I think I have an ultra-rare 1962 Submariner.

[Submariner62]

Hello everyone.

I have just joined this forum as it was recommended to me by someone in the Reddit Watches 'subreddit' forum.

I have recently been trying to identify my Rolex Submariner and was having difficulty as I was never able to find one with exactly the same dial. As a result of my Reddit post, someone showed me a link to this watch, and it appears to be exactly the same as mine:

http://www.sheartime.com/product/196...ner-ref-5513-2

For comparison, here are a few photographs of mine (apologies for their poor quality):

Showing the face: http://i.imgur.com/OcIkKtU.jpg

Showing the pointed crown guards: http://i.imgur.com/WouTj34.jpg

Trying to show the 'exclamation point' dot and dial lettering: http://i.imgur.com/HN12xZ6.jpg


Here are some details of my watch, which I have copied from my original Reddit post:

It has been in the family since at least the late-1960s, and was originally owned by my uncle. I have a green box with it, and an outer green cardboard box, each with the Rolex coronet on the lid. I have some paperwork for it somewhere but it is currently missing. From memory it was an old shop receipt rather than any extensive Rolex-branded paperwork.

Ref.5513 model with 'REGISTERED DESIGN 5513' on the side of the case, behind the bracelet mounting.

76XXXXX case number, denoting a 1962 model, with 'STAINLESS STEEL 76XXXX' on the opposite case side to the above.

Rolex Oyster bracelet, with small Rolex emblems, and a '263' stamped number in a triangular formation, with the '2' at the top and '63' below (presumably a date code. February 1963 perhaps?). The end pieces of the bracelet where they are mounted have '64' stamped on the bottoms.

The crown appears to be 7mm and the crown guards are the pointed type. The rotating outer dial has a black background.

The hour and minute hands appear to be silver-coloured, with recessed luminous paint. The hour hand has a three-pointed star emblem in it. The second hand appears to be gold, and it has a circular recess in it, filled with luminous paint. None of the luminous paint on this watch glows in the dark, so I presume it is worn out. I wonder if the hour and minute hands used to be gold and have lost their gilding.

The bit that had me confused until I found that watch on the Sheartime website is the dial. It is an Explorer type, with a triangular 12 o'clock mark, then Arabic 3, 6, and 9. It doesn't appear to be gilt, although it looks exactly the same as dozens of other Explorer dials that I have seen described as 'gilt', but I can't see anything gold on them.

My dial is gloss black, with white-printed name and model lettering, and minute markers that are either white or perhaps etched through the black to a silver-coloured base. There is no outer chapter ring around the minute markers. The triangle, 3, 6, 9, and the 'baton' type hour markers are recessed slightly below the surface of the gloss black face and filled with luminous paint.

The coronet appears to be printed white, as does the 'Rolex' and 'Oyster Perpetual' lettering. Below the centre it has two lines of text printed in white, with metres first for the depth rating '200m = 660ft', then 'Submariner' below that.

Another interesting detail of the dial that I haven't seen on any other watches (except on the Sheartime example above) is the 'exclamation point' below the '6'. On my watch, the dot has been added over the word 'Swiss'. This word 'Swiss' appears immediately outside the minute markers. I did read somewhere that Rolex added this 'exclamation point' retrospectively to existing unused faces, and I think the year of my watch ties in with when they did that, although I'm not 100% sure.


I was originally curious as to the how rare my watch might be, and wanted to find out a bit more about it. Now it appears that it might be very rare version, so I'm a bit worried about wearing it in case it goes missing or gets broken.

Any observations or opinions from someone who knows about these watches would be gratefully received. Thanks very much in advance if you can help.

[watchcrank]

Very nice heirloom. i'm sure Mike Wood or another of the military experts will chime in.
m

[Submariner62]

Thank you. I wonder how many of them were manufactured in this specification. Hopefully someone out there knows a bit more about production figures etc.

[QueueCumber]

Looks to be the bottom right one on this photo:

[soundserious]

Lume dot on Swiss?

