Any 6542 experts feel like helping a newbie?

[5512Sub]

I've come across what appears to be a very good condition, full set 6542 from an estate.

I'm hoping someone could look at the paperwork and tell me if it's complete and I'd also like their input on the originality of the watch.

Apologies if this breaks any forum rules, I'm new here!

Thanks in advance

[joli160]

Detailed pics would help

[Paul]

Hello from sunny New Zealand ..
where it's been raining for a month.

You may have already found this (link below) but if not, it shows a 'full set' that sold by Geoff Isringhausen a few years ago. Apart from the leather strap it's probably a good showing of what makes up a full set for a 6542.

Worth noting too that as was the practice back then, many watches were shipped to the dealers simply as a watch with its time-keeping certificate (without all the extras, sometimes without even a bracelet) . Once in the shop, the dealer added a bracelet, a box, hang tags etc. This meant Rolex could declare the shipments to its dealers as 'spare parts' and not be liable for the customs duties levied on complete watches (a similar practice was very widespread for motor cars). This means a full set Rolex 6542 originally sold in Paris might not be exactly the same as a full set 6542 originally sold in New York (especially seen within boxes and bracelets). That's a good thing really cos it means there's some lattitude among collectors 60 years later with regards to what constitutes a full set for a vintage Rolex watch.

A full set for a 6542 would be very rare and very desirable to collectors.

https://watchcharts.com/listing/2030...l-100-complete

[Paul]

[roh123]

Paperwork is the last thing to worry about on a watch like this. Please show us some pics.

[Kingface66]

No photos???

[datejust24]

My watchmaker advised me that a couple months back a local Cincinnati lady came into his shop with her late husbands 6542’s …that’s right …2 of them. One he wore daily since he bought them new in ‘59 - the other - put into a safety deposit box and NEVER WORE IT!!!! That’s right…a true NOS 6542 - both full sets - I was lucky enough to have a look at something I’ll likely never see again. Two full set 6542’s - which is damn near impossible to see - let alone one being NOS. My watchmaker ended up keeping the one the man wore and sold the other to a local collector for an obscene amount…point of this was that I got the rare opportunity to see what two full set grail pieces came with back then. It was an amazing yet surreal experience that I’ll never forget. Post pics - I can’t wait to see em !!

[zapokee]

How on earth does the OP expect help without info/photos?? #CannotCompute

Hey, can you evaluate this car I've got? Thanks.

[alwayshere]

people come and go on this site. Just let this thread die. If OP has something new then assess it then. Nothing new.

[Haywood_Milton]

Originally Posted by datejust24

My watchmaker advised me that a couple months back a local Cincinnati lady came into his shop with her late husbands 6542’s …that’s right …2 of them. One he wore daily since he bought them new in ‘59 - the other - put into a safety deposit box and NEVER WORE IT!!!! That’s right…a true NOS 6542 - both full sets - I was lucky enough to have a look at something I’ll likely never see again. Two full set 6542’s - which is damn near impossible to see - let alone one being NOS. My watchmaker ended up keeping the one the man wore and sold the other to a local collector for an obscene amount…point of this was that I got the rare opportunity to see what two full set grail pieces came with back then. It was an amazing yet surreal experience that I’ll never forget. Post pics - I can’t wait to see em !!

Sounds wonderful. Would you be able to post pictures of either / both watches and their sets ? A forum full of people would love to see them!

One of mine to add colour to the thread :









Insta : haywood_milton_rolex

[swaini3]

Lovelyyyyyy

[newkidonblock4]

Gorgeous.

Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

Sounds wonderful. Would you be able to post pictures of either / both watches and their sets ? A forum full of people would love to see them!

One of mine to add colour to the thread :









Insta : haywood_milton_rolex

[baumare]

Now we're talking!
Thank you Haywood!

[1watch]

I’ve enjoyed seeing Haywood’s pics. Other than that, seems ridiculous to believe a “newbie” would start with a piece like this...and not even post pics of what is likely a fake.


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[TimeLord2]

Holy shit Haywood! That is something!

