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Old 12 November 2011, 06:07 AM   #61
jedly1
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Hey

Good morning ochi,

Have I seen one before ... no, it would be better for sure of I had some more would add corroboration , especially if they had tangible provenance

You will note from my original post that I was commenting from memory ... And pleasantly provided the nearest special issue watch ( in year terms) that could help your research for compatibles if you wanted to do some more digging.

The 6538a maybe isn't the best example to use as it has been it's own subject of debate for quite some time, and anyway shows a full serial.

It is simple how a piece like this works in our community A watch like this without provenance is incorrect unless/ until corroborated ... In some way...to what degree will vary ...maybe just the story from the seller if it's a trustworthy source .. Maybe just the little details you can piece together .. Similar engraving style to known pIeces, the engravers hole, the font and style of inner numbers .... None of these are damming or conclusively supporting either way as all can be faked ... But they are little things that can be added the plus or minus side of the equation.... Maybe writing to Geneva,

Playing guessing games, and enjoying to imagine what it could be is good fun .. And I'm sure the research and digging will bring lots of fun and maybe even a solid conclusion , I wish you well on the search as I did with your friends 6538.

My advice to you was simply if you are weighing up to buy or not .. Do not pay a premium as there is nothing in front of you at all that suggests the engraving wasn't done last year ...

Ps I did say check the 3 digit thing as I was away from my files .., plea tell us more about the 6611..

That maybe isn't the best watch of mil provenance to use as an example


Maybe you have also discussed in length with some of the best n renown...
experts in Italy regarding Vintage Rolex...
Have they not published this pic showing the particular CB engraving...
on a Vintage Rolex watch...?
Do you notice too...the absence of engraver marker hole...?






Also...are you sure...
a 3 last digits of S/nos. engraving inside the CB cover...
is for 60s watches...only?





Please advise...TQ.[/QUOTE]
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Old 12 November 2011, 06:29 AM   #62
jedly1
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Sorry a bit edited itself ... On the hole ... It isn't a conclusive thing either way ... It doesn't ABSOLUTELY damn your watch not having it , nor would it ABSOLUTELY prove it if it did .. But it's just one of those little obscure details that fakers seldom add ... And it's prescience would just be one more minor tick that you like to see when putting things on the plus side of the equation ..

As is the three or full serial bit ... Rolex uses both for sure .. There is no conclusive there ( well maybe as we haven't seen it yet) ...

These details all just get placed on the scales of prObability about how you weigh up a watch.

As your normal appeoach to many a piece is very dogmatic and rigid to fit a model you have built , with regards to mk this and mk that ... I am very confused about your approach to this piece ( and I guess the 6538) ... Your normal view that a watch is wrong unless everything is proved 'right ' about it ..then this you seem to want to believe / claim is correct unless it can be proven it's not, ... This seems a real contradiction in thinking ..
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Old 12 November 2011, 07:47 AM   #63
marcello pisani
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jedly1 View Post



The 6538a maybe isn't the best example to use as it has been it's own subject of debate for quite some time, and anyway shows a full serial.

It is simple how a piece like this works in our community A watch like this without provenance is incorrect unless/ until corroborated ... In some way...to what degree will vary ...maybe just the story from the seller if it's a trustworthy source .. Maybe just the little details you can piece together .. Similar engraving style to known pIeces, the engravers hole, the font and style of inner numbers .... None of these are damming or conclusively supporting either way as all can be faked ... But they are little things that can be added the plus or minus side of the equation.... Maybe writing to Geneva,

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Old 19 November 2011, 03:41 AM   #64
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Err Buddies...Orchi has since wondered...
why the outside of this 6611B Case Back cover is not engraved with the late...
Mr. Hans Wilsdorf's...FULL name.





Now perhaps Orchi has found the answer...

Here are some images of Rolex letters found...
with the personal signature of the Late Mr. Hans Wilsdorf...

These Rolex letters carry his personal signature...
signed as simply..."H.WILSDORF"...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 02_wilsdorf1jpg.JPG (89.7 KB, 242 views)
File Type: jpg Lot-132-Hans-Wilsdorf-letter-to-K-Adenauer.jpg (101.0 KB, 242 views)
File Type: jpg order1lg-300x214.jpg (19.6 KB, 242 views)
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Old 19 November 2011, 03:48 AM   #65
MonBK
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Great find buddy Orchi.

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Old 19 November 2011, 04:02 AM   #66
Orchi
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Originally Posted by MonBK View Post
Great find buddy Orchi.

Err Buddy...thanks very much for your encouragement...

On another note...
the kindest teacher whom Orchi regards very highly of...
as being one of the truest experts n best collectors of Vintage watches...
has written to Orchi regarding this particular 6611B watch...

