How can you tell the difference between a good / average enamel dial?

[Analysing You]

Hi all,

Apologies in advance if this is a silly question.

I absolutely love the Patek 5131; the dials are simply stunning. It will always be my grail. Some members have previously said on here that some of the dials on the 5131 worldtime are better made / more attractive then some of the others, what exactly do they mean by this? The enamel detailing? The finishing? I know that no 2 watches are the same so each will be unique in its own right, however I would be grateful if some one could educate me as to what to look out for with the enamel dials?

[Sonzy]

Interesting thread, I’m also excited to know.

[incontrol]

The image is slightly different from one watch to the next since the work is all done by hand. They are an image of a map. Some have more “snow” to the north than others for example.

Each dial is its own piece of art.


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[tom2517]

It’s the little details, like many 5131 has small bubbles, the enamel surface is not polished to a mirror flat finish.

Done by hand is not a good excuse, other brands have enamel pieces that are very consistent in quality, 5131 varies too much.

Like movement finishing, Patek is not at the top, but it’s ok, it is what it is, they are still very desirable.

[Chiboy]

This would be a good thread for pictures!

[jon_jon]

AFAIK the cloisonne enamel dial on the 5131 is done by an outside contractor. So there is certainly limitations in QA as it is not done in-house. Patek does its regular enamel dials (solid colors) at their own Cadrans factory up in the mountains a few hours outside Geneva.

If you want to look at a nice enamel dial, pocket watches that are 100 years old would be a good example.

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by tom2517

It’s the little details, like many 5131 has small bubbles, the enamel surface is not polished to a mirror flat finish.

Done by hand is not a good excuse, other brands have enamel pieces that are very consistent in quality, 5131 varies too much.

Bubbles? Not polished? Am sure you can send the watch back for proper repair. Some of my fave jewelry (rings mainly) enamel work is from Wellendoff. If you get a chance, visit one of their dealers. Alas, they do not make timepieces because am sure their work would easily shine through and be of very high quality. Wellendorff's customer service is also excellent.

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by Analysing You

Hi all,



Apologies in advance if this is a silly question.



I absolutely love the Patek 5131; the dials are simply stunning. It will always be my grail. Some members have previously said on here that some of the dials on the 5131 worldtime are better made / more attractive then some of the others, what exactly do they mean by this? The enamel detailing? The finishing? I know that no 2 watches are the same so each will be unique in its own right, however I would be grateful if some one could educate me as to what to look out for with the enamel dials?

Here are photos of two different 5131R’s taken during the same photo session, each is a work of art and each differs in a 1000 ways from the other. The biggest difference is the colour palette used and the depth of colour achieved. Which do you prefer?

[Russell996]

Side by side (poor quality iPhone photo)

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by jon_jon

AFAIK the cloisonne enamel dial on the 5131 is done by an outside contractor. So there is certainly limitations in QA as it is not done in-house. Patek does its regular enamel dials (solid colors) at their own Cadrans factory up in the mountains a few hours outside Geneva.

If you want to look at a nice enamel dial, pocket watches that are 100 years old would be a good example.

I believe you have that round the wrong way, 5131 is done in house and Anita Porchet does the special pieces.

[Analysing You]

Originally Posted by Russell996

Here are photos of two different 5131R’s taken during the same photo session, each is a work of art and each differs in a 1000 ways from the other. The biggest difference is the colour palette used and the depth of colour achieved. Which do you prefer?

Hi Russell, oh I love these pieces. Just stunning, which one do you have? So upset they have been discontinued. I’m hoping that one day they will bring another version out.

In terms of which one I prefer, I would say the first one. From my untrained and inexperienced eye, I would I prefer the colour schemes, ie more use of the lighter colours, I think the blue appears to more richer and deeper, and the enamel surface appears to be polished more? Also I have noted that on the second pic, the enamel appears to be wearing away from the edge of the gold ring? Other than that, I genuinely don’t know what else to look out for.


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[GB-man]

I don’t particularly find the enamel dials of the 5131 to be all that impressive in terms of artistic value BUT the watch as a whole has a really attractive aesthetic that has become a modern icon among WIS.

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by Analysing You

Hi Russell, oh I love these pieces. Just stunning, which one do you have? So upset they have been discontinued. I’m hoping that one day they will bring another version out.