[harry in montreal]

Sweeeeet baby jesus.

[5512Sub]

Apologies for not responding sooner, things got delayed and I didn't get better pictures until today.

I can't post links yet,

I'll have higher resolution pictures in the next day or so.

And I didn't post pictures first as I thought I'd end up speak to just one or two people and I didn't have good photos.

Thank you in advance for any input. I've received mixed opinions on the bezel insert and I'm really struggling to figure this out for me.

[5512Sub]

My apologies! I'm a newbie to Radium Rolex and especially vintage GMT's! I have a '67 5512 as my oldest piece! I've been focused on modern stuff more and only going back to matte dial subs!

I greatly underestimated the activity level here, I thought I'd have time for the pictures to come through but they got delayed.

I just posted the best pictures I have, I'm waiting on more as I haven't purchased this watch.

Apologies for being vague to begin with!

Originally Posted by 1watch

I’ve enjoyed seeing Haywood’s pics. Other than that, seems ridiculous to believe a “newbie” would start with a piece like this...and not even post pics of what is likely a fake.


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[Juhuatai]

My god the case looks brand new. It’s basically NOS…..

[77T]

As we all now know, the OP started another thread on the same topic here on TRF. Was told by many that his pictures showed many issues. Then became belligerent towards some, cursed them out and was subsequently banned - and that thread was locked.

He also went to VRF, pled the same case, was essentially told the same things. Apologized for his behavior here. Then began covering tracks by deleting his photos there (couldn’t do that here since he’d been banned by then). This is classic scammer/fakir behavior.

Now is banned on VRF. VRF thread now has those photos restored (along with photos from the earlier vintage Sub effort).

Why this lengthy update here?

The RWI forum has a couple of guys showing 6542’s replicas from different sources - at least one having duped the same IV•55 caseback the OP’s watch carried.

Although it has some clues of its fakir’s shortcomings, it is worth remembering this thread and the other one because I expect the OP will be back in a new guise.

With the values rising in vintage I expect more new entrants in the race to scam unwary buyers with specious stories and faked assemblages.


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[Greglaw]

Yes the scammer started on the watchpurist site I called him out. Thread was locked and he disappeared. Temporarily I am guessing.

[alwayshere]

What’s the link to that? The more information that we have on the database the better

[CTech]

Thanks to all for the update about 5512Sub's status on vrf and his method of operation here and on that forum.

I was puzzled by the way he was acting and, for a time, couldn't understand what was going on, even though it was clear from a relatively early stage that we were looking at either a heavily modified watch or an outright replica, tribute or fake, depending on how kind you wish to be.

It still isn't entirely clear to me what 5512Sub was hoping to achieve and how he was going to achieve it, but I think it starts with him appearing to be an innocent, naive potential purchaser, transforms into him being an intermediary for somebody else's purchase and would end with him appearing to be the victim or one of the victims of somebody else's duplicity.

There are several possibilities, but I think the first post (this one) was a teaser and 5512Sub was hoping that a member of the forum would make an attractive offer for a replica 6542 GMT-Master already in his possession or one easily obtained.

The cover story about the couple who inherited it who didn't know what it was, the grandfather, the original purchase in Korea, etc. were all to establish the fact that 5512Sub was not the seller but was an innocent abroad who just happened to have a stroke of luck and make contact with somebody who had a watch that might give an opportunity for a quick profit.

There may have been some initial interest shown by one or two forum members as there is some mention of PMs, but this clearly didn't go far so then the dripping of selected pieces of information started in a new thread (the one that is now closed). New photographs appeared and there was talk of verification from 3 experts, new evidence from a will, mentions in 1980s documents, etc. These all served to try and preserve an illusion of authenticity while the collective thoughts on this forum and others were clear that this was a seriously suspect watch.

I've no proof of any of this, and to some extent these are just guesses, but my thoughts are that if things had gone slightly differently 5512Sub would at some point have claimed to be able to buy the watch and, as a result of our misgivings about the originality of the bezel insert (or dial/hands/bezel), had negotiated the price down to some attractive, but still believable figure, for example $68,000.