In his own words...he replied...
"Your watch is very interesting, the Rolex engraving is good..."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIMijhvMVMA
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Old 19 November 2011, 04:04 AM   #67
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[QUOTE=Orchi;2877915]Err Buddy...thanks very much for your encouragement...

On another note...
the kindest teacher whom Orchi regards very highly of...
as being one of the truest experts n best collectors of Vintage watches...
has written to Orchi regarding this particular 6611B watch...

In his own words...he replied...
"Your watch is very interesting, the Rolex engraving is good..."

QUOTE]

Would that be John G?
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Old 19 November 2011, 04:22 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Orchi View Post
Err Buddy...WOW!!! Bingo!!! Thank you very much for helping...

It goes to add further support to Orchi's belief...
that the CB engravings would likely be correct n original...

Lets consider for a minute the possibility of faking the CB engravings...
Would it include such elaboration of meaning in the exact words...
or details that were intended to be used for the engravings...??

Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to just say..."A GIFT FROM HANS WILSDORF...
TO MR. JOHN DOE or JANE DOE...
FOR HIS EXCELLENCE IN SERVICE FOR 25 YEARS TO ROLEX..."
or something crazy like that...in French??

Why would anyone go to that length...
n NOT include the name of the recipient in the engravings...??
Wouldn't that be better if it was intended to "add" value to the watch...??

Why not use "Collaborateur"...to make it more "special" as the ONLY award...
instead of using "Collaborateur(S) in Plural sense...
which would then means more than one party were getting these watches...
from Mr. Hans Wilsdorf intended for the honourary award...
at the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by f-du-27 View Post
The engraved sentence would go well for " one" gift offered to a group which is not possible for a watch.

It sounds a bit too generic for watches personally given to individuals.

But we also have to consider that people in the past were, like us, not always at the top level all the time.

Regards
I would agree that the presentation is quite generic. I have collected pocket and wrist watches for close to 40 years, including rare and expensive solid gold American and European, including Patek, Audemars, first run Cartier, repeaters and other complicated watches. I have also collected antique firearms, to include colt's, winchester's and the like, and solid gold presentation police badges. Over the years, I have come across some excellent "fake" engraving and presentations, and have found that the more generic, the better, such that verifying the presentation becomes that much more difficult, with less specific information on who might have been the recipient or the presenter.

While certainly not an expert in Rolex watches, I would be extremely careful and cautious with such a presentation watch as we are discussing, unless I had extremely solid evidence that such a "mass" presentation had in fact occurred, irrespective of whether or not everything else seems proper.

A friend and I, in the late 1970's, early 1980's actually put together a number of extremely rare Hamilton pocket watches, from materials purchased from the Hamilton Watch factory, when they went bankrupt. We used not only actual authentic Hamilton materials, but Hamilton production equipment and tools, to do so. The case, movement, dial and hands were time period specific, and to all outside appearances, the watches were "newly" uncovered rare Hamiltons. We made them for ourselves and a few friends, for fun, with no intent to defraud or mislead......it was a fun project, and at that time, that particular watch was not considered to be either rare, or scarce. Years later, I would periodically come across one with an incredible "story" about where it came from, who it was made for, and the like.....all complete nonsense.

I saw the same with an extremely rare badge, that, some 30 years ago, surfaced, without any hallmark or engraving, and then miraculously, some 25 years later, resurfaced hallmarked and engraved with a nice presentation, and SOLD for a 5 figure price. Luckily, in that case, others had seen it before, and so the buyer was informed and was able to undo the sale.

Before stuff becomes highly collected, we simply don't see this phenomena, but when crazy money starts changing hands, we see sometimes very compelling fakes begin to emerge.

Again, not being an expert in Rolex watches by any stretch of the imagination, but having been involved in collecting similarly high priced items for many years, I would, right or wrong, steer clear of a piece such as this one, unless I could unequivocally valid it's provenance.

It's nice to see the collective knowledge and opinions come together here, in an effort to valid such an interesting find.....
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Old 19 November 2011, 05:22 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grissom View Post
I would agree that the presentation is quite generic. I have collected pocket and wrist watches for close to 40 years, including rare and expensive solid gold American and European, including Patek, Audemars, first run Cartier, repeaters and other complicated watches. I have also collected antique firearms, to include colt's, winchester's and the like, and solid gold presentation police badges. Over the years, I have come across some excellent "fake" engraving and presentations, and have found that the more generic, the better, such that verifying the presentation becomes that much more difficult, with less specific information on who might have been the recipient or the presenter.

While certainly not an expert in Rolex watches, I would be extremely careful and cautious with such a presentation watch as we are discussing, unless I had extremely solid evidence that such a "mass" presentation had in fact occurred, irrespective of whether or not everything else seems proper.