In terms of which one I prefer, I would say the first one. From my untrained and inexperienced eye, I would I prefer the colour schemes, ie more use of the lighter colours, I think the blue appears to more richer and deeper, and the enamel surface appears to be polished more? Also I have noted that on the second pic, the enamel appears to be wearing away from the edge of the gold ring? Other than that, I genuinely don’t know what else to look out for.


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Mine is the first piece.

Quite rightly you have concentrated on the cloisonné but of course there are other major differences. The first piece is 5131R-001 which ran from Basel 2015 to Basel 2016 when it was replaced by the 5131R-010 (second piece) which ran from Basel 2016 to Basel 2017 and finally 5131R-011 ran until being discontinued at Basel 2018. Usually the 001,010 and 011 codes denote a dial difference but in the case of the 5131R it is purely a different city ring. You will note 001 has a larger red GMT indicator and London is on the outer ring of cities. Additionally the circumference of the outer ring of cities is larger on the 001 than either 010 or 011 giving a less cluttered view. 011 version matches 010 but has some changed cities (010 had changed cities compared to 001 as well as Moscow moved it’s hour relative to GMT). I believe 001 is the rarest.

[Analysing You]

Originally Posted by Russell996

Mine is the first piece.



Quite rightly you have concentrated on the cloisonné but of course there are other major differences. The first piece is 5131R-001 which ran from Basel 2015 to Basel 2016 when it was replaced by the 5131R-010 (second piece) which ran from Basel 2016 to Basel 2017 and finally 5131R-011 ran until being discontinued at Basel 2018. Usually the 001,010 and 011 codes denote a dial difference but in the case of the 5131R it is purely a different city ring. You will note 001 has a larger red GMT indicator and London is on the outer ring of cities. Additionally the circumference of the outer ring of cities is larger on the 001 than either 010 or 011 giving a less cluttered view. 011 version matches 010 but has some changed cities (010 had changed cities compared to 001 as well as Moscow moved it’s hour relative to GMT). I believe 001 is the rarest.

I guess I do have a good eye for detail after all
You have such a special piece there. Does it get much wrist time?

You are right I was only concentrating on the cloisonné. Having said that I’m not sure I would have spotted all those to be honest. Thank you so much Russell, that was very helpful indeed. I don’t have one but really enjoy learning about these special pieces. I can only wish that one day they bring out a replacement for it so that I can have a shot at buying something similar.


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[Sam Philip]

Originally Posted by Russell996

Here are photos of two different 5131R’s taken during the same photo session, each is a work of art and each differs in a 1000 ways from the other. The biggest difference is the colour palette used and the depth of colour achieved. Which do you prefer?

Both look amazing

I prefer the R version to any other version including the P. Hopefully there will be a 5231R in not too distant future

[Analysing You]

Originally Posted by Sam Philip

Both look amazing



I prefer the R version to any other version including the P. Hopefully there will be a 5231R in not too distant future

We can only hope that they do, I hope it doesn’t take them too long!


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[jon_jon]

Originally Posted by Russell996

I believe you have that round the wrong way, 5131 is done in house and Anita Porchet does the special pieces.

When we visited the Cadrans dial factory in the Jura mountains, they showed us the regular white and black enamel dials they make there. However the factory tour guide told us that the cloisonne enamel dials (on the 5131) were not done there. This was in 2016.

I don't know if they have a different dial factory specifically for the cloisonne enamel dials, but it is not done at their main dial factory. They also do some dials for AP and a couple of other Swiss watch factories at the Cadrans dial factory.

I suppose it depends on your definition of "in-house". If Patek has a full-time enameler who does the dials at his home, would that be considered "in-house"?

[SL BRABUS]

Originally Posted by Russell996

Here are photos of two different 5131R’s taken during the same photo session, each is a work of art and each differs in a 1000 ways from the other. The biggest difference is the colour palette used and the depth of colour achieved. Which do you prefer?

Originally Posted by Russell996

Side by side (poor quality iPhone photo)

Awesome watch my friend.....

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by jon_jon

When we visited the Cadrans dial factory in the Jura mountains, they showed us the regular white and black enamel dials they make there. However the factory tour guide told us that the cloisonne enamel dials (on the 5131) were not done there. This was in 2016.