The important part then would then be that he couldn't buy it immediately because of some excuse such as he needed to sell some other possessions to raise the cash, he was being deployed overseas, the vendors were out of town for the next two weeks or something similar.

After the adulation and congratulations had died down, a few days later he would then claim to be concerned about the difficulty and/or cost of replacing whatever suspect parts were required and ask for suggestions about how to deal with this, hoping or expecting that a forum member would offer to buy it (with 5512Sub acting as an agent).

This part of the scam would then involve 5512Sub agreeing to buy it on behalf of the forum member with just the addition of a small finder's fee or compensation for traveling expenses, Paypal fees or some other nonsense so the total cost would now be $70,000.

After some sort of non-reversible transfer of funds and the forum member has received the replica watch the scenario could go one of several ways.

The most likely is that as soon as the purchaser paid for the watch 5512Sub would delete all previous history and contact information so as to be untraceable, and 5512Sub would have made $70,000 for a virtually worthless watch.

If this was not the case and 5512Sub was still accessible and if the purchaser complained about being sold a replica watch he (5512Sub) could initially apologize saying he had no idea of this, was trying to do someone a favor and was a complete novice to vintage watches, particularly the Rolex 6542, as evidenced by these threads where he takes great pains to tell us how inexperienced he is in these matters.

After the first complaints increase in severity, 5512Sub could then say he is as much of a victim of this as anyone, but because he feels bad about the situation he will refund the finders fee of $2000 (in the example), so 5512Sub pockets $68,000.

The worst case for 5512Sub could be that the complaints do not subside, threats of legal action and the involvement of law enforcement for Internet fraud are made and so an agreement is made that 5512Sub will share the loss, arguing that this is a fair resolution as he is as much of a victim as the final purchaser. In this scenario 5512Sub refunds the finders fee and half of his purported agreed purchase price, so he refunds $36,000 and pockets $34,000.

If any of this could be true and it is feasible that any forum member could be deceived in this way, 5512Sub would then have a good model for setting up a new profile on another forum to sell another replica of a sought after watch, such as the 6265 Daytona mentioned in the other thread, possibly mentioned as another teaser hoping someone will bite at that particular bait.

As stated above, I can't prove that this is what was going on, but it fits most of the initial points 5512Sub made and points to a very sophisticated scam.

[alwayshere]

Originally Posted by CTech

Thanks to all for the update about 5512Sub's status on vrf and his method of operation here and on that forum.

I was puzzled by the way he was acting and, for a time, couldn't understand what was going on, even though it was clear from a relatively early stage that we were looking at either a heavily modified watch or an outright replica, tribute or fake, depending on how kind you wish to be.

It still isn't entirely clear to me what 5512Sub was hoping to achieve and how he was going to achieve it, but I think it starts with him appearing to be an innocent, naive potential purchaser, transforms into him being an intermediary for somebody else's purchase and would end with him appearing to be the victim or one of the victims of somebody else's duplicity.

There are several possibilities, but I think the first post (this one) was a teaser and 5512Sub was hoping that a member of the forum would make an attractive offer for a replica 6542 GMT-Master already in his possession or one easily obtained.

The cover story about the couple who inherited it who didn't know what it was, the grandfather, the original purchase in Korea, etc. were all to establish the fact that 5512Sub was not the seller but was an innocent abroad who just happened to have a stroke of luck and make contact with somebody who had a watch that might give an opportunity for a quick profit.

There may have been some initial interest shown by one or two forum members as there is some mention of PMs, but this clearly didn't go far so then the dripping of selected pieces of information started in a new thread (the one that is now closed). New photographs appeared and there was talk of verification from 3 experts, new evidence from a will, mentions in 1980s documents, etc. These all served to try and preserve an illusion of authenticity while the collective thoughts on this forum and others were clear that this was a seriously suspect watch.