A friend and I, in the late 1970's, early 1980's actually put together a number of extremely rare Hamilton pocket watches, from materials purchased from the Hamilton Watch factory, when they went bankrupt. We used not only actual authentic Hamilton materials, but Hamilton production equipment and tools, to do so. The case, movement, dial and hands were time period specific, and to all outside appearances, the watches were "newly" uncovered rare Hamiltons. We made them for ourselves and a few friends, for fun, with no intent to defraud or mislead......it was a fun project, and at that time, that particular watch was not considered to be either rare, or scarce. Years later, I would periodically come across one with an incredible "story" about where it came from, who it was made for, and the like.....all complete nonsense.

I saw the same with an extremely rare badge, that, some 30 years ago, surfaced, without any hallmark or engraving, and then miraculously, some 25 years later, resurfaced hallmarked and engraved with a nice presentation, and SOLD for a 5 figure price. Luckily, in that case, others had seen it before, and so the buyer was informed and was able to undo the sale.

Before stuff becomes highly collected, we simply don't see this phenomena, but when crazy money starts changing hands, we see sometimes very compelling fakes begin to emerge.

Again, not being an expert in Rolex watches by any stretch of the imagination, but having been involved in collecting similarly high priced items for many years, I would, right or wrong, steer clear of a piece such as this one, unless I could unequivocally valid it's provenance.

It's nice to see the collective knowledge and opinions come together here, in an effort to valid such an interesting find.....
Excellent post and I agree with you.
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Old 19 November 2011, 09:00 AM   #70
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Grissom. nice read. In my silver circles i have seem very nice hand-made hammered pieces bear a rather common an uninteresting hallmark and then resurface in the hands of others bearing a Georg Jensen hallmark. its a tough business and nasty world.
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Old 20 November 2011, 04:51 PM   #71
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Great discussion guys

Always good to read the more knowledgable members opinions here

Sorry to see you go Adrian
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Old 25 November 2011, 01:16 AM   #72
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Err Buddies...these are perhaps the best years n milestones of great successes in the Rolex history...
spanning between 1931...n 1957...


• 1931 - Rolex introduced the revolutionary Perpetual Movement; self-winding mechanism that can be found in every automatic watch.

• 1933 - Malcolm Campbell becomes first male ROLEX Ambassador.

• 1933 - First Airborne Expedition to fly over Mount Everest is equipped with Rolex watches.

• 1944 - Hans Wilsdorf's wife passes away, and Hans Wilsdorf establishes the Hans Wilsdorf Foundation to which he left all of his shares in Rolex.

• 1945 - Rolex DateJust (First waterproof, self-winding chronometer wristwatch with the date in a magnifying window that automatically changes; also the introduction of the Jubilee bracelet to celebrate Rolex's 40th Anniversary also known as the Ruby Jubilee).

• 1946 The Tudor subsidiary is established.

• 1947 - Chuck Yeager is the first man to break the sound barrier while wearing his Rolex Oyster Perpetual he purchased himself.

• 1948 - Cyclops Magnifier Lens feature for easy viewing of the date developed for DateJust.

• 1953 - Sir Edmund Hillary and Tenzing Norgay conquer Mount Everest wearing Rolex Oyster Perpetuals, May 29th at 11:30am.

• 1953 - Jacques-Yves Cousteau films the documentary The Silent World in the Mediterranean wearing a Rolex Submariner prototype.

• 1953 - Rolex introduces Explorer wristwatch. Also the Turn-O-Graph was introduced as the first wristwatch with a rotating bezel.

• 1954 - Rolex formally introduces Submariner diving watch at Basel Fair Watch Trade Show in Switzerland.

• 1954 - Rolex Oyster Perpetual Lady-Date created, which was the first self-winding waterproof chronometer for ladies.

• 1954 - Rolex introduced the Milgauss Anti-magnetic watch for Scientists.

• 1955 - Royal Navy divers issued officially with Rolex Oyster Perpetual watches.

• 1955 - Rolex perfects the "Twinlock" crown which screws down onto the case and has internal sealing to give watch double protection.

• 1955 - Rolex introduces the GMT Master is developed for Pan American International Airlines to make it possible for pilots to easily track two time zones.

• 1956 - Rolex introduces first "anti-magnetic" watch in history [Reference 6543].

• 1956 - Rolex Oyster Perpetual Day-Date model introduced at Basel Fair first wristwatch with a day wheel complication...
The Rolex Reference 6510/6511 Oyster Perpetual Day-Date...
with Cal.1055 movement...