[Submariner62]

Yes, it has the dot on the 'Swiss'. It appears to be the Crown '62 dial in the above photographs, but it has that extra dot on top of 'Swiss'.

[mtl514]

I'm not knowledgeable enough to tell you if that dial is good, it looks good at first glance but because these are so rare there are only a few people that can tell you what you really have. They would need to see the watch in person and inspect it to give you a definitive answer. The reason nobody will tell you definitively now is because it fits the bill, smaller dial diam then the case, indents in the dial for the markers etc. those are good enough to get it looked at, and because this is potentially a 100k + watch I would stop wearing it and get it looked at. You are in England so go see Jedly or Mike Wood. In person

[mtl514]

http://www.theoldwatchshop.com Mike Wood

http://www.thetimetraveler.co Jed

Do yourself a favour and get intouch with one or the other or both

[Submariner62]

Thank you for your help. The dial does look in immaculate condition if you ignore the distortion from the 'glass' scratches.

I don't think I will let it out of my sight, so to take it to someone personally would be the only option.

Thanks again.

[mtl514]

You're welcome. The better the dial condition, the better the price, assuming it's ok. I have a sneaking suspicion that it is, but again I'm not able to tell you definitely. Those guys are, but yes they would need to inspect it in person. This thing needs to be cleaned up and put in an auction if it's good.

Jed splits his time between Australia and England, Mike is always in England and has more of these then you can count. Go to the ol shop, can't hurt ;)
He's a great guy.

[GB-man]

Nothing to add other than very cool heirloom and best of luck getting it properly identified

[Submariner62]

Looking carefully with a watchmaker's eyepiece, the dial itself looks effectively faultless. The luminous paint no longer glows in the dark though, but it is intact with no shrinkage or cracks. The hour and minute hands look slightly aged, with evidence of a mottled-looking patina on them.

The case has what I would describe as light age-related wear, but the edge chamfers are quite well defined, so perhaps it hasn't been polished too many times. The outer rotating dial is excellent and still has its little dot at the 12 o'clock position.

It was a bit grubby but I cleaned it carefully (strap and back of case) with cotton buds and isopropyl alcohol. I'm not going to touch it again in case I mess anything up.

[Submariner62]

Thanks GB-Man. I appreciate everyone's replies.

[mtl514]

That's fantastic news, cases that are unpolished are very rare as well! Looks like you may have a very very valuable timepiece on your hands. The insert is called a "long 5" or "mk2" and is very nice.

[jdmi32]

I'm eagerly waiting for MW, Jed or Haywood Milton to chime in.

[Submariner62]

Those photographs do look terrible at full size. I'll try to take some better ones when there is better light later on. My phone camera doesn't do things justice at high ISOs.

[omitohud]

Originally Posted by jdmi32

I'm eagerly waiting for MW, Jed or Haywood Milton to chime in.

X2, or Marcello. 👍


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[themaninblack]

It's a bewdy!

[jedly1]

looks good so far ….but given the rash of these that have come out of UK as exceptionally good redials in the last 12mths personal inspection is going to be a must on this one, please don't take offence at that , unfortunately our world usually starts from a slightly skeptical position and works backwards its nothing personal and given the family history you will have nothing to worry about.

there are a few subtle differences with andrews watch that you have linked to…for example the curled tail on the m of 200m , and the cross hatch of f in feet that goes through the stem on yours.

I'll be in london from friday and up't north early the week after , before doing the run around length and breadth of UK if you fancy a coffee.

jedly1@gmail.com
07711702629

[jedly1]

and for those now emailing asking , what rash of fake gilts….??? and for the OP to understand why there will be caution employed

http://rolexpassionreport.com/15348/...e-rolex-dials/


and please remember the 369 similar , is a 3 year old generation , was sold by a little old man , sat in his living room in the middle of nowhere claiming to have owned it from new and left the buyer in rather a lot of pain :)

[Submariner62]

That's okay, I fully understand. The only possibility for mine to be fake is if the fakes were around and/or being made forty-odd years ago.