I've no proof of any of this, and to some extent these are just guesses, but my thoughts are that if things had gone slightly differently 5512Sub would at some point have claimed to be able to buy the watch and, as a result of our misgivings about the originality of the bezel insert (or dial/hands/bezel), had negotiated the price down to some attractive, but still believable figure, for example $68,000.

The important part then would then be that he couldn't buy it immediately because of some excuse such as he needed to sell some other possessions to raise the cash, he was being deployed overseas, the vendors were out of town for the next two weeks or something similar.

After the adulation and congratulations had died down, a few days later he would then claim to be concerned about the difficulty and/or cost of replacing whatever suspect parts were required and ask for suggestions about how to deal with this, hoping or expecting that a forum member would offer to buy it (with 5512Sub acting as an agent).

This part of the scam would then involve 5512Sub agreeing to buy it on behalf of the forum member with just the addition of a small finder's fee or compensation for traveling expenses, Paypal fees or some other nonsense so the total cost would now be $70,000.

After some sort of non-reversible transfer of funds and the forum member has received the replica watch the scenario could go one of several ways.

The most likely is that as soon as the purchaser paid for the watch 5512Sub would delete all previous history and contact information so as to be untraceable, and 5512Sub would have made $70,000 for a virtually worthless watch.

If this was not the case and 5512Sub was still accessible and if the purchaser complained about being sold a replica watch he (5512Sub) could initially apologize saying he had no idea of this, was trying to do someone a favor and was a complete novice to vintage watches, particularly the Rolex 6542, as evidenced by these threads where he takes great pains to tell us how inexperienced he is in these matters.

After the first complaints increase in severity, 5512Sub could then say he is as much of a victim of this as anyone, but because he feels bad about the situation he will refund the finders fee of $2000 (in the example), so 5512Sub pockets $68,000.

The worst case for 5512Sub could be that the complaints do not subside, threats of legal action and the involvement of law enforcement for Internet fraud are made and so an agreement is made that 5512Sub will share the loss, arguing that this is a fair resolution as he is as much of a victim as the final purchaser. In this scenario 5512Sub refunds the finders fee and half of his purported agreed purchase price, so he refunds $36,000 and pockets $34,000.

If any of this could be true and it is feasible that any forum member could be deceived in this way, 5512Sub would then have a good model for setting up a new profile on another forum to sell another replica of a sought after watch, such as the 6265 Daytona mentioned in the other thread, possibly mentioned as another teaser hoping someone will bite at that particular bait.

As stated above, I can't prove that this is what was going on, but it fits most of the initial points 5512Sub made and points to a very sophisticated scam.

This was probably an unnecessary hypothesis I must say but you could write a good whodunnit mystery novel?

Bottom line is, we have the images and the background to it so hopefully it doesnt go into the genuine vintage rolex economy.

[1665fan]

Definitely a scammer at work IMO….. and yes it will soon be trading in the Rolex world…. He will trick someone…

[Wahlberg]

I posted it in the other topic as well, but WHY the white second hand if these watches are meant to trick people. Why make it (too) obvious.

I'm amazed by the work scammers put into these watches but obviously it's worth it with the current prices of vintage. Sad state of affairs.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by Wahlberg

I posted it in the other topic as well, but WHY the white second hand if these watches are meant to trick people. Why make it (too) obvious.

Because some had a white seconds hand originally? :)

[Wahlberg]

Originally Posted by roh123

Because some had a white seconds hand originally? :)

Obviously, but everything looks old but the hand doesn't (besides the lume).

[rootbeer7]

Originally Posted by Wahlberg

I posted it in the other topic as well, but WHY the white second hand if these watches are meant to trick people. Why make it (too) obvious.

I'm amazed by the work scammers put into these watches but obviously it's worth it with the current prices of vintage. Sad state of affairs.

perhaps the white hand was the distractor? Focus on that and the other issues become secondary.

[baumare]

I find Ctech theory very interesting, including the finder fee return, this sounds familiar with other scam practice.
but I would understand some scammer give it a try with a $10k/20k watch, but a 80K? who would fall for that kind of money after just reading the experts "name dropping" that he used in those tread?