Note: Above are extract from Jake's Rolex World website...
a special publication in the honour of...
the Late Mr. Hans Wilsdorf's lifetime greatest achievements...
(emphasis in Italic is Orchi's)

http://www.google.com.my/url?sa=t&rc...K6mZ8g&cad=rja


Examples of Ref 651x...the 1st Generation of...
Oyster Perpetual Day-Date watches...



(Pic of Antiquorum)


(Pic excerpt from VRF)


By the following year in 1957...
n for very short few months...
Rolex launched the Rolex Oyster Perpetual...
Day-Date Reference 6611B...
n 6611/6612/6613 as the successors to the earliest Reference 6510/6511 Day-Date...at the time.

This picture would show...
this Ref 6611B Oyster Perpetual Day-Date watch...
in 18K Rose or Pink Gold case...
has the similar movement of its predecessor...
Cal. 1055...but it is instead marked as "1055B"...
with additional prefix alphabet "B"...

At this point...
Orchi is still unsure of any technical difference...
or what the prefix "B' would stand for...
by comparing with the previous Cal.1055...
with Cal.1055"B" movements...
which is found this Ref 6611B watch...




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Old 29 November 2011, 02:57 AM   #73
Orchi
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Err Buddies...Orchi had some time ago read this exemplary article published in 2010 by Jake's Blog - Jake's Rolex World...
but somehow Orchi has forgotten all about it...
(exactly 2 days passed 1 year ago)

Friday, November 26, 2010
The Hans Wilsdorf Story (Founder Of Rolex)

The Complete History Of Rolex
Part 1: The Hans Wilsdorf Years

...Founder Of Rolex...

The Hans Wilsdorf Story

"Ghost In The Machine"

1881-1960



After reading the article again...
Orchi finds these words said to be translated from the Late Mr. Hans Wilsdorf's own written books...

http://www.google.com.my/url?sa=t&rc...K6mZ8g&cad=rja




After founding my firm in 1905, I went to Bienne and placed with Hermann Aegler the largest order ever booked for wristlet watches at the time. The order amounted to several hundred thousand Swiss francs.

This was the first step forward in our climb to success with which, indeed, the factory in Bienne is closely connected. Over a very long period I traveled to Bienne from London several times a year, bringing my collaborators new and personal ideas, demanding that they be realized.

In this way, hundreds of models were conceived and launched on Empire markets and in the Far East. The new fashion watches became extremely popular, in Australia and New Zealand especially.



In his own words written...
he did mentioned about his great achievements n working experiences...
with his "collaborators"...
n coincidentally...Orchi noticed from some of the last photographs taken of him...during the late 50s...
would show his signature(depicted on the Stone) as..."H. WILSDORF"...





Thanks for watching...
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Old 29 November 2011, 03:15 AM   #74
STEELINOX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orchi View Post
Err Buddies...Orchi had some time ago read this exemplary article published in 2010 by Jake's Blog - Jake's Rolex World...
but somehow Orchi has forgotten all about it...
(exactly 2 days passed 1 year ago)

Friday, November 26, 2010
The Hans Wilsdorf Story (Founder Of Rolex)

The Complete History Of Rolex
Part 1: The Hans Wilsdorf Years

...Founder Of Rolex...

The Hans Wilsdorf Story

"Ghost In The Machine"

1881-1960



After reading the article again...
Orchi finds these words said to be translated from the Late Mr. Hans Wilsdorf's own written books...

http://www.google.com.my/url?sa=t&rc...K6mZ8g&cad=rja




After founding my firm in 1905, I went to Bienne and placed with Hermann Aegler the largest order ever booked for wristlet watches at the time. The order amounted to several hundred thousand Swiss francs.

This was the first step forward in our climb to success with which, indeed, the factory in Bienne is closely connected. Over a very long period I traveled to Bienne from London several times a year, bringing my collaborators new and personal ideas, demanding that they be realized.

In this way, hundreds of models were conceived and launched on Empire markets and in the Far East. The new fashion watches became extremely popular, in Australia and New Zealand especially.



In his own words written...
he did mentioned about his great achievements n working experiences...
with his "collaborators"...
n coincidentally...Orchi noticed from some of the last photographs taken of him...during the late 50s...
would show his signature(depicted on the Stone) as..."H. WILSDORF"...





Thanks for watching...
Amazing !
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Old 15 December 2011, 10:29 PM   #75
Orchi
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There would be no engraver marker hole on a 18k hand engraved CB because the CB would be mounted in pitch in an engravers ball. In my experience most people prefer hand engraving as opposed to machine engraving when a personal message or sentiment is being expressed.
Err Buddy David...sorry for missing to read this post of yours...

Your insight into this special personalized Caseback engraving is very much appreciated...
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