...apparently a bunch of people do. Or at least they will now. "Ticking time bomb". I liked "Going Nuclear" and "Easy Bake Oven" better, but alas...

As the article states, this is somewhat new to collecting and there is very little information out there on the lifespan of a dial with significant patina.
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Old 14 June 2016, 08:03 AM   #103
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To be fair it's the third image result when googling "tropical dial."
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Old 14 June 2016, 08:13 AM   #104
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I can wear my 1960 Explorer, a 56 year old 1016, and everyone thinks it's a brand new Rolex. And when I tell them its age, they are amazed at what good condition I keep it in, they give me props for coveting and preserving such an interesting timepiece.

Two sides to the same coin. That's what makes the hobby fun.
Do you feel, I dunno, deceptive not telling them that the dial and hands are service parts and not 56 years old? Just curious
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Old 14 June 2016, 09:03 AM   #105
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Do you feel, I dunno, deceptive not telling them that the dial and hands are service parts and not 56 years old? Just curious
Not at all. The watch presents itself as it did when it left the factory in 1960, I just choose to keep it in mint condition instead of looking all ratty and aged. It's a matter of personal preference. And, by the way, it's what Rolex prefers as well. Things like dials, hands, and bezels are consumables, they are not expected to outlive the case and movement.

But let me ask you, when you put on Sergeant Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band through your iPhone you do you tell your friends that what they are actually listening to is a digital creation that has been remixed and remastered in 2009? My house was built in 1904, should I deprive my children of hot water and electricity? Should I have left the original 112-year-old paint on the shutters for the sake of originality and call it something artificially desirable like "patina"?

Just like the car collecting world, 95% of those who collect old wristwatches want them to look as best they can. No crime in that. Not everyone is a trendy faux vintage hipster.
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Old 14 June 2016, 09:33 AM   #106
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Oh, man, I am WAY too old to be a hipster, my friend!

And re. the Fabs, it would definitely sooner be Rubber Soul or Revolver.

That said, I would hardly call a Rolex dial a consumable. For many collectors and enthusiasts, the dial is of incredibly prime importance...and value. But, I am with you in that I don't "get" heavy tropical and weather-beaten dials.

In the end, the gilt dial on my Sub will not be going anywhere anytime soon. Not because it's in great shape, but because it's what came on the watch.

Cheers!
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Old 14 June 2016, 10:16 AM   #107
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Oh, man, I am WAY too old to be a hipster, my friend!

And re. the Fabs, it would definitely sooner be Rubber Soul or Revolver.

That said, I would hardly call a Rolex dial a consumable. For many collectors and enthusiasts, the dial is of incredibly prime importance...and value. But, I am with you in that I don't "get" heavy tropical and weather-beaten dials.

In the end, the gilt dial on my Sub will not be going anywhere anytime soon. Not because it's in great shape, but because it's what came on the watch.

Cheers!
Ha! You may not be a Hipster but you live in NYC and end with "Cheers!" so you may not be a faux Bohemian but you are a faux Brit ;)

And while Revolver is better than Pepper, it's Abbey Road that is their best work and The White Album the most enjoyable listen.

Now, with that out of the way...

My 1016 is the exception to the rule for me, my other 5 Rolexes are all original right down to their oil and spring bars but for this watch I am going in a different direction but for the right reason- The 1016 is my favorite watch of all time with it's matte dial and Rolex doesn't make them anymore. What I want is a brand new 1016 because I can't stand the current Explorer I with it's brightwork and incorrect fonts. So I sought out and located a 1016 with the cleanest and whitest dial I could, just happened to be from 1960 instead of 1989, but I love it, it's my daily wearer.

I understand completely the value of an all-original dial, my Datejust's and Submariners all have them, but my 1016 is the exception because I want it to look new, not old.
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Old 14 June 2016, 11:16 AM   #108
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Topic popped up on hodinkee today. Nothing new but bump anyways

https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/ag...king-time-bomb
"Aging of a watch dial and dial markers can take on an almost infinite variety of forms, including browning ("tropical" dials) crazing ("spiderweb" dials) and other forms of aging seen as dramatically enhancing the value of a watch"

Since when did a "spiderweb" dial enhance the value of a watch? They usually go for a discount in my neck of the woods.
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Old 14 June 2016, 11:30 AM   #109
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"Aging of a watch dial and dial markers can take on an almost infinite variety of forms, including browning ("tropical" dials) crazing ("spiderweb" dials) and other forms of aging seen as dramatically enhancing the value of a watch"

Since when did a "spiderweb" dial enhance the value of a watch? They usually go for a discount in my neck of the woods.
Agreed. In the comments of the Hodinkee article someone wrote this, talks exactly to what you're saying:

Here's what I think will happen...