That's interesting to note the differences you have spotted. I don't know the significance of those, or if it makes a difference to the collectability of either one, but it's fascinating to learn how important such details are.

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by jedly1

and for those now emailing asking , what rash of fake gilts….??? and for the OP to understand why there will be caution employed

http://rolexpassionreport.com/15348/...e-rolex-dials/


and please remember the 369 similar , is a 3 year old generation , was sold by a little old man , sat in his living room in the middle of nowhere claiming to have owned it from new and left the buyer in rather a lot of pain :)

Very interesting article, thanks. Jed, do you take a geiger counter with you when you go to look at pieces like this, or is there no need for an expert such as yourself?

[jedly1]

Originally Posted by Submariner62

That's okay, I fully understand. The only possibility for mine to be fake is if the fakes were around and/or being made forty-odd years ago.

That's interesting to note the differences you have spotted. I don't know the significance of those, or if it makes a difference to the collectability of either one, but it's fascinating to learn how important such details are.

as long as its real, the nuances will have no real bearing on value or collectibilty , both of which will be very high wether you want to sell it or keep it as family heirloom and just need to insure it, but will help in determining authenticity.

[marcello pisani]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Very interesting article, thanks. Jed, do you take a geiger counter with you when you go to look at pieces like this, or is there no need for an expert such as yourself?

Geiger ???
Nein Danke !!

[jedly1]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Very interesting article, thanks. Jed, do you take a geiger counter with you when you go to look at pieces like this, or is there no need for an expert such as yourself?

a geiger would have no bearing here for a 60's watch

…..but to be honest without getting dragged into the whole geiger debate…. no, I'm not a huge fan of geigers anyway and don't drag one around with. as to the best of my knowledge many relumers/fakers have been using original radium for years ( my watchmaker who is only young has a drawer full of it) so i don't actually see what it achieves necessarily…. a zero reading may make you ask more questions admittedly , but overall i'd rather just trust my eyes and the back story / history of the watch but thats just me.

[Submariner62]

I've just been having a look at the luminous paint on mine under the watchmaker's eyepiece and the paint is definitely smooth. No lumps as in the fake examples of that article.

It's hard to tell when viewing at an angle, but when taking into account the paint recesses in the dial, the 'bead' of the paint sitting in those recesses comes up (in height) to a tiny fraction above the plane of the dial's surface.

[Old Expat Beast]

Originally Posted by jedly1

a geiger would have no bearing here for a 60's watch

…..but to be honest without getting dragged into the whole geiger debate…. no, I'm not a huge fan of geigers anyway and don't drag one around with. as to the best of my knowledge many relumers/fakers have been using original radium for years ( my watchmaker who is only young has a drawer full of it) so i don't actually see what it achieves necessarily…. a zero reading may make you ask more questions admittedly , but overall i'd rather just trust my eyes and the back story / history of the watch but thats just me.

Thanks

[jedly1]

Originally Posted by jedly1

a geiger would have no bearing here for a 60's watch

…..but to be honest without getting dragged into the whole geiger debate…. no, I'm not a huge fan of geigers anyway and don't drag one around with. as to the best of my knowledge many relumers/fakers have been using original radium for years ( my watchmaker who is only young has a drawer full of it) so i don't actually see what it achieves necessarily…. a zero reading may make you ask more questions admittedly , but overall i'd rather just trust my eyes and the back story / history of the watch but thats just me.

though i will say , when it comes to vintage panerai , i believe the geigers have been very helpful over the years.

[Submariner62]

Originally Posted by jedly1

as long as its real, the nuances will have no real bearing on value or collectibilty , both of which will be very high wether you want to sell it or keep it as family heirloom and just need to insure it, but will help in determining authenticity.

Okay, thank you. I now have to worry about things like insurance!

[marcello pisani]

Originally Posted by jedly1

a zero reading may make you ask more questions admittedly , but overall i'd rather just trust my eyes and the back story / history of the watch but thats just me.

this is the correct procedure !