I don't know if they have a different dial factory specifically for the cloisonne enamel dials, but it is not done at their main dial factory. They also do some dials for AP and a couple of other Swiss watch factories at the Cadrans dial factory.

I suppose it depends on your definition of "in-house". If Patek has a full-time enameler who does the dials at his home, would that be considered "in-house"?

Sorry, i missed you were referring to the black dials such as the 5370P. I’m not totally sure of the logistics - I know my AD on a factory tour has visited the room where WT Cloisonné dials are done apparently by two members of staff only. I will check with him and revert.

[tom2517]

Originally Posted by Russell996

Sorry, i missed you were referring to the black dials such as the 5370P. I’m not totally sure of the logistics but my understanding was that the Cloisonné dials are done in the main factory - I know my AD on a factory tour has visited the room where WT Cloisonné dials are done apparently by two members of staff only. I will check with him and revert.

I don't know whether or not WTs are done in house, but yes, a few special pieces are done by Anita.

[tom2517]

These are pix from SJX, first two is 5131P, and last two is 5131J. The bubbles are obvious. Quote from SJX "Patek fans will find this outrageous but the quality of the cloisonne dials is not the best I have seen on a modern watch. The imperfections (bubbles and surface cracks) are, at best, on par with average quality cloisonne dials. This is evident in some of the photos. I have examined other Patek watches, like the limited edition Calatrava sets made each year, that are better".

[SW1]

The bubbles are deliberate....gives the kcean texture....my chrono bleau was mirror perfect...just fkund it incredbly boring

[SW1]

In fairness a number of inconsistent dials have shown up on TRF. Now tat can be expected of something not machine made but you have to wonder how some passed QC. Remember tbe "green blob" 5131R and then there was the one with no snow!!

[Russell996]

Originally Posted by SW1

In fairness a number of inconsistent dials have shown up on TRF. Now tat can be expected of something not machine made but you have to wonder how some passed QC. Remember tbe "green blob" 5131R and then there was the one with no snow!!

I don’t think quality control will be looking at the painting itself but instead the execution.
I like the pieces that are a little different - you buy a 5131 because each is unique.

As to the OP’s question, if I was looking at buying a pre-owned piece I would be looking for vibrancy in the dial and a colour palette that suits my taste - that would be my definition of a great piece.

[tom2517]

Originally Posted by SW1

The bubbles are deliberate....gives the kcean texture....my chrono bleau was mirror perfect...just fkund it incredbly boring

The reason why bubbles is one of the worst enemy in enamel is because those air pockets can lead a weakness in the dial that may develop cracks later on, don't think anyone would want to deliberately have bubbles in enamel dials.

[tom2517]

Originally Posted by Russell996

I don’t think quality control will be looking at the painting itself but instead the execution.
I like the pieces that are a little different - you buy a 5131 because each is unique.

As to the OP’s question, if I was looking at buying a pre-owned piece I would be looking for vibrancy in the dial and a colour palette that suits my taste - that would be my definition of a great piece.

Yeah, I would try to look at as many pieces as possible and pick the one I like best.

[goog53]

Originally Posted by Russell996

As to the OP’s question, if I was looking at buying a pre-owned piece I would be looking for vibrancy in the dial and a colour palette that suits my taste - that would be my definition of a great piece.

I agree with Russell completely. If buying preowned all 5131s are not created equal so I would insist on close up shots and trying to view in person. Here are 2- 5131Ps. Mine is the second one and I am very happy with the vibrancy and color palette.






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[tom2517]

Originally Posted by goog53

I agree with Russell completely. If buying preowned all 5131s are not created equal so I would insist on close up shots and trying to view in person. Here are 2- 5131Ps. Mine is the second one and I am very

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I have thought the same about minute repeaters. Not all of them are created equal and some just sounded better than others. I would hate to drop half of a million and got the bad sounding ones.

If I ever buy a MR I would go pre-owned route and hear them out before I pick one.

[ggencer]

Very interesting topic... well each enamel dial is different for sure but I cannot call some of it good and the others bad... just different

[codecow]

Originally Posted by jon_jon

When we visited the Cadrans dial factory in the Jura mountains, they showed us the regular white and black enamel dials they make there. However the factory tour guide told us that the cloisonne enamel dials (on the 5131) were not done there. This was in 2016.

Same here. I do have a 5116R as well which has one of the dials made there.