Tropical/aged dials will continue to be all the rage until they begin to fail with more frequency. When money can't be made on age, age will go out of style.

Then the powers that be (dealers, auction houses, market makers, etc), will begin to float the idea that beautifully restored dials are perfectly acceptable - and desirable - just like beautifully restored cars are perfectly acceptable and desirable. You're already seeing well restored cases being floated as more acceptable. This is a recent development as it's become harder and harder to find original cases in excellent untouched condition.

Ultimately, for this hobby to continue long term, and for more value to be extracted again and again from these pieces of metal, restoration will have to be part of the equation. And again, like cars, the quality of the restoration will be what sets the value.

So it's all a matter of time and money. Big money will always justify itself by rewriting the rules when they're convenient.


Sounds right to me. First person to establish himself as the premier vintage watch restorer in the world with a two year waitlist for a rotisserie restoration will be the winner, his watches will be the gold standard, his prices will explode, no different than the automotive world. Me and my restored 1016 are ahead of the curve.
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Old 14 June 2016, 01:44 PM   #110
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Not at all. The watch presents itself as it did when it left the factory in 1960, I just choose to keep it in mint condition instead of looking all ratty and aged. It's a matter of personal preference. And, by the way, it's what Rolex prefers as well. Things like dials, hands, and bezels are consumables, they are not expected to outlive the case and movement.
A 1960 ref 1016 would have left the factory with a gilt gloss chapter ring dial.

Here's my well worn 60's gilt 1016, sorry about the patina!
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Old 14 June 2016, 02:17 PM   #111
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A 1960 ref 1016 would have left the factory with a gilt gloss dial. Here's my well worn 60's gilt 1016, sorry about the patina!






Patina is very nice, my 1601 has it where necessary, my Ed White got a bit too far gone but had it. Just didn't want it on my 1016 which I like in its factory-fresh condition, it's my way of forcing Rolex to atone for the sin of pimping out the Explorer I.
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Old 14 June 2016, 02:44 PM   #112
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"Aging of a watch dial and dial markers can take on an almost infinite variety of forms, including browning ("tropical" dials) crazing ("spiderweb" dials) and other forms of aging seen as dramatically enhancing the value of a watch"

Since when did a "spiderweb" dial enhance the value of a watch? They usually go for a discount in my neck of the woods.
Strictly for delusional sellers I believe.
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Old 14 June 2016, 02:54 PM   #113
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Patina is very nice, my 1601 has it where necessary, my Ed White got a bit too far gone but had it. Just didn't want it on my 1016 which I like in its factory-fresh condition, it's my way of forcing Rolex to atone for the sin of pimping out the Explorer I.
Not to nitpick (ok, I'll nitpick), but, wouldn't "factory fresh" mean a glossy gilt dial?
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Old 14 June 2016, 03:12 PM   #114
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Not to nitpick (ok, I'll nitpick), but, wouldn't "factory fresh" mean a glossy gilt dial?
Yeah, if I was going for factory fresh circa 1959 which I am not. No disrespect, but glossy gilt dials aren't for everyone, certainly not me. The 1016 is Rolexes ultimate tool watch, it's the Rolex Sinn 656 if you will, it only looks right with a matte dial. Nothing gilt, nothing glossy, no white gold, nothing flashy.

I wanted a 1989 model, one of the last of the line, but none were on the market during the month I was eager to buy, in fact there were no 1016's available in the US at that time and the ones I was intrigued by in Europe all were problematic with badly lit photos or dealers not wanting to ship here. Through the forum I found a seller who bought his from a reputable UK dealer and had been last serviced in 1979 and fitted with a RSC dial, hands, and bracelet. That was perfect for me, twas the new dial and matching hands that meant the most to me and it was a quick and easy transaction face to face in New York, got to see the watch before I paid for it.
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Old 14 June 2016, 05:09 PM   #115
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Yeah, if I was going for factory fresh circa 1959 which I am not. No disrespect, but glossy gilt dials aren't for everyone, certainly not me. The 1016 is Rolexes ultimate tool watch, it's the Rolex Sinn 656 if you will, it only looks right with a matte dial. Nothing gilt, nothing glossy, no white gold, nothing flashy.
I think I will leave my comments here. Until around 1966-1967 nearly all the famous Rolex "tool" watches, Explorer, GMT- Master and Submariner had gloss gilt dials. This is the history of these watches. What a Sinn 656 has to do with the topic I'm not sure.
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Old 14 June 2016, 07:45 PM   #116
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In total seriousness, you're equating knocks and dings in a watch case, plus dial deterioration - yes, I mean "getting worse" - to fine art of the sort you find in museums? And citing the Certina in u/Frogman4me's post as a stunning example of this? Museums employ professional restorers...just because dirt is old doesn't mean it's valuable.

With respect, gentlemen, I think you have taken this no-restoration idea too far. For most people flaking paint is no more acceptable on a watch dial than on the front door to their house, and missing lume on hands to the extent where you think of mediaeval diseases when seeing them, is just plain ugly. Would you drive a car with rusty wheels, calling the rust "patina"? Keep burned-out headlamps on the Jag just because they're original rather than replacing them? Broke a side mirror in the sixties, so just leave it like that for fifty years in the name of tradition? I'm glad none of you was involved with rewiring my electrical system!

I can hardly take you guys seriously when you recommend not restoring watches as in this thread - "leave it as is", when the dial's been sandpapered! Maybe it was OLD AUTHENTIC VINTAGE sandpaper though eh http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=471436

Anyway, just thought I'd give the opinion from the other side of the Great Divide.
Hey, you live in Canada. I own and use pieces of furniture older than your country.
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Old 14 June 2016, 09:39 PM   #117
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Hey, you live in Canada. I own and use pieces of furniture older than your country.
Lots of us moved here from where you are, and you'd be hard-pressed to find one of us that doesn't believe it's a large improvement over Pudding Island - all the members of the various branches of our family that made their way here agree, none of us would move back, not one. Nice to go back and visit frequently, sure, but we're Canadians now.

With respect to your furniture comment, me too! Betcha lots of us here on TRF have nice stuff and the knowledge to appreciate it, lucky us! Even if we disagree slightly on the finer points of dial patina.
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Old 14 June 2016, 11:15 PM   #118
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I think I will leave my comments here. Until around 1966-1967 nearly all the famous Rolex "tool" watches, Explorer, GMT- Master and Submariner had gloss gilt dials. This is the history of these watches. What a Sinn 656 has to do with the topic I'm not sure.
Outside of the Rolex world the Sinn 656 is thought to be one of the purest examples of a tool watch available today. I love it, owned it, but didn't like the step-down from Rolex. The 1016 is the closest thing Rolex has ever made to a pure tool watch, it clearly inspired the 656, but the only way to get a 'new' one is to get an old one with a service dial.
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Old 15 June 2016, 06:29 AM   #119
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With respect to your furniture comment, me too! Betcha lots of us here on TRF have nice stuff and the knowledge to appreciate it, lucky us! Even if we disagree slightly on the finer points of dial patina.
Back to the Hodinkee post, some interesting comments from readers including this one about "fake patina" as a way to drive up prices:

"That was an interesting article. But it failed to address the major issue in the current market: fake patina... And I am sure you guys are very aware of oven and UV artificial dial ageing techniques...

Today, it looks like 50 % of straight lugs Speedmasters, 4 digits Submariners
and Daytonas are 'tropical', commanding a 100% premium vs a nicely, softly aged example, while 10 years ago these tropicals where nowhere to be seen. I can't believe that this patina developed suddenly after 2010 ;-). And I am sure you are also informed of the pros who bake these dials....
Not to mention the fake-patinated / bleached bezels to match the fake patinated / overcooked dials...

I hope that in 5 years time the market will swing back after most of the average dials will have been manipulated into some form of tropic / spider / shadow (or whatever those artificial patinas are called these days), and that the truly, original, untouched, preserved dials will take over this masquerade!


Unless you're the original owner, how do you know that the vintage watch you just bought hasn't been broiled to bring out the custard lume? This doesn't sound very 'authentic'.
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Old 15 June 2016, 06:48 AM   #120
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I personally believe that we are driven to love patina by those geniuses who (behind the scenes) have orchestrated converting horological tools into collectible pieces of art. In other words... skilled marketing designed to create value for modern versions of watches has resulted (inadvertently) in tremendous value being added to vintage pieces. That added value causes us to find beauty in them. The result (imho) is reduced sales of new watches. (Down 30% year over year based on March numbers). Watches have become cooler than trading cards ever were when I was a kid.

Museum purchases that set records with the goal of driving sales of new watches at authorized dealers has inexplicably resulted in an explosive growth in the secondary and vintage marketplaces - which reduces demand for newly produced watches. Just my opinion